Wikipedia's Judaism's view of Jesus might be a place to start.
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Judaism's view of Jesus
- Thread starter Jayhawker Soule
- Start date
Two additional resources:
Hawkeye112200
Member
I have read the outline and beginning of the provided link.
From the outset here, I would like to explain my approach to religion in general, so at least those who respond will know a little more about me.
I loathe and detest greater than anything perhaps, a person holding a religious belief that has not been challenged by that individual and examined enough to give an account of ones beliefs, to a greater extent than saying "my teacher told me so".
I admit, that within the framework and breadth of my community, there may not be an equal among the world that is as guilty of this. So, even the more do I ridicule to some extent my own beliefs, challenge them, and as I am doing here today, trying to understand the ways of other beliefs.
Finally before I begin asking questions. Here is what I hope is a reasonable expectation. I am interested in what your religion teaches, I am interested in what tradition says, and I am interested in reading links and specific quotes. However, I am more interested in whether or not, these references have been challenged by the individual engaging in this thread, whether or not they have simply accepted them "because it is tradition", and if we are all willing to lay down our bias long enough to honestly look at both sides (not in a debate fashion of course, but so we can see the full picture). This may entail examining things from the Talmud all the way to the Gospels.
Is that going to be OK, in this section of the Forum, so long as a debate does not ensue?
Thank you for starting this thread, and I promise to not be so long winded and more specific if this develops along.
From the outset here, I would like to explain my approach to religion in general, so at least those who respond will know a little more about me.
I loathe and detest greater than anything perhaps, a person holding a religious belief that has not been challenged by that individual and examined enough to give an account of ones beliefs, to a greater extent than saying "my teacher told me so".
I admit, that within the framework and breadth of my community, there may not be an equal among the world that is as guilty of this. So, even the more do I ridicule to some extent my own beliefs, challenge them, and as I am doing here today, trying to understand the ways of other beliefs.
Finally before I begin asking questions. Here is what I hope is a reasonable expectation. I am interested in what your religion teaches, I am interested in what tradition says, and I am interested in reading links and specific quotes. However, I am more interested in whether or not, these references have been challenged by the individual engaging in this thread, whether or not they have simply accepted them "because it is tradition", and if we are all willing to lay down our bias long enough to honestly look at both sides (not in a debate fashion of course, but so we can see the full picture). This may entail examining things from the Talmud all the way to the Gospels.
Is that going to be OK, in this section of the Forum, so long as a debate does not ensue?
Thank you for starting this thread, and I promise to not be so long winded and more specific if this develops along.
In that case, this forum is inappropriate, and you were absolutely correct in suggesting a one-on-one dialogue with Levite.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. L'shalom.
Hawkeye112200
Member
Thank you for the clarification.
Aside from that, I would like to be able to come to this thread if that is OK with you. However, I am reading the links currently you provided, and I may simply have questions that need clarification. Is this a good thread to do that, if it pertains to the messianic age and person?
For example, it is believed from what I am reading, that this person will be a King (maybe another name in our day and age) but a King none the less. This person will somehow come and at the time everyone in the world will know the truth.
Will this be a divine switch of sorts, that everyone's brain will change, or will the King's thoughts and speaking bring about this change? Or is this still discussed and debated in Jewish teachings?
Thanks.
I am not the gate keeper.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Absolutely.
It's not so much that he'll be magical, or anything other than a man. He will be a teacher of great renown. He will be a scholar and a tactian whose advice will be sought by people far and wide.
A great messianic candidate who was within our time was the last Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Menachem Mendel Schne'erson. He taught all manners of people. People from different walks of life sought his advice and his blessing. There was no question that he was a great man.
However, world peace was not established in his lifetime. He didn't convince all Jews to move to Israel.
Despite his greatness, he was not the Messiah.
People won't inherently change; there will be so many differences in the world because of the Messiah's direct influence that people won't be able to help but take notice.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Hawkeye, another book you might consider reading is "The Real Messiah" by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. It can be found on the Jews for Judaism website that Jay directed you to.
Hawkeye112200
Member
Appreciate the welcoming.
So, I am pretty familiar with the Torah, the prophets, and not so much the Talmud. A two part question comes to mind from your response.
The qualities you list:
- Teacher
- Tactician
- Scholar
- All Jews will move to Israel
- World Peace will happen (I am assuming from His influence)
Question 2: If not from those sources, from where are those qualities derived from?
The article Jayhawker linked to answers those questions and provides book, chapter, and verse citations.
The term Torah would be more respectful.
Hawkeye112200
Member
OK thanks, I have only opened his first link, and I am still reading it.
I will refrain from posting any further on the topic until I read up some more.
Sorry for the trouble.
Hawkeye112200
Member
No problem.
It's no trouble, and I'm sure everyone here is willing to answer your questions.
But, as Jayhawker said earlier, it helps if you come with a basic understanding, which those resources can provide.
Hawkeye112200
Member
And I would expect no less of the opposite if I were on the other side, so rather than blab like a fool, I will try to bone up a bit.
Talk to you soon.
punkdbass
I will be what I will be
If you want scripture from the Hebrew Bible telling you what the messiah will do, here are some of the main prophecies:
When you read the Prophets, or even the entire Tanakh for that matter, you'll begin to see a picture or vision painted of the messianic age, a time where there will be world peace. I'm not sure just how literal the other prophecies are, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that Judaism's view of the messianic age requires world peace.
Many Jews believe the messianic age will not be brought about by the sole responsibility of ONE single person, but rather all of humanity will come together and bring about the messianic age. Such Jews, however, might also consider the possibility of a single ruler(messiah) during that time as well though. But needless to say, many Jews believe all of humanity will be responsible for bringing about the messianic age, which IMO is the far more practical view.. for I find it difficult to imagine all of the world, with its diverse cultures and religions, all unanimously accepting and following the advice of one single man.
I don't really understand why Jews, who believe in a single messiah who will be solely responsible for bringing about the messianic age, require it to be completed in his lifetime. If the average person lives 80 years, lets say, how practical is it to assume someone could create eternal world peace in that short of a period? Does the Bible or Talmud support such a difficult requirement?
- Create world peace (Micah 4:3-4, Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6)
- Create universal knowledge and worship of God (Isaiah 66:23, Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9, Zechariah 14:9)
- Bring all of the Jews back to Israel (Isaiah 11:12, Isaiah 43:5-6, Isaiah 27:12-13)
- Rebuild the third temple (Ezekiel 37:26 – 27, Micah 4:1-2)
When you read the Prophets, or even the entire Tanakh for that matter, you'll begin to see a picture or vision painted of the messianic age, a time where there will be world peace. I'm not sure just how literal the other prophecies are, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that Judaism's view of the messianic age requires world peace.
Many Jews believe the messianic age will not be brought about by the sole responsibility of ONE single person, but rather all of humanity will come together and bring about the messianic age. Such Jews, however, might also consider the possibility of a single ruler(messiah) during that time as well though. But needless to say, many Jews believe all of humanity will be responsible for bringing about the messianic age, which IMO is the far more practical view.. for I find it difficult to imagine all of the world, with its diverse cultures and religions, all unanimously accepting and following the advice of one single man.
Harmonious said:
I don't really understand why Jews, who believe in a single messiah who will be solely responsible for bringing about the messianic age, require it to be completed in his lifetime. If the average person lives 80 years, lets say, how practical is it to assume someone could create eternal world peace in that short of a period? Does the Bible or Talmud support such a difficult requirement?
Levite
Higher and Higher
There are a lot of conflicting opinions about the interplay of moshiach and tikkun olam. But what it boils down to is that some believe that when the world is at a point very close to tikkun olam, the moshiach will come, and he will be the leader who brings us the last mile, and establishes a healed world. And some believe that when we bring about tikkun olam, together, the leader who will emerge to lead us in that new time will be the moshiach.
In older times, some believed that prior to tikkun olam, there would be a last, great war, and the moshiach would be our general, forging through might a world at peace. But I have met very few people today who still believe this. Not when there are other options of belief, and the idea of peace via war becomes ever less reasonable; such a philosophy simply doesn't look like how the world is evolving.
I personally believe that when we, together, bring about tikkun olam, the leader who will emerge to lead us then will be the moshiach.
The messiah is a post-Torah concept and 'Jewish' attitudes toward the Mashiach were all over the map - including the dual messiahs brought to us courtesy of Qumran. My personal belief is that it has the same standing (and many of the same roots) as does 'heaven' and 'hell.' But as varied and questionable as these views might have been, one thing seems pretty clear: whatever the Mashiach was, what he was not was a God.
Hawkeye112200
Member
I do wonder about how it will develop. Which naturally we can see the need to sometimes consider magic given the state of the world.
I too think the idea you state that tikkun olam comes first then moshiach emerges sounds like the only non-magical solution, at least on the surface.
Something that I don't think will be in the links that have been provided to me, is dealing with the stark contrast of Muslims and Jewish people. In that, it is said, when this age happens, everyone will know truth and peace.
There are currently billions of Muslims I believe. Are there modern writing or teachings, or even older teachings, that expound on how the change process "might" happen? Or, is it simply left alone to unfold, knowing that how it happens isn't as important as the fact that it "is" going to happen?
In other words, it seems if we can define, how this change to truth and peace can or will happen, maybe that alone will be the catalyst to make it happen. Rather than not defining how this change will come about and simply waiting for it to come about, will prevent it from ever coming about.
All the efforts currently going on in Israel, are these believed to be precursor to this age, or at least is that part of the aim or effort?
Geez, sorry for all the questions. I actually feel bad asking for some reason. So, please put me in my place if I am out of line here.
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Flankerl
Well-Known Member
What "efforts" in Israel?:sarcastic