Judaism + Islam = Agnosticism?

[Harmonious]

You're surprised?

Yeah.

 

[Caladan]

I can't Frubal you right now, so I'll just compliment you on your post-making skills right here, directly.

Though I'd say that Muslims do their own fair share of marketing, it doesn't often seem like a "television commercial".

I think all major religions are infected by advertisement stunts. As a secular Jewish man I'm occasionaly ****** off by certain brands of Judaism that try to influence public opinion through religious sentiments.
But yes, Christianity seems to have mega marketing campaigns that a modest man from Galilee and his band of fishermen and tax collectors wouldn't know anything about.
Islam definitely markets itself as well on a global level.

Personally if a God exists, I believe that men need to take their time to know him through spending time in the outdoors, if anything his reflections would be in geological formations, sand storms, and the ecological wonders of the wilderness. And even that would be a metaphore.

I don't put much stock in 'personal relationships' with God. God doesn't sit on a coach and listens to our everyday concerns. If you want to know God, get to know nature first. personally, nature brought me to the conclusion of a reality without a God, but that's a different story, as far as I know what I call 'nature' someone else may call 'God'.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Your goal was to offend? Interesting.

The thought hadn't even crossed my mind to try to offend people with the OP. On the contrary, I've really been trying hard to be respectful toward people on RF. I can't imagine how someone read condescension into the OP as I just don't see it anywhere, but then this is the internet and it's easy to misread people. Obviously there is bias in the OP but so what? I'm just surprised that of all the people that would possibly be overly sensitive, it was someone that doesn't even practice Judaism.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Alright, maybe it isn't a pure form of agnosticism but it seems pretty close to me. I can't help but notice that, in practice, these two religions seem to treat God as if he is distant and unknowable. Never have I heard their practitioners describe their relationship the God as something personal. Never have I heard their practitioners express an expectation of God to show up daily in their personal lives. There seems to be no expectation of prophecy, healings, or miracles. I cannot help but feel that in many ways, Christianity has more in common with the way pagan practitioners experience the supernatural than how these "Abrahamic" religions experience it.

Maybe you should consider the possibility that their approach treats God more in the manner befitting a God. He's supposed to be the lord of the universe, right? Would you treat a human king with the informal familiarity of a best buddy? You only go to a king with the really important problems, not trivial matters that are beneath him.

Many cultures use formality to demonstrate respect. Dropping that formality, as happens when you claim a "personal relationship", can be seen as denoting an absence of the respect due to a God.

That's my take on it, anyhow.

 

[1137]

I see many things being said here that I want to add on for the OP. For example, the idea of a personal relationship with God. I am not really sure what is meant by this in the OP. As said, if God exists we should not treat Him like our pal who goes to the bars with us on Friday nights. By personal, I always meant that there is a deep connection between the individual and the deity. In religions like Christianity, it is believed that God is this all loving, all caring, great entity. Who wouldn't want a pal like that? But in Judaism (as said previously) God is the absolute; he is giver and taker, just and vengeful, giving and restricting.

I always like sharing this story to show more what the Jewish God is like; In Auschwitz, at some point during the holocaust and WWII, the Jewish people held God on trial for crimes against humanity. They argued both sides from what I have heard, and in the end they found him guilty. You find the God of Christianity guilty for crimes against humanity, you are not going to be very welcomed in that church. Know what the Jewish people did after finding God guilty of crimes against humanity?
Services.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Maybe you should consider the possibility that their approach treats God more in the manner befitting a God. He's supposed to be the lord of the universe, right? Would you treat a human king with the informal familiarity of a best buddy? You only go to a king with the really important problems, not trivial matters that are beneath him.

Many cultures use formality to demonstrate respect. Dropping that formality, as happens when you claim a "personal relationship", can be seen as denoting an absence of the respect due to a God.

That's my take on it, anyhow.

A couple of thoughts come to mind. FWIW, I've never claimed to be a Hebrew/Greek scholar and rarely try to make my points by lookng at the original texts. I'll make an exception this time because to my knowledge it's not a issue that's disputed. When Jesus was in the garden pleading with God to release him from the coming burden, my understanding is that he referred to him as ABBA which an incredibly informal way to refer to a father. It would easily translated as "daddy". Another thought that comes to mind is the story of the Garden of Eden which Christians believe depicts creation as it was originally intended to be. In the Garden, we see God strolling as if he was in a park. We see a relationship between God and man that comes off as rather informal compared to the relationship between God and the Israelites with the Temple and all it's careful procedures. Christians believe that through the person of Jesus, God is bringing creation closer and closer to what he originally intended for it.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Maybe you should consider the possibility that their approach treats God more in the manner befitting a God. He's supposed to be the lord of the universe, right? Would you treat a human king with the informal familiarity of a best buddy? You only go to a king with the really important problems, not trivial matters that are beneath him.

Many cultures use formality to demonstrate respect. Dropping that formality, as happens when you claim a "personal relationship", can be seen as denoting an absence of the respect due to a God.

That's my take on it, anyhow.

Exactly what I was trying to say, but you worded it better :clap:

 

[Harmonious]

I see many things being said here that I want to add on for the OP. For example, the idea of a personal relationship with God. I am not really sure what is meant by this in the OP. As said, if God exists we should not treat Him like our pal who goes to the bars with us on Friday nights. By personal, I always meant that there is a deep connection between the individual and the deity. In religions like Christianity, it is believed that God is this all loving, all caring, great entity. Who wouldn't want a pal like that? But in Judaism (as said previously) God is the absolute; he is giver and taker, just and vengeful, giving and restricting.

I wouldn't put it like that. I would say that both Jews and Muslims also have a personal relationship with God. You are right, that it isn't one between buddies, but one between a King and His subjects, and/or like a Father and His children. (Different occasions tell us when to focus on God in which lights.)

God is always there, and He always listens, even if He doesn't give the answer we want or expect. It isn't because He's distant, but because there are lots of things going on that need to be weighed and balanced.

I always like sharing this story to show more what the Jewish God is like; In Auschwitz, at some point during the holocaust and WWII, the Jewish people held God on trial for crimes against humanity. They argued both sides from what I have heard, and in the end they found him guilty. You find the God of Christianity guilty for crimes against humanity, you are not going to be very welcomed in that church. Know what the Jewish people did after finding God guilty of crimes against humanity?
Services.

I like that story, too.

It doesn't precisely show what God is like, although it shows what deep and abiding love Jews have of God, no matter what else is happening in the world, or even to us.

Or, it might show a bit of both.

 

[1137]

Yes, I meant that it shows more how our people view our God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A couple of thoughts come to mind. FWIW, I've never claimed to be a Hebrew/Greek scholar and rarely try to make my points by lookng at the original texts. I'll make an exception this time because to my knowledge it's not a issue that's disputed. When Jesus was in the garden pleading with God to release him from the coming burden, my understanding is that he referred to him as ABBA which an incredibly informal way to refer to a father. It would easily translated as "daddy".

... just as a human prince might call his father the king "Daddy". Does that make it okay for commoners to refer to him informally, too? Are you elevating yourself to the level of Jesus Christ?

Another thought that comes to mind is the story of the Garden of Eden which Christians believe depicts creation as it was originally intended to be. In the Garden, we see God strolling as if he was in a park. We see a relationship between God and man that comes off as rather informal compared to the relationship between God and the Israelites with the Temple and all it's careful procedures. Christians believe that through the person of Jesus, God is bringing creation closer and closer to what he originally intended for it.

But by the time of Moses, you have God telling him that he should not even look upon him.

Regardless, that might be your answer: you think that Jesus was the means to bring humanity closer to God. Jews don't accept Jesus at all and Muslims only accept him as a human prophet, so they don't have the means that you say God used to bring creation closer to what he wanted.

 

[Harmonious]

Alright, maybe it isn't a pure form of agnosticism but it seems pretty close to me. I can't help but notice that, in practice, these two religions seem to treat God as if he is distant and unknowable.

No, we don't.

Never have I heard their practitioners describe their relationship the God as something personal.

It occurs to me that you don't know many religious Jews or Muslims personally.

Our relationships with God are often (I can only offer my perspective, but I'm sure that a few people share it, even if it isn't universally shared) VERY personal. We just don't gush about it to catch everyone else up in fervent ecstasy.

Never have I heard their practitioners express an expectation of God to show up daily in their personal lives.

You've never focused on Jewish liturgy or spoken with Jews on a regular basis, have you? (I'm not excluding Muslims; I just know far more Jews and can speak personally and from experience.)

From the religious Jews I know - myself included, many sentences include the words, "Baruch Hashem (Blessed is God)", "God willing," or "With God's help," or "God forbid!" and other expressions that display our thoughts of God's direct Providence in our daily lives.

(The religious Muslims I met in grad school would say similar things, filling in "Allah" instead of "God" or "Hashem".)

There is not only expectation of God showing up, there is a knowledge of God's intimate involvement in our lives.

As I said before, just because we don't gush words loudly to every Tom, Dick, and Harry about it doesn't mean we don't actually say such things.

There seems to be no expectation of prophecy, healings, or miracles.

Apparently, you've never visited a Judaica store. I've seen a refrigerator magnet that read: "Jews don't believe in miracles. We RELY on them!"

Considering how much of Jewish life focuses on the remembrance of the Exodus from Egypt, I would say that we are intimately aware of miracles that were wrought on our behalf in the past, and continues to the present, and we pray and even expect that they continue into our future.

We live our lives in response to the Prophecy that was given to Moses. We are waiting for the Messiah's arrival, and world peace, and lots of other things.

We SEE and EXPERIENCE miracles all the time. Just because we don't necessarily rush to the media to show everyone else the miracles that have happened doesn't mean we don't see and experience them.

We very much have hopes and prayers, and many involve prophecy, healings, miracles, and whatever.

We just don't have people on a soap box in Time Square, or the main entrance to the Bronx Zoo, or wherever, announcing these things to all and sundry.

 

[Harmonious]

Yes, I meant that it shows more how our people view our God.

Cool. Then we are on the same page with that story.

Very nice.

 

[Harmonious]

... what?
Thats so... untrue...

How many Jews and Muslims do you know? Have you ever, like, read posts made my Muslims and Jews here on RF?

Beautifully said.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I've seen people be healed of ailments that no doctor was able to treat. That kind of stuff strengthens one's faith

Sorry to tell you this. This type of thing happens in many different faiths. It is not really a big deal.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

You've never focused on Jewish liturgy or spoken with Jews on a regular basis, have you? (I'm not excluding Muslims; I just know far more Jews and can speak personally and from experience.)

.

I've read plenty of conversations on RF. The conversations often come off a tad impersonal in the way they speak of God. Maybe it's more of a cultural thing. In evangelical protestantism, we intentionally take to encourage each other with the latest reports of what we believe God is doing in our lives. It's always about what God is doing in each of our personal lives. Is it possible that Jews and Muslims speak about God more in terms of what he is doing with the Jewish people or the Islamic people as opposed to individuals? I actually feel like the conversations that the pagans have about their supernatural experience have certain qualities more in common with the kind of conversations I hear among Christians than what I hear among Jews and Muslims. When the pagans talk about the supernatural one can often get the feeling that these are definately people who are encountering a real presence on a personal level.

 

[1137]

I've read plenty of conversations on RF. The conversations often come off a tad impersonal in the way they speak of God. Maybe it's more of a cultural thing. In evangelical protestantism, we intentionally take to encourage each other with the latest reports of what we believe God is doing in our lives. It's always about what God is doing in each of our personal lives. Is it possible that Jews and Muslims speak about God more in terms of what he is doing with the Jewish people or the Islamic people as opposed to individuals? I actually feel like the conversations that the pagans have about their supernatural experience have certain qualities more in common with the kind of conversations I hear among Christians than what I hear among Jews and Muslims. When the pagans talk about the supernatural one can often get the feeling that these are definately people who are encountering a real presence on a personal level.

Well we are not talking about supernatural experiences. They are nothing as only natural things can happen. Miracles are meaningless by their very definition, only what can happen is going to happen. I would never expect God to be doing things in my life, that defeats the whole purpose of my individual awareness. I live my life the way I choose, God is not going to live it for me. If that was the case than this self identity I have would never exist, I would always be completely one with God. So, perhaps it is similar in other cases. God may be there, He may be responsible for the way things work, but He is definitely not sticking His nose into the business of others.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I've read plenty of conversations on RF. The conversations often come off a tad impersonal in the way they speak of God. Maybe it's more of a cultural thing. In evangelical protestantism, we intentionally take to encourage each other with the latest reports of what we believe God is doing in our lives. It's always about what God is doing in each of our personal lives.

I think you may be describing pareidolia, not strength of faith. Absence of it doesn't necessarily imply weakness of faith.

Pareidolia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TheKnight]

I've read plenty of conversations on RF. The conversations often come off a tad impersonal in the way they speak of God. Maybe it's more of a cultural thing. In evangelical protestantism, we intentionally take to encourage each other with the latest reports of what we believe God is doing in our lives. It's always about what God is doing in each of our personal lives. Is it possible that Jews and Muslims speak about God more in terms of what he is doing with the Jewish people or the Islamic people as opposed to individuals? I actually feel like the conversations that the pagans have about their supernatural experience have certain qualities more in common with the kind of conversations I hear among Christians than what I hear among Jews and Muslims. When the pagans talk about the supernatural one can often get the feeling that these are definately people who are encountering a real presence on a personal level.

Well for one, evangelical Christianity is a religion that seeks to draw people in. It's bread and butter towards this end are intense emotional experiences. People don't become Christians because logic drew them there. Their conversion stories are almost always deep emotional or supernatural experiences. It's never, "I wasn't religious and then I was studying along and it became clear through logic and reason that this is the truth."

I won't say it isn't the same for Jews or Muslims, but the key difference, at least for Jews, is that we're not trying as aggressively to draw in others. So there's no need to discuss intense emotional experiences.

Moreover, this forum is a place where people seek to educate one another. For many Christians, educating others about Christianity means exposing those others to the same emotional experiences that got them in efforts to draw those others into the fold. So even if we were the type to always talk of our emotional experiences, then this forum wouldn't be the place to see it.

And even above all that, both Judaism (and Islam as I understand it) are religions that are based on knowledge. There are strong traditions in both religions of debate and theological discussion at the lowest levels of laymen.

On Passover night, Jews don't talk about how emotionally satisfying it is that God saved them from Egypt. Rather they engage in theological discussion and debate about various Torah topics.

On the other hand, anyone who's had the opportunity to attend an Easter service, or a Good Friday service, is aware that recounting Jesus sacrifice on the cross is almost always an emotional milieu something along the lines of "We were sinners, Jesus died for us while we were sinners, what great love!" Never have I been in a Good Friday or Easter service where a theological debate took place.

Just compare the religions, Christianity is about seeing yourself as inadequate and accepting Jesus to fill in the gaps. Judaism and Islam are both religions that are based upon sets of actions that a person is supposed to fulfill. Moreover, Torah and theological debates are the foundation upon which Judaism is built. Not emotional or miraculous experiences (save for the revelation at Sinai).


I'm not trying to say we don't have emotional experiences. I've had the unique opportunity to attend multiple tishes with the Skverer Hasidim and their Rebbe and it would be an understatement to say that it was an emotional experience. I've been to Shabbat services in synagogues where I would describe what happened as nothing short of a divine connection. I've been to communities where the seemingly miraculous was commonplace and the sheer love and hospitality of the communities alone was enough to stir the soul.

But these things are not what Judaism is based upon. They are positive side affects of the religion. They aren't the endstate or the goal. Moreover, these experiences tend to be extremely personal, and I think it is for this reason that we don't speak of them.

I would analogize it as follows (please don't take offense): There are two men. One man has enjoyed a committed marital relationship over the course of many years and often has great and fulfilling sex with his spouse. He rarely ever speaks of it, but the intimacy between he and his wife is intense and enjoyable. The other man, however, has a friend with benefits. He can be consistently be found talking about his latest sexual encounter with his feminine friend and boasting about how awesome and intense the experience was.

In the same way that you wouldn't go around talking about how great the sex you had with your wife last night was, or about the details of what made it great, many Jews (and Muslims I presume) don't talk about their personal religious experiences with God. On the other hand, many Christians, who's relationship with God usually begins with what I would call a relatively shallow emotional experience, can be consistently found talking about those experiences. Almost as if they are trying to show how awesome their friend with benefits can be.

Admittedly, none of this applies across the board. There are Jews who always talk about their emotional experiences. There are Christians who never do. But I believe that what I've explained above characterizes the situation pretty well.

 

[Rakhel]

in a strange sense, Jews and Muslims are agnostic, to some Christians.

That strange sense being, that while we do believe in a god, we do not believe that he ever was named Jesus.

 

[Levite]

Well for one, evangelical Christianity is a religion that seeks to draw people in. It's bread and butter towards this end are intense emotional experiences. People don't become Christians because logic drew them there. Their conversion stories are almost always deep emotional or supernatural experiences. It's never, "I wasn't religious and then I was studying along and it became clear through logic and reason that this is the truth."

I won't say it isn't the same for Jews or Muslims, but the key difference, at least for Jews, is that we're not trying as aggressively to draw in others. So there's no need to discuss intense emotional experiences.

Moreover, this forum is a place where people seek to educate one another. For many Christians, educating others about Christianity means exposing those others to the same emotional experiences that got them in efforts to draw those others into the fold. So even if we were the type to always talk of our emotional experiences, then this forum wouldn't be the place to see it.

And even above all that, both Judaism (and Islam as I understand it) are religions that are based on knowledge. There are strong traditions in both religions of debate and theological discussion at the lowest levels of laymen.

On Passover night, Jews don't talk about how emotionally satisfying it is that God saved them from Egypt. Rather they engage in theological discussion and debate about various Torah topics.

On the other hand, anyone who's had the opportunity to attend an Easter service, or a Good Friday service, is aware that recounting Jesus sacrifice on the cross is almost always an emotional milieu something along the lines of "We were sinners, Jesus died for us while we were sinners, what great love!" Never have I been in a Good Friday or Easter service where a theological debate took place.

Just compare the religions, Christianity is about seeing yourself as inadequate and accepting Jesus to fill in the gaps. Judaism and Islam are both religions that are based upon sets of actions that a person is supposed to fulfill. Moreover, Torah and theological debates are the foundation upon which Judaism is built. Not emotional or miraculous experiences (save for the revelation at Sinai).


I'm not trying to say we don't have emotional experiences. I've had the unique opportunity to attend multiple tishes with the Skverer Hasidim and their Rebbe and it would be an understatement to say that it was an emotional experience. I've been to Shabbat services in synagogues where I would describe what happened as nothing short of a divine connection. I've been to communities where the seemingly miraculous was commonplace and the sheer love and hospitality of the communities alone was enough to stir the soul.

But these things are not what Judaism is based upon. They are positive side affects of the religion. They aren't the endstate or the goal. Moreover, these experiences tend to be extremely personal, and I think it is for this reason that we don't speak of them.

I would analogize it as follows (please don't take offense): There are two men. One man has enjoyed a committed marital relationship over the course of many years and often has great and fulfilling sex with his spouse. He rarely ever speaks of it, but the intimacy between he and his wife is intense and enjoyable. The other man, however, has a friend with benefits. He can be consistently be found talking about his latest sexual encounter with his feminine friend and boasting about how awesome and intense the experience was.

In the same way that you wouldn't go around talking about how great the sex you had with your wife last night was, or about the details of what made it great, many Jews (and Muslims I presume) don't talk about their personal religious experiences with God. On the other hand, many Christians, who's relationship with God usually begins with what I would call a relatively shallow emotional experience, can be consistently found talking about those experiences. Almost as if they are trying to show how awesome their friend with benefits can be.

Admittedly, none of this applies across the board. There are Jews who always talk about their emotional experiences. There are Christians who never do. But I believe that what I've explained above characterizes the situation pretty well.

This is such an excellent post, the whole thing is QFT. Couldn't put it better myself.