Judaism and Supplemental Material

[rosends]

But more so than that, the first century Christians who were Jewish and who wrote certain Chistian Bible books (or at least I thought that they wrote those book) conveyed the Torah law as being so burdensome and so cumbersome that people were saying the Torah law is done with and had its purpose and praise God that he put an end to it and replaced it with something superior. Even some of Jesus' words seem to say that like at Matthew 5:38-39:



Or at least it's thought of as being superior. Although, I will admit that I'm not really sure what Jesus was actually saying.

However, more confusing is that when looking up Christian Bible verses where Jesus referred to the Torah law, but replaced or recommended it with something different, I came across an article that said:



click here: Christ's relationship to Old Testament Law, part one | Article | whig.com

Therefore, the verses from the Tanakh at Jeremiah 31:31-32 seem to really throw a monkey wrench in the machine.

So, does any Torah Mosheh Jew or Orthodox Jew have an interpretation of Jeremiah 31:31-32?

Are you asking about the notion of a "new" covenant? The text makes clear that the content of the covenant is the same with the difference being that in the new version it will be written directly into people's hearts and won't have to be taught. The difference will be in the people, not the law.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But more so than that, the first century Christians who were Jewish and who wrote certain Chistian Bible books (or at least I thought that they wrote those book)

Actually, there isn't any evidence that the original Jewish christians actually wrote anything that is in the NT. What I find interesting is that the author of James and also the ebionite christians made the opposite claim.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, does any Torah Mosheh Jew or Orthodox Jew have an interpretation of Jeremiah 31:31-32?

Yes. In order to understand Yirmeyahu 31:31-32 you literally have to start at Yirmeyahu 1 and read all the way to the end at chapter 52. One also has to read it in Hebrew. If one days BOTH of those things it is clear that what is being discussed is that, "Hashem will cause a situaiton to happen where the Israelis/Jews (literally mentioned in verse 30 who the pact is with) of a particular generation in the future will have the ability to perform Torah, in the land of Israel, will be done in a way that it is more natural to that generation than it was with the generation who received it in the desert/wilderness, outside of the land of Israel. i.e. Hashem will provide the ability for the Torah to be performed by that generation in a way where challenges of previous generations doesn't hinder them. Also, due to the fact that generation descends from generations of exile that got to see what it was like to not be able to keep Torah in the land of Israel.

 

[David Davidovich]

They are the ones who had time to dominate.

Could you elaborate a little bit more?

 

[David Davidovich]

I may be able to help you with this.

As I have mentioned before, one of the problems is with terminology. The English term "angel" and what it means as well as the imagery it conveyes is not Jewish in origin. When Jews use the term in English we often mean something different then what non-Jews mean with it.

For example:

1. The original term in Hebrew is (מלאך) "mal'ach" singular or (מלאכים) "mal'achim" plural.
2. According to Torath Mosheh sources (מלאכים) "malachim" by definition have no free will. I.e. they don't have the ability to choose and they are not human in any way.
3. According to some Torath Mosheh sources (מלאכים) "malachim" by definition are elements of reality that Hashem put in place in order to the natural universe to work.
   • Kind of like say that there are (מלאכים) "malachim" the forces how physical and non-physical world can work. I.e. kind of like physics, chemistry, thermodynmics.
   • According to this view these are what Hashem put in place in order for the universe to work BUT it is not like physics has a will of its own or even thinks.
4. According to some Torath Mosheh source (מלאכים) "malachim", again with no free will, are the elements of the universe where understandings of how the universe works reside.
   • I.e. a prophet when in the mode of prophecy when interacting with a (מלאך) "mal'ach" is not interacting with a being or an entity, but instead an element of reality that makes it clear what he/she is supposed to get out of the experience.
   • In the prophet's vision it appears in a way that the prophet would understand it. I.e. like someone having a conversation with someone when reality they are experiencing what Hashem wants them to get out of the encounter with something above human consciousness.
   • Kind of like a prophet seeing events of the future, but in their vision of it, they are being guided by someone when in reality they are being guided by the reality of what will happen and not by someoen.

It gets a bit metaphysical, and that is in Hebrew. The main key is that a (מלאך) "mal'ach" is not a physical being, it is not human or human like, and it does not have free will. It is simply an element of how the will of Hashem exists in reality.

I've been meaning to get back to this post, but I'm just now doing so. Therefore, if I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like you are describing something somewhat similarly conveyed in the television show Star Trek: Deep Space Nine when Captain Sisko would visit the Bajoran wormhole (aka the Celestial Temple) and would communicate with the extra-dimensional beings that existed in the wormhole (aka the Bojoran Prophets), but would perceive them as human or alien beings that he experienced in his conscious life.

P.S. And yes, I was able to pick up on that you are a Star Trek fan.

 

[David Davidovich]

Take the western image of an angel (personality, wings, human features, etc.) out of the picture and consider it like this.

1. The ability to succeed using what exists in the natural world such as intelligence, wisdom, research, physical strength, etc. can all be considered types of (מלאכים) "malachim" with no free will attached them.
2. The ability to fail using what exits in the natural world such as misdirection, anger, procastination, laziness, etc. can all be considered types of (מלאכים) "malachim".
3. The ability to for the natural world to bring about things that humans/plants/animals enjoy in life can be considered types of (מלאכים) "malachim".
4. The ability for the natural world to have disasters can be considered types of (מלאכים) "malachim".

Thus, two nations that don't keep the 7 mitzvoth may be considered to be in conflict in ways that are beyond the physical world with each side vying for the above four examples. What choices these nations make direct what type of (מלאכים) "malachim" are invovlved in their reality or as rosends put it their "fate." Another way to look at is that (מלאכים) "malachim" are a way to understand the consquences of personal, regional, and national actions that humanity takes when interacting with each and the natural world.

Wow... So, so different from Christian understanding and interpretation of malachim. Also, I guess like everything else, Torah Mosheh Jews get this information from Jewish commentaries? Plus, do you have a guess as to why people who might be familiar with Jewish commentaries, don't learn information from them?

 

[David Davidovich]

Actually, there isn't any evidence that the original Jewish christians actually wrote anything that is in the NT. What I find interesting is that the author of James and also the ebionite christians made the opposite claim.

So, are you saying that the author of James and also the Ebionite Christians claim that there isn't any evidence that the original Jewish Christians wrote anything in the NT?

 

[David Davidovich]

Are you asking about the notion of a "new" covenant? The text makes clear that the content of the covenant is the same with the difference being that in the new version it will be written directly into people's hearts and won't have to be taught. The difference will be in the people, not the law.

@Ehav4Ever answered my question in post #263.

 

[David Davidovich]

Yes. In order to understand Yirmeyahu 31:31-32 you literally have to start at Yirmeyahu 1 and read all the way to the end at chapter 52. One also has to read it in Hebrew. If one days BOTH of those things it is clear that what is being discussed is that, "Hashem will cause a situaiton to happen where the Israelis/Jews (literally mentioned in verse 30 who the pact is with) of a particular generation in the future will have the ability to perform Torah, in the land of Israel, will be done in a way that it is more natural to that generation than it was with the generation who received it in the desert/wilderness, outside of the land of Israel. i.e. Hashem will provide the ability for the Torah to be performed by that generation in a way where challenges of previous generations doesn't hinder them. Also, due to the fact that generation descends from generations of exile that got to see what it was like to not be able to keep Torah in the land of Israel.

Okay, but I have a question: Wasn't the Torah given to humankind because of them getting into a state of "missing the mark"? And if so, does the Hebrew text have a concept that the human state of "missing the mark" will come to an end one day or be "cured"? (For lack of a better word.)

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay, but I have a question: Wasn't the Torah given to humankind because of them getting into a state of "missing the mark"? And if so, does the Hebrew text have a concept that the human state of "missing the mark" will come to an end one day or be "cured"? (For lack of a better word.)

The Torah was offered to the Israeli/Jewish people so that we [Israelis/Jews], as a nation, would receive the good of the world that comes from the mitzvoth of Hashem. Because Torath Mosheh based Israeli/Jewish people accepted it, throughout history, it has the potential as a corrective nature that can effect the world.

On the flip side, the 7 mitzvoth/Noachide have a similar effect on the nations, if they accept it and put them into practice.

In a sense, these have the ability to put post Adam and Hawwah humanity in a state similar to what Adam and Hawwah originally had, if modern humanity takes up the responsibility. (Torath Mosheh for Israelis/Jews and 7 mitzvoth/Noachide laws for non-Jews/non-israelis.)

That is one way I would describe things.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, are you saying that the author of James and also the Ebionite Christians claim that there isn't any evidence that the original Jewish Christians wrote anything in the NT?

No, I am saying there isn't any evidence to who actually wrote the Greek NT that is used as a base text for most modern christianity or even the Aramaic NT used by the Assyrian church of the east.

James and the Ebionites appear to have been theologically opposed to Paul's version of christianity. The writings of the Ebionites no longer exist with christianity. The Ebionites were considered heretics by early non-Jewish christianity.

The following may be helpful. No Hebrew in the video.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Wow... So, so different from Christian understanding and interpretation of malachim.

For Christians, the world angel is relevent. Their texts were in Greek so the term malach doesn't have any historical revelance to them.

Also, I guess like everything else, Torah Mosheh Jews get this information from Jewish commentaries?

We Torath Mosheh Jews get our information from:

1. The national revelation of the Torah that Hashem gave to the entire Israeli/Jewish nation.
2. From the teachings of Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) that he learned from Hashem.
3. From the chain of transmission from the time of Avraham ben-Terahh to the present era.
4. From information transmitted from our family members and community leaders who trace themselves biologically and educationally back to Avraham ben-Terahh and the Israeli/Jewish nation that received the Torah at Mount Sinai.

Plus, do you have a guess as to why people who might be familiar with Jewish commentaries, don't learn information from them?

If you mean Christians, because they are following a long standing Christian tradition of doing so.

 

[rosends]

Could you elaborate a little bit more?

That different nations have had moments of dominance? That God allows different nations to be "on top" for a given period before their fall.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

P.S. And yes, I was able to pick up on that you are a Star Trek fan.

Not 100%. I am not really into pop culture as much as I used to be. In the past I was more of a comic book nerd. Yet, I did a lot study of philosophy and I also wrote a sci-fi novel which I am working a part 2 for the novel I self published.

 

[David Davidovich]

The Torah was offered to the Israeli/Jewish people so that we [Israelis/Jews], as a nation, would receive the good of the world that comes from the mitzvoth of Hashem. Because Torath Mosheh based Israeli/Jewish people accepted it, throughout history, it has the potential as a corrective nature that can effect the world.

On the flip side, the 7 mitzvoth/Noachide have a similar effect on the nations, if they accept it and put them into practice.

In a sense, these have the ability to put post Adam and Hawwah humanity in a state similar to what Adam and Hawwah originally had, if modern humanity takes up the responsibility. (Torath Mosheh for Israelis/Jews and 7 mitzvoth/Noachide laws for non-Jews/non-israelis.)

That is one way I would describe things.

I see. However, I would like to ask: How is humankind in general supposed to know about the 7 mitzvoth/Noachide laws? Because even I don't know what they are with the exception of the laws that God gave to Noah and his family when they got off the ark. Plus, I was just reading where the Talmud has stated that some of these may have been originally given to Adam.

 

[David Davidovich]

That different nations have had moments of dominance? That God allows different nations to be "on top" for a given period before their fall.

Well, @Ehav4Ever suggested that I start a separate thread about the princes of Persia and Greek, and I might take him up on that one day. Because I had no idea of how the Torath Mosheh Jewish interpretation of that was so different from the Christian interpretation.

 

[David Davidovich]

Not 100%. I am not really into pop culture as much as I used to be. In the past I was more of a comic book nerd. Yet, I did a lot study of philosophy and I also wrote a sci-fi novel which I am working a part 2 for the novel I self published.

Oh, wow. What's it called and what is the theme of your story?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I see. However, I would like to ask: How is humankind in general supposed to know about the 7 mitzvoth/Noachide laws?

There is an idea that I once read that stated that all of humanity did know it one time which one looks at things like Hamarabbi's code and such it appears that many of the ancient socieites such as the Mesopetamians, Egyptians, Chinese Shang Dynasty, Vedics, etc. had something that is the basics of the 7 mitzvoth. Yet, at a certain point when Avodah Zara started at lease the first two become problematic in those societies. In one of my videos about whether or not Torath Mosheh came from the Caananites I explore this issue.

Post Torah at Sinai, after Avodah Zara had been firmly established in many ancient cultures, it is considered that most of the 7 mitzvoth simply common sense. Yet, the Rambam, for example states, that a non-Jew would need to know that the Torah Mosheh ben-Amram received from Hashem is source of where they would know it modernly.

i.e. if some of it was lost in their societies it would be up to them to research and try to find the most logical method of knowing them. Kind of like what happened recently in South Korea.

Inside the South Korean Talmud Craze - Orthodox Union

Because even I don't know what they are with the exception of the laws that God gave to Noah and his family when they got off the ark. Plus, I was just reading where the Talmud has stated that some of these may have been originally given to Adam.

According to Torath Mosheh sources 6 of the mitzvoth were given to Adam and the 7th was added to them during the time of Noach and his sons. For the most part, most people on the planet are already living by most of them. One of them is prohibition against murder. Most socieities have that. There is also another one that socieities have to establish systems of laws and justice. etc. So, one way or another you were already living by most of the 7 mitzvoth.

The good thing is that you asked and now you have an answer on what they are.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Oh, wow. What's it called and what is the theme of your story?

This may help.

 

[David Davidovich]

This may help.

Thanks. I will check those out. Also, I will read your post #278 some other time.