Just 43% of Americans Identify as Protestant

[SeekingAllTruth]

And you would be somewhat correct....he will not interfere with our free willed choices.

He will not interfere period. That's been my experience.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I have to go with He simply doesn't care to get involved.

I see how easy it is to reach that conclusion...long ago, I felt the same.

But then someone, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, helped me to reason on Genesis 3, and the issues that A&E’s rebellion raised. I came to realize that Jehovah had to let events go by themselves, without His intervention. He needed to stay away from human affairs (for the most part) to allow the issues to be settled.

More information can be found here: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015651#h=5:0-18:346

But in the interim, He’s given us a book that tells us how we should act. It also explains how he’s going to remedy the situation, so that Matthew 6:9-10, Ephesians 1:10, and Revelation 21:3-4 can reach fulfillment.

Best wishes.

 

[thomas t]

Jesus said, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Jesus acknowledges that one can live a righteous life without having to accept him as Lord and savior. I don't subscribe to that old Isaiah, "All have sinned and fallen short" Jesus makes it clear he negated that.

Good point, SAT.
Job also was called righteous at some time of his life, but then he seemed to have made mistakes.

Maybe, in Luke 5:32, these were baptized people already.
At that point of time, John the Baptized did already his job in the river Jordan.

But it's good you pointed that out!

 

[thomas t]

I don't agree with the Jehovah Witnesses here. Just want to answer a point:

There is nothing loving about demanding an entire city be put to death of they start to worship another god. That is wicked, that is evil, that is inexcusable by any good sense of morality.

it's not wicked or inexcusable.
If you create something you are antitled to destroy it.
I think there is a simple rule: the one able to create life (create and not procreate) ... and the one who is able to ensure an afterlife, is entitled to kill also.

He's such a sadist he even allegedly sent his own son to be tortured to death.

Sadism means you delight in it. God isn't sadist, I think.

The American Army officials were not sadist when they landed in Normandy for D-day.
They knew that the Germans would kill the first rows.
It was evident.
Yet they sent the soldiers.
Both the soldiers and the planners are heroes, in my opinion.

So is God and Jesus, of course.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I see how easy it is to reach that conclusion...long ago, I felt the same.

But then someone, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, helped me to reason on Genesis 3, and the issues that A&E’s rebellion raised. I came to realize that Jehovah had to let events go by themselves, without His intervention. He needed to stay away from human affairs (for the most part) to allow the issues to be settled.

More information can be found here: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015651#h=5:0-18:346

But in the interim, He’s given us a book that tells us how we should act. It also explains how he’s going to remedy the situation, so that Matthew 6:9-10, Ephesians 1:10, and Revelation 21:3-4 can reach fulfillment.

Best wishes.

That's pretty much in line with my philosophy--God stays out of all human affairs and we seek the answers for ourselves.

 

[halbhh]

How is resurrection not considered to be given a new life but rather is just a part of this same life we have now? In order to be resurrected you have to die first.

Also, how is the apostles creed valid when there were no apostles involved in developing that creed?

Your first question wording here is a bit opaque to me (I'm not quite sure what you are asking). Of course to be resurrected one would die first, which is a given basic thing, yes. The question needs a lot of clarifying as I can't even make a guess what you are asking there.

To me, the only validity of the Apostles Creed (itself is just a useful summary of some things) comes from the way it accurately and faithfully reflects the overall broad repeating meanings in the scriptures. For each bit, you can find the scriptures it summarizes.

 

[Nivek001]

”Your first question wording here is a bit opaque to me (I'm not quite sure what you are asking). Of course to be resurrected one would die first, which is a given basic thing, yes. The question needs a lot of clarifying as I can't even make a guess what you are asking there.”

How difficult is it to comprehend:

Life to death to resurrection?

Resurrection is not a continuation of this life. Resurrection is obtaining a new life because when we die our current mortal lives come to an end or in other words that life is given up.

So, when resurrection happens there is a change involved. The mortal body isn’t returned back when we will be resurrected. It’s a different perfected immortal body we will receive.

According accounts given in the New Testament of those who witnessed encountering the resurrected Jesus did not recognize him at first.

“To me, the only validity of the Apostles Creed (itself is just a useful summary of some things) comes from the way it accurately and faithfully reflects the overall broad repeating meanings in the scriptures.”

Why do you only consider the Apostles Creed when not only is that Creed not scripture there were even no actual apostles involved in the development of that Creed?

“For each bit, you can find the scriptures it summarizes.”

What scriptures point out that the resurrection is not obtaining a new life?

 

[Riders]

This is no surprise to me at all. Yeshua said it was a narrow path, so that implies that there would not necessarily be a huge following. Also, in Thessalonians 2, it says that there will be a great falling away before Yeshua's return, so... there you go.
If it's fading away, it's the people's choice, He's given us free will, and to "intervene" would take away from that free will, I feel. God's not concerned, there will always be a remnant.

43 percent is still a huge amount of people in America.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

it's not wicked or inexcusable.
If you create something you are antitled to destroy it.
I think there is a simple rule: the one able to create life (create and not procreate) ... and the one who is able to ensure an afterlife, is entitled to kill also.

That's what abusive kings tell their subjects. Even if your god did create us, we are not his to do with as he pleases. Just because you have the power doesn't mean your have the right or are in the right.

Sadism means you delight in it. God isn't sadist, I think.

If god wasn't a sadist he would realize his methods have failed and he'd try something else, something more congruent and compatible with our psychology. But he doesn't.

The American Army officials were not sadist when they landed in Normandy for D-day.
They knew that the Germans would kill the first rows.
It was evident.
Yet they sent the soldiers.
Both the soldiers and the planners are heroes, in my opinion.

They were fighting to defeat the Nazis. And it had to be a war because humans are not omnipotent. But your god allegedly is. And despite that he keeps resorting to violence to punish the sinners and nothing ever changes. He just keeps going on punishing an judging, and judging and punishing. And he keeps doing this, even though he is also allegedly omniscient, which means he should know his methods are overall ineffective at motivating us and if he wants things to change he has got to change the system itself, because even we humans know it is folly to do the same thing again if it has already failed.
The only explanation to explain all of this that your god is a sadist. He could do anything he wants. His "do anything" including sending his own son to a gruesome death.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

“Frequently “?

Is that what King David thought? Not according to Psalms 103:8, “Jehovah is merciful and compassionate,*
Slow to anger and abundant in loyal love.*”
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwtsty/19/103#study=discover

Why did Jehovah at times kill? Again, Psalm 107 gives us the answer, at Psalms 106:37-40...

God didn't have to go about violence and genocide. He choice to do so. He is so violent and dangerous even cattle are not safe when he sends people out for war.

Was Jesus ‘kicking and screaming’ against it, or was he willing?

He knew he wouldn't stay dead and that he'd just be having one lousy weekend compared to the whole of eternity. That isn't really anything of a sacrifice.

And in the future, the consequences of his death, the blessings, might affect you in ways you can’t imagine.

"Once saved, always saved" is the only way it could. But then I would insist it not.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

@Nivek001
It's clear to me you have no intention but repeating "you haven't proven" every time I cite something from the Bible.
You doing that is a part of why people are leaving the Church, and all you are doing is affirming the state state of affairs Christian apologetics are in. Your blinders are so tightly secured you don't realize what your doing is being listed as a reason people are leaving your primitive religion.
But do keep doing it, Please and thank you. Please do me the favor and continue to make Christianity look so unappealing to the masses that people won't consider joining it and those who have will leave because they realize the ship is sinking fast.

 

[halbhh]

..

Perhaps it would be helpful to realize I've never suggested anywhere that the resurrection isn't a new life. Nor even partly suggested so. I think you've accidentally mistaken me as having some other view than mine.

 

[Dave Watchman]

According to a recent (2019) Pew poll. Pew is one of the most respected polls in America so there's no reason to doubt their finds. Other findings:

* 65% of American adults identified as Christians, DOWN 12% from 2009

* atheist, agnostic or “nones" now stands at 26%, UP from 17% in 2009.

In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace

Extrapolating outward at 12% per decade that means that in 2070 only 5% of Americans will identify as Protestant.

Truthfully, I was shocked by these statistics. And I have mentioned them to a number of Christians on this board. They seem to be glib on the matter, not really caring from all appearances that their faith is dying on the vine. One member went so far as to question the reliability of any poll that showed Christianity in a negative light. They asked question like, "What specific questions were asked, how did the pollsters ask the question, were they broad or specific in their questions, what kinds of question did they ask, how broad was the sampling, and on and on....a veritable feast of red herring to distract from the very simple finding that Christianity is on the way out in America, following Europe's even more stark downward trend.

What you have written in your post agrees, and confirms 100% with my read of the Script.

All this you see happening now was baked in the cake.

It's a spooky thing to contemplate.

Paul said there would be an apostasy, a falling away, just before the "man of sin" is revealed.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​

Not all have the gut for it.

So I have to ask a few direct questions:

Why is God allowing his faith to bleed to death? Why doesn't God intervene in some miraculous way to stop the hemorrhaging of Christians away from Jesus?

1.) Atheism.

2.) Paganism.

3.) Eastern Mysticism.

4.) Islam.

5.) Judaism.

6.) Catholicism.

7.) Protestantism.

I read these as the seven heads, each with blasphemous names, on the composite beast of Revelation 13.

The first five were fallen, proved false in 95AD, by Jesus' birth, death and resurrection.

The early Christian Church, which became known as Catholicism, was the one that "was" in 95AD when John spoke to the angel.

Protestantism was the one not yet come, but when it did come in 1529, would stay for just a short while.

These seven heads, seven kings, are said to culminate with the eighth king, which I read as Lucifer's theocratic government Babylon.

"This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.​

Like the term "fallen woman", the seven are still in operation. Just proved false.

Come out of her my people.

One mighty visible miracle from God could stop people from leaving Christianity. All God has to do is speak up audibly like he did on Mt. Sinai. If he did it then he can do it again.

Why Doesn't God Intervene?????

I've heard it said to be careful what you ask for.

I read us as being very close to this Intervention.

But just because I believe it, doesn't mean that everyone else has to believe it too.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

What you have written in your post agrees, and confirms 100% with my read of the Script.

All this you see happening now was baked in the cake.

It's a spooky thing to contemplate.

Paul said there would be an apostasy, a falling away, just before the "man of sin" is revealed.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​

Not all have the gut for it.



1.) Atheism.

2.) Paganism.

3.) Eastern Mysticism.

4.) Islam.

5.) Judaism.

6.) Catholicism.

7.) Protestantism.

I read these as the seven heads, each with blasphemous names, on the composite beast of Revelation 13.

The first five were fallen, proved false in 95AD, by Jesus' birth, death and resurrection.

The early Christian Church, which became known as Catholicism, was the one that "was" in 95AD when John spoke to the angel.

Protestantism was the one not yet come, but when it did come in 1529, would stay for just a short while.

These seven heads, seven kings, are said to culminate with the eighth king, which I read as Lucifer's theocratic government Babylon.

"This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.​

Like the term "fallen woman", the seven are still in operation. Just proved false.

Come out of her my people.



I've heard it said to be careful what you ask for.

I read us as being very close to this Intervention.

But just because I believe it, doesn't mean that everyone else has to believe it too.

8 words for God: "Bring it on! Do something, for C---'s sake!"

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Another reason people leave. And sometimes grow up wanting nothing to do with Christianity, if wanting to do anything with religion at all. This is because some elements of Christianity, like the core tenants, are not suitable for children and can be damaging and traumatizing.
Does Christianity Harm Children?

 

[thomas t]

That's what abusive kings tell their subjects. Even if your god did create us, we are not his to do with as he pleases. Just because you have the power doesn't mean your have the right or are in the right.

I don't agree with the analogy of the bolded phrase.
Kings usually don't create their people.
I disagree with the red one.
In my opinion, it's messing with God's rights.

If god wasn't a sadist he would realize his methods have failed and he'd try something else, something more congruent and compatible with our psychology. But he doesn't.

The crucifixion was a great success, as I see it.
Any martyr who was slaughtered just for saying "Jesus was right" could find compfort in Jesus's death who went through the same exact things.

They were fighting to defeat the Nazis. And it had to be a war because humans are not omnipotent. But your god allegedly is. And despite that he keeps resorting to violence to punish the sinners and nothing ever changes. He just keeps going on punishing an judging, and judging and punishing. And he keeps doing this, even though he is also allegedly omniscient, which means he should know his methods are overall ineffective at motivating us and if he wants things to change he has got to change the system itself, because even we humans know it is folly to do the same thing again if it has already failed.
The only explanation to explain all of this that your god is a sadist. He could do anything he wants. His "do anything" including sending his own son to a gruesome death.

As powerful as God may be, one of the creation rules was free will.
There is also another creation rule: triangles can't be squared.
Of course God could create the square triangle, but he would violate his own creation rule.
Same with free will.
So he chooses to leave free will intact.
There is no need to change the system here.

And some people just want to kill. As layed out in the Bible.
So, there also were martyrs saying "kill me if you must". Even today people die for their faith. And all these martyrs found great comfort and edification in what Jesus did. At least when they are Cristian.
This is why the crucifixion was so valuable.

So God found a way of dealing with people who constantly want to kill. Punishing them afterwards I suggest.

 

[Mock Turtle]

There is also another creation rule: triangles can't be squared.

So naughty, that Pythagoras.

 

[thomas t]

Another reason people leave. And sometimes grow up wanting nothing to do with Christianity, if wanting to do anything with religion at all. This is because some elements of Christianity, like the core tenants, are not suitable for children and can be damaging and traumatizing.
Does Christianity Harm Children?

That's the personal opinion of one author.
No studies, no testing, nothing.
Just presumption and one anecdote.
An anecdote can't prove their point that the story was potentially damaging.
Maybe the Catholic way of presenting it was...
In that single case.

The cross - damaging and traumatizing?
No, I don't think so. If you explain to the children that Jesus died for people to get forgiveness for their sins, it's not traumatizing I think.
The whole world could get that forgiveness if they wanted to.
One death for the whole world is not traumatizing, as I see it.
Forgiveness is something nice. Not traumatizing.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I don't agree with the analogy of the bolded phrase.
Kings usually don't create their people.
I disagree with the red one.
In my opinion, it's messing with God's rights.

The crucifixion was a great success, as I see it.
Any martyr who was slaughtered just for saying "Jesus was right" could find compfort in Jesus's death who went through the same exact things.

As powerful as God may be, one of the creation rules was free will.
There is also another creation rule: triangles can't be squared.
Of course God could create the square triangle, but he would violate his own creation rule.
Same with free will.
So he chooses to leave free will intact.
There is no need to change the system here.

And some people just want to kill. As layed out in the Bible.
So, there also were martyrs saying "kill me if you must". Even today people die for their faith. And all these martyrs found great comfort and edification in what Jesus did. At least when they are Cristian.
This is why the crucifixion was so valuable.

So God found a way of dealing with people who constantly want to kill. Punishing them afterwards I suggest.

This is the beauty of faith. It creates a Disneyland for the believer on a little island in the middle of a vast sea of disease, cruelty and ugliness.

 

[halbhh]

What you have written in your post agrees, and confirms 100% with my read of the Script.

All this you see happening now was baked in the cake.

It's a spooky thing to contemplate.

Paul said there would be an apostasy, a falling away, just before the "man of sin" is revealed.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​

Not all have the gut for it.



1.) Atheism.

2.) Paganism.

3.) Eastern Mysticism.

4.) Islam.

5.) Judaism.

6.) Catholicism.

7.) Protestantism.

I read these as the seven heads, each with blasphemous names, on the composite beast of Revelation 13.

The first five were fallen, proved false in 95AD, by Jesus' birth, death and resurrection.

The early Christian Church, which became known as Catholicism, was the one that "was" in 95AD when John spoke to the angel.

Protestantism was the one not yet come, but when it did come in 1529, would stay for just a short while.

These seven heads, seven kings, are said to culminate with the eighth king, which I read as Lucifer's theocratic government Babylon.

"This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.​

Like the term "fallen woman", the seven are still in operation. Just proved false.

Come out of her my people.



I've heard it said to be careful what you ask for.

I read us as being very close to this Intervention.

But just because I believe it, doesn't mean that everyone else has to believe it too.

A helpful principle to remember is that of course some Catholics or Protestants are going to make it (people/souls are not actually controlled much by the random associations they grew up in, and salvation and following is individual) and some or many are not going to make it (in the clear sense He says in Matthew chapter 7), and the same holds for people in any grouping, including ones we like or know and ones we don't.