paarsurrey
Veteran Member
By making a humble man Jesus, the Christians have severed their relationship with YHWH G-d.
Haven't they?
Regards
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Judaism
- Thread starter Byjayfzv
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By making a humble man Jesus, the Christians have severed their relationship with YHWH G-d.
Haven't they?
Regards
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
I looked at a thread once. I must have mentally blocked it out, because I remember reading it, but have no recollection of the argument. I DO remember that it was one of the things where there was NO connection between the groups who were arguing, and I decided it was safer to just back away quietly.
No ... simply more transparent.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
That is what we've always said. There is no proof of belief, particularly theological belief, because all reasoning is circular.
It is why you've been asked why you WANT the proof. Why you've been told we DON'T spend time proving our belief.
At this juncture, I am of the belief that you wanted to ask for "proof" of Judaism so you can say, "See? There is no proof. Therefore, there is no reason to believe." And at some point, I can envision that you will try to say that your belief, though equally without proof, is valid.
I have given you honest answers, even against good advice, and my better judgment. You have proven you are a troll.
dantech
Well-Known Member
You're right. He's actually getting worse and worse.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Uh....sure. But then again, we have bagels and lox.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
roger1440
I do stuff
I dont understand what you mean. Plus this thread isn't about Jesus.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Your post # 136
I think my dialogue started with you with your post # 136.
It did mention of Christianity and Christianity takes Jesus as god which is not the same in Judaism, they don't believe in Jesus as god, they believe in YHWH.
No doubt this thread is not about Jesus.
Regards
I think my dialogue started with you with your post # 136.
It did mention of Christianity and Christianity takes Jesus as god which is not the same in Judaism, they don't believe in Jesus as god, they believe in YHWH.
No doubt this thread is not about Jesus.
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Like Jews severed their relationship with YHWH when they carved the Golden Calf; Moses had to kill 3000 of Jews for that.
Paul/Church carved Trinity a myth out of thin air and thus Christians following Paul/Church severed their relationship with YHWH. Jesus and Mary never believed in Trinity.
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
paarsurrey said: ↑
Please quote full chapters 19 and 20 from Exodus, when the event happened.
Deuteronomy - Chapter 4
1And now, O Israel, hearken to the statutes and to the judgments which I teach you to do, in order that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord, God of your forefathers, is giving you.
2Do not add to the word which I command you, nor diminish from it, to observe the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
3Your eyes have seen what the Lord did at Baal Peor, for every man who went after Baal Peor, the Lord your God has exterminated from your midst.
4But you who cleave to the Lord your God are alive, all of you, this day.
5Behold, I have taught you statutes and ordinances, as the Lord, my God, commanded me, to do so in the midst of the land to which you are coming to possess.
6And you shall keep [them] and do [them], for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the eyes of the peoples, who will hear all these statutes and say, "Only this great nation is a wise and understanding people. "
7For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the Lord our God is at all times that we call upon Him? :
8And which great nation is it that has just statutes and ordinances, as this entire Torah, which I set before you this day?
9But beware and watch yourself very well, lest you forget the things that your eyes saw, and lest these things depart from your heart, all the days of your life, and you shall make them known to your children and to your children's children,
10the day you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, when the Lord said to me, "Assemble the people for Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.
11And you approached and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire up to the midst of the heavens, with darkness, a cloud, and opaque darkness.
12The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice.
13And He told you His covenant, which He commanded you to do, the Ten Commandments, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets.
14And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, so that you should do them in the land to which you are crossing, to possess.
15And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any image on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire.
16Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female,
17the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the heaven,
18the likeness of anything that crawls on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters, beneath the earth.
19And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.
20But the Lord took you and brought you out of the iron crucible, out of Egypt, to be a people of His possession, as of this day.
21And the Lord was angry with me because of you, and He swore that I would not cross the Jordan and that I would not come into the good land the Lord, your God, is giving you as an inheritance.
22For I will die in this land; I will not cross the Jordan. You, however, will cross, and you will possess this good land.
23Beware, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image, the likeness of anything, which the Lord your God has forbidden you.
24For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a zealous God.
25When you beget children and children's children, and you will be long established in the land, and you become corrupt and make a graven image, the likeness of anything, and do evil in the eyes of the Lord your God, to provoke Him to anger,
26I call as witness against you this very day the heaven and the earth, that you will speedily and utterly perish from the land to which you cross the Jordan, to possess; you will not prolong your days upon it, but will be utterly destroyed.
27And the Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and you will remain few in number among the nations to where the Lord will lead you.
28And there you will worship gods, man's handiwork, wood and stone, which neither see, hear, eat, nor smell.
29And from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him, if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.
30When you are distressed, and all these things happen upon you in the end of days, then you will return to the Lord your God and obey Him.
31For the Lord your God is a merciful God; He will not let you loose or destroy you; neither will He forget the covenant of your fathers, which He swore to them.
32For ask now regarding the early days that were before you, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from one end of the heavens to the other end of the heavens, whether there was anything like this great thing, or was the likes of it heard?
33Did ever a people hear God's voice speaking out of the midst of the fire as you have heard, and live?
34Or has any god performed miracles to come and take him a nation from the midst of a[nother] nation, with trials, with signs, and with wonders, and with war and with a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great awesome deeds, as all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
35You have been shown, in order to know that the Lord He is God; there is none else besides Him.
36From the heavens, He let you hear His voice to instruct you, and upon the earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire,
37and because He loved your forefathers and chose their seed after them, and He brought you out of Egypt before Him with His great strength,
38to drive out from before you nations greater and stronger than you, to bring you and give you their land for an inheritance, as this day.
39And you shall know this day and consider it in your heart, that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth below; there is none else.
40And you shall observe His statutes and His commandments, which I command you this day, that it may be well with you and your children after you, and that you may prolong your days upon the earth which the Lord your God gives you forever.
41Then Moses decided to separate three cities on the side of the Jordan towards the sunrise,
42so that a murderer might flee there, he who murders his fellow man unintentionally, but did not hate him in time past, that he may flee to one of these cities, so that he might live:
43Bezer in the desert, in the plain country of the Reubenites, Ramoth in Gilead of the Gadites, and Golan in the Bashan of the Menassites.
44And this is the teaching which Moses set before the children of Israel:
45These are the testimonies, statutes and ordinances, which Moses spoke to the children of Israel when they went out of Egypt,
46on the side of the Jordan in the valley, opposite Beth Peor, in the land of Sihon, king of the Amorites, who dwelt in Heshbon, whom Moses and the children of Israel smote, after they went out of Egypt.
47And they possessed his land and the land of Og, king of the Bashan, the two kings of the Amorites, who were on the side of the Jordan, towards the sunrise,
48from Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, to Mount Sion, which is Hermon,
49and all the plain across the Jordan eastward as far as the sea of the plain, under the waterfalls of the hill.
Deuteronomy - Chapter 4 (Parshah Va'etchanan) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Now prove your viewpoint, please.
Regards
Please quote full chapters 19 and 20 from Exodus, when the event happened.
Deuteronomy - Chapter 4
1And now, O Israel, hearken to the statutes and to the judgments which I teach you to do, in order that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord, God of your forefathers, is giving you.
2Do not add to the word which I command you, nor diminish from it, to observe the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
3Your eyes have seen what the Lord did at Baal Peor, for every man who went after Baal Peor, the Lord your God has exterminated from your midst.
4But you who cleave to the Lord your God are alive, all of you, this day.
5Behold, I have taught you statutes and ordinances, as the Lord, my God, commanded me, to do so in the midst of the land to which you are coming to possess.
6And you shall keep [them] and do [them], for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the eyes of the peoples, who will hear all these statutes and say, "Only this great nation is a wise and understanding people. "
7For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the Lord our God is at all times that we call upon Him? :
8And which great nation is it that has just statutes and ordinances, as this entire Torah, which I set before you this day?
9But beware and watch yourself very well, lest you forget the things that your eyes saw, and lest these things depart from your heart, all the days of your life, and you shall make them known to your children and to your children's children,
10the day you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, when the Lord said to me, "Assemble the people for Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.
11And you approached and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire up to the midst of the heavens, with darkness, a cloud, and opaque darkness.
12The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice.
13And He told you His covenant, which He commanded you to do, the Ten Commandments, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets.
14And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, so that you should do them in the land to which you are crossing, to possess.
15And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any image on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire.
16Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female,
17the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the heaven,
18the likeness of anything that crawls on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters, beneath the earth.
19And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.
20But the Lord took you and brought you out of the iron crucible, out of Egypt, to be a people of His possession, as of this day.
21And the Lord was angry with me because of you, and He swore that I would not cross the Jordan and that I would not come into the good land the Lord, your God, is giving you as an inheritance.
22For I will die in this land; I will not cross the Jordan. You, however, will cross, and you will possess this good land.
23Beware, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image, the likeness of anything, which the Lord your God has forbidden you.
24For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a zealous God.
25When you beget children and children's children, and you will be long established in the land, and you become corrupt and make a graven image, the likeness of anything, and do evil in the eyes of the Lord your God, to provoke Him to anger,
26I call as witness against you this very day the heaven and the earth, that you will speedily and utterly perish from the land to which you cross the Jordan, to possess; you will not prolong your days upon it, but will be utterly destroyed.
27And the Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and you will remain few in number among the nations to where the Lord will lead you.
28And there you will worship gods, man's handiwork, wood and stone, which neither see, hear, eat, nor smell.
29And from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him, if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.
30When you are distressed, and all these things happen upon you in the end of days, then you will return to the Lord your God and obey Him.
31For the Lord your God is a merciful God; He will not let you loose or destroy you; neither will He forget the covenant of your fathers, which He swore to them.
32For ask now regarding the early days that were before you, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and from one end of the heavens to the other end of the heavens, whether there was anything like this great thing, or was the likes of it heard?
33Did ever a people hear God's voice speaking out of the midst of the fire as you have heard, and live?
34Or has any god performed miracles to come and take him a nation from the midst of a[nother] nation, with trials, with signs, and with wonders, and with war and with a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great awesome deeds, as all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
35You have been shown, in order to know that the Lord He is God; there is none else besides Him.
36From the heavens, He let you hear His voice to instruct you, and upon the earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire,
37and because He loved your forefathers and chose their seed after them, and He brought you out of Egypt before Him with His great strength,
38to drive out from before you nations greater and stronger than you, to bring you and give you their land for an inheritance, as this day.
39And you shall know this day and consider it in your heart, that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth below; there is none else.
40And you shall observe His statutes and His commandments, which I command you this day, that it may be well with you and your children after you, and that you may prolong your days upon the earth which the Lord your God gives you forever.
41Then Moses decided to separate three cities on the side of the Jordan towards the sunrise,
42so that a murderer might flee there, he who murders his fellow man unintentionally, but did not hate him in time past, that he may flee to one of these cities, so that he might live:
43Bezer in the desert, in the plain country of the Reubenites, Ramoth in Gilead of the Gadites, and Golan in the Bashan of the Menassites.
44And this is the teaching which Moses set before the children of Israel:
45These are the testimonies, statutes and ordinances, which Moses spoke to the children of Israel when they went out of Egypt,
46on the side of the Jordan in the valley, opposite Beth Peor, in the land of Sihon, king of the Amorites, who dwelt in Heshbon, whom Moses and the children of Israel smote, after they went out of Egypt.
47And they possessed his land and the land of Og, king of the Bashan, the two kings of the Amorites, who were on the side of the Jordan, towards the sunrise,
48from Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, to Mount Sion, which is Hermon,
49and all the plain across the Jordan eastward as far as the sea of the plain, under the waterfalls of the hill.
Deuteronomy - Chapter 4 (Parshah Va'etchanan) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Now prove your viewpoint, please.
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Friend Tumah quoted Deuteronomy - Chapter 4:12 to prove that G-d spoke directly to the Israelite nation as a whole.
Deuteronomy does not supersede the points given in Exodus. Deuteronomy cannot change the event as narrated in Exodus, as the event was just happening at that time. Deuteronomy was exhortation addresses of what had already happened.
The points mentioned by me about Exodus Chapters 19, 20 in my post # 21 <Judaism: no mass revelation of G-d with Jews mentioned in Exodus Chapter 19 and 20 | Page 2 | ReligiousForums.com>, therefore, remain still valid.
The text of the chapters 19,20 of Exodus indicates that:
• neither the people went up the mountain (only Moses and Aaron went as per the text) none other went,
• nor YHWH descended to the masses to talk with them directly,
• the masses were afraid of the YHWH lest He wreaks at them. (What chosen people they , the Jews, claim to be?)
• there was a barricade for the Jews, they could no cross it.
• The conversation was between YHWH and Moses in direct manner up at the mountain.
• It is therefore evident that the communication was indirectly conveyed to masses by Moses.
That proves my point.
Moses wanted to save the Jewish people from the iniquities they could perform in future. The Jews disobeyed Moses and as a people acted against the commandments given to them through Moses by God as mentioned in Deuteronomy.
Instead of being a select people, the Jews became the worst people.
This chapter four of Deuteronomy served as a future charge-sheet given to the Jews by Moses himself.
Regards
Deuteronomy does not supersede the points given in Exodus. Deuteronomy cannot change the event as narrated in Exodus, as the event was just happening at that time. Deuteronomy was exhortation addresses of what had already happened.
The points mentioned by me about Exodus Chapters 19, 20 in my post # 21 <Judaism: no mass revelation of G-d with Jews mentioned in Exodus Chapter 19 and 20 | Page 2 | ReligiousForums.com>, therefore, remain still valid.
The text of the chapters 19,20 of Exodus indicates that:
• neither the people went up the mountain (only Moses and Aaron went as per the text) none other went,
• nor YHWH descended to the masses to talk with them directly,
• the masses were afraid of the YHWH lest He wreaks at them. (What chosen people they , the Jews, claim to be?)
• there was a barricade for the Jews, they could no cross it.
• The conversation was between YHWH and Moses in direct manner up at the mountain.
• It is therefore evident that the communication was indirectly conveyed to masses by Moses.
That proves my point.
Moses wanted to save the Jewish people from the iniquities they could perform in future. The Jews disobeyed Moses and as a people acted against the commandments given to them through Moses by God as mentioned in Deuteronomy.
Instead of being a select people, the Jews became the worst people.
This chapter four of Deuteronomy served as a future charge-sheet given to the Jews by Moses himself.
Regards
Tumah
Veteran Member
You are mistaken friend paarrssurrreeeyy. I've already established for you that Exodus chapter 12 has G-d speaking to Israel as well. For some reason you are under the impression that G-d could not be heard down the mountain. The verses both here and there do not bear out such an interpretation. An ability of Al-Qadir is that He can lower his voice so that only one person on a mountain could hear him. Or even make His Voice heard all the way down the mountain so that the entire nation can hear him. The verses in both chapters say outright that Israel heard G-d speak. This is a closed case. You are beating a dead horse.
rosends
Well-Known Member
@paarsurrey you stated "Deuteronomy was exhortation addresses of what had already happened."
And Deut 4:12 says "The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice."
Therefore, by your logic, that event addressed in 4:12 "already happened."
So you concede that "The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice." It, as you said, already happened.
Thank you.
And Deut 4:12 says "The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice."
Therefore, by your logic, that event addressed in 4:12 "already happened."
So you concede that "The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice." It, as you said, already happened.
Thank you.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Friend Tumah!
One doesn't have to be angry. It happened a couple of thousand years ago. I don't think the present day Jewry is responsible for that. Moses did say, as per Bible, that Jews of his time were a rebellious people.
Didn't he?
Regard
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Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Moses is indeed quoted in the Psalms. The 90th, of which the 91st Psalm is likely a continuation thereof, was his.
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Kolibri
Well-Known Member
It is not the Torah but it is the Prophets
Remember the former (Lit., "first.") things of long ago,
That I am God, (or "the Divine One.") and there is no other.
I am God, and there is no other.
I am God, and there is no one like me.
From the beginning I foretell the outcome,
And from long ago the things that have not yet been done.
I say, 'My decision (or "purpose; counsel.") will stand,
And I will do whatever I please.'
- Isaiah 46:9,10