Judaism and Eden and Eve

[Tinkerpeach]

It is very convenient that Jews were given permission to form our behavior around the Torah that the Creator gave us, as it was given at Mount Sinai. Given that the word religion does not appear anywhere in the Hebrew text of the Torah and given that the Creator gave the Torah to the Jewish nation for a very specific group of reasons it would stand to reason that the convience of living the Torah would be included (written and oral Torah) in the process of keeping the Torah.

You don’t find it a bit strange that God only cares about Jews and none of the other 8 billion people in the world?

And I find that is the beauty of Judaism -- God challenges us to discover His will and in the process we help each other with kindness and love, growing closer to Him as we learn the consequences of our choices.

Jesus was a Jew and he debated with the Pharisees constantly. They didn't consider him a heretic. Christians consider him a heretical Jew, but he was not. He was a devout Jew.

He threaten their power which is why they had Him killed.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

For the Jewish adherents
Was Eve a real person? Was she actually unaware of morality prior to eating the apple? And if so, how could she sin prior to having an understanding of sin?

Different Jews have different opinions. I am of the opinion that the story of Adam and Eve is simply a highly creative story meant to teach about human nature. They are not historical people. Like Maimonides, I read many of the stories in Genesis as allegorical and symbolic -- not historical.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think that is probably true. Or close enough. But how does that make it matter whether or not the fruit was originally an apple, or a citron, or a pomegranate, etc?

Or perhaps, simply a very novel tree with fruits completely different than any we know -- basically, the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. IOW, mythological fruit from a mythological tree.

 

[ppp]

Different Jews have different opinions. I am of the opinion that the story of Adam and Eve is simply a highly creative story meant to teach about human nature. They are not historical people. Like Maimonides, I read many of the stories in Genesis as allegorical and symbolic -- not historical.

I think you're the first person actually answer the first question. Thanks. How about the second and third?

 

[ppp]

Or perhaps, simply a very novel tree with fruits completely different than any we know -- basically, the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. IOW, mythological fruit from a mythological tree.

Could be. But my point was doesn't matter whether that fruit was an apple, fig, or some entirely novel fruit.

 

[questfortruth]

For the Jewish adherents
Was Eve a real person? Was she actually unaware of morality prior to eating the apple? And if so, how could she sin prior to having an understanding of sin?

I am Christian because here is General section of the forum. Eve is actual person. God told the first couple that they die, if they will eat the forbidden fruit. It is the definition of any sin -- to become dead.

 

[ppp]

I am Christian because here is General section of the forum. Eve is actual person. God told the first couple that they die, if they will eat the forbidden fruit. It is the definition of any sin -- to become dead.

You answered the first question then went completely off the road and ignored the second and third.

 

[questfortruth]

You answered the first question

You are complicated and advanced person, so having understood a part of your thread is an achievement.

 

[ppp]

You are complicated and advanced person, so having understood a part of your thread is an achievement.

Then I'll let you enjoy your underweaning pride in your moderate accomplishment.

 

[Spice]

He threaten their power which is why they had Him killed.

"The Jews" didn't have him killed. The Jewish politicians wanted him arrested, yes, but Rome didn't have to go along. It was a political play between political leaders with Jesus the chosen pawn, probably having a lot to do with his relationship to JtB.

 

[ppp]

He threaten their power which is why they had Him killed.

Did he threaten their power? Seems to me that he was just one of a bouquet of apocalyptic preachers at the time with some "heretical" views. While his later impact was considerable, his contemporary impact was not particularly notable.

 

[metis]

And right there, in a nutshell, is the problem with Judaism.

There is no cohesive belief and it’s extremely convoluted with differing opinions and rituals, certainly not something from God.

He doesn’t make His message a giant riddle that people have to try and figure out.

I would suggest that it's quite the opposite, although I don't have any irons in this fire.

Judaism uses a "commentary system" that pose different interpretations from various Torah scholars over centuries, which to me seems very sensible as that's similar to a scientific approach.

All religions have rituals, and that includes Christianity of course. However, "your" rituals might not make much sense to "me" if different, and vice versa. And how could one possibly know with any certainty which was "from God"?

 

[metis]

"The Jews" didn't have him killed. The Jewish politicians wanted him arrested, yes, but Rome didn't have to go along. It was a political play between political leaders with Jesus the chosen pawn, probably having a lot to do with his relationship to JtB.

I think it's liked Jesus' disruption at the Temple area whereas he turned over tables and threatened the moneychangers with a whip, and these changers were doing the work for the Romans as it was a source of tax. Also, Jewish leaders were always fearful of agitators that might force a Roman crackdown, and the Romans were often brutal when they did.

 

[Spice]

I think it's liked Jesus' disruption at the Temple area whereas he turned over tables and threatened the moneychangers with a whip, and these changers were doing the work for the Romans as it was a source of tax. Also, Jewish leaders were always fearful of agitators that might force a Roman crackdown, and the Romans were often brutal when they did.

Agreed, but outside of the money-changers tables, Jesus was a quiet preacher that did not cause a stir among the people, but rather spoke of calming patience. However, JtB was a rabble-rouser. He was loud, demanding REPENT, REPENT. I take it Jesus did not respond to the news of JtB's imprisonment for that very reason.

Just a thought . . .

 

[metis]

Agreed, but outside of the money-changers tables, Jesus was a quiet preacher that did not cause a stir among the people, but rather spoke of calming patience. However, JtB was a rabble-rouser. He was loud, demanding REPENT, REPENT. I take it Jesus did not respond to the news of JtB's imprisonment for that very reason.

Just a thought . . .

Depending on the accuracy of the scriptural account of Jesus, it appears he could be quite judgmental and aggressive at times. However, his basic message of "love one another..." that includes all others very much resonates with me.

 

[shunyadragon]

And right there, in a nutshell, is the problem with Judaism.

There is no cohesive belief and it’s extremely convoluted with differing opinions and rituals, certainly not something from God.

He doesn’t make His message a giant riddle that people have to try and figure out.

Both the Jewish and Christian beliefs in all their variation are based on ancient mythology with no reference on what we know of the history of humanity and the evolution of humanity.

Some symbolically describe Adam and Eve as the First humans that evolved hundreds of thousands of years ago.

I believe most Jews and many Christians (Theistic Evolution) accept the sciences of evolution and the scientific history and origins of our universe

 

[shunyadragon]

Depending on the accuracy of the scriptural account of Jesus, it appears he could be quite judgmental and aggressive at times. However, his basic message of "love one another..." that includes all others very much resonates with me.

If you read the scriptures completely Jesus did not necessarily include "all others in his view of love one another.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

You don’t find it a bit strange that God only cares about Jews and none of the other 8 billion people in the world?

There is no place in the Hebrew text of the Torah / Tanakh / etc. that claims that the Creator of all things only cares about Jews. Instead what Jewish texts claim is that all nations have a mission from the Creator. The mission of the Jewish people is the 613 mitzvoth of the Torah. The mission of the non-Jewish nations is the 7 mitzvoth known as the Noachide laws.

Someone may have misinformed you.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But how does that make it matter whether or not the fruit was originally an apple, or a citron, or a pomegranate, etc?

From a Jewish historical perspective the type of fruit is less of an issue. The main reason it does even come up, in Jewish discussion of the Torah, is normally based on investigating the entire breath of the Torah in Hebrew. There are some metaphors that are made from the type of fruit, as well as the langauge used to describe the leaves that they made clothing to partially cover themselves with.

Essentially, most of the Jewish focus is from commentators who are going line by line and describing different ideas about every word, sentence, and/or spelling used.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think you're the first person actually answer the first question. Thanks. How about the second and third?

Sorry. I assumed your choice of the word "actually" indicated historicity, so I thought the question didn't apply.

In the story, did Adam and Eve know right from wrong before they ate the fruit? The only hint in the story is the following verse:
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
This verse does imply that Adam and Eve did not have a concept of good and evil before eating of the fruit.

Could she sin prior to having this knowledge? It depends on the nuances of your particular definition of sin.

If in your mind you have to have a conscience in order to have moral responsibility for your actions, then no, she didn't sin. For example, we do not think animals sin.

However, you can have an understanding that something is forbidden without being having your own internal understanding of right from wrong. For example, your dog knows very well it is going to get into trouble for eating the dinner you left on the coffee table. That's why the dog slinks away when you come back into the room LOL. Kohlberg calls this stage of moral development the Preconventional Stage. We all go through it between ages 0-8. During this stage, we accept the morality OF OTHERS and refrain from "bad actions" because we don't want to be punished.

The question would be, can a 4 year old sin? I think there would be some people who would say, YES a four year old does understand that stealing will get them into trouble, and is therefore responsible for their actions when they steal, which is why parents are correct to punish them when they steal. Other people would say NO, and the reason we send them to the time out chair is because we are TEACHING them, not punishing them.

My own personal opinion is that the story does seem to indicate that Adam and Eve were in this Preconventional Stage of morality before they ate of the fruit. Since I am part of the people who think that we TEACH four year olds, not punish them, the punishment of death for Adam and Eve as well as having to labor and experiencing pain in childbirth, seems over the top. It is a weakness in the story.

But remember, this is a STORY. Not reality.