Just Accidental?

[ArtieE]

As I said, we don't take our definitions from anyone else. We believe in an Intelligent Designer who is responsible for the "natural" as well as the "supernatural" things in existence.

Including itself? Who or what do you believe is responsible for the existence of your Intelligent Designer?

 

[Deeje]

Including itself? Who or what do you believe is responsible for the existence of your Intelligent Designer?

I don't believe anything or any one is responsible for the existence of the Creator. He is not a creation, but an eternal entity, an unknown intelligent force that transcends time and space.....he has no beginning or end, according to scripture. He has the power over life and death and the future of all life on this planet depends upon his ability to sustain it indefinitely.

Look at the interdependent systems operating here on Earth.....all marvelously complex but "just accidental" from your perspective. Consider the location of this unique planet in this particular galaxy, in this particular solar system. What about Earth's proximity to its neighbors...its distance from the sun...its size and shape...the speed of its rotation, the tilt of its axis....all vital to life. The function of its moon and the volume of the oceans it controls is mind boggling. Think about how much water covers this planet and yet very few of Earth's inhabitants can sustain their lives with it. Precipitation is necessary to lift water vapor from the ocean into the atmosphere to fill clouds and dump fresh water over the land areas so that all biological things can survive....plants and animals.
Can you contemplate the magnitude of what you are suggesting if you think this was all a product of random chance? Seriously....

Is it "just accidental" that the earth has perfect recycling systems that need no monitoring or supervision?
We have self sustaining, self replicating creatures who all operate together to make sure that the earth is kept teeming with billions of life forms.....and no one forgets to take out the garbage?

......except stupid humans.

 

[ArtieE]

I don't believe anything or any one is responsible for the existence of the Creator. He is not a creation, but an eternal entity, an unknown intelligent force that transcends time and space.....he has no beginning or end, according to scripture. He has the power over life and death and the future of all life on this planet depends upon his ability to sustain it indefinitely.

That is all very well, but why does this Creator exist in the first place instead of no Creator? Imagine that this Creator of yours hadn't bothered to create anything and only existed alone. Why would it exist at all?

Look at the interdependent systems operating here on Earth.....all marvelously complex but "just accidental" from your perspective. Consider the location of this unique planet in this particular galaxy, in this particular solar system. What about Earth's proximity to its neighbors...its distance from the sun...its size and shape...the speed of its rotation, the tilt of its axis....all vital to life. The function of its moon and the volume of the oceans it controls is mind boggling. Think about how much water covers this planet and yet very few of Earth's inhabitants can sustain their lives with it. Precipitation is necessary to lift water vapor from the ocean into the atmosphere to fill clouds and dump fresh water over the land areas so that all biological things can survive....plants and animals.
Can you contemplate the magnitude of what you are suggesting if you think this was all a product of random chance? Seriously....

There's an estimated 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in our observable Universe. And you claim that not even one of them could be like Earth by random chance? Seriously...

 

[Deeje]

That is all very well, but why does this Creator exist in the first place instead of no Creator?

It's very simple....nothing comes from nothing. Everything has a cause. What comes into existence has something or someone who made it happen. Since the Creator has always existed, he is the cause of everything that exists, but he himself has no cause.

Imagine that this Creator of yours hadn't bothered to create anything and only existed alone. Why would it exist at all?

That is a question only he can answer. Why don't you ask him?
He existed from time immemorial without becoming a Creator, so he does not need anyone or anything.
He is nothing mere humans can test or completely comprehend.

There's an estimated 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in our observable Universe. And you claim that not even one of them could be like Earth by random chance? Seriously...

No one said that there is no planet with similarities to Earth, but what the Bible suggests is that material life as we know it, began here. Since this is the only planet we know that sustains life, it is pure speculation to assume that life exists elsewhere in the universe. No one knows but the Creator himself.

The Bible tells us that we are not the only intelligent life forms however.....spirit beings have been in existence for much longer than the Earth and the material universe. They too are free willed creatures and until the creation of lower intelligent life forms (humans) there was no cause for any of them to feel that they could somehow do better than to serve their God in the capacities that he assigned to them.

One such entity however was jealous of the worship that his God received and apparently harboured resentment about it. But up until the creation of humans, no intelligent life form existed that could give this creature what he desired......worship. All other beings in existence were his equal, so at best, he could be their leader, but not their god. The creation of humans changed all that.

So Genesis is the story about how we lost what God first purposed for this Earth and the living beings upon it. The problems inherent in the abuse of free will began in the spirit realm.....we are just the hostages in this drama. It's not just about humans because we have no real power, but these spirit creatures do and their ability to cause damage in the material world is seen here on earth every day. The influence they have on the way humans behave towards one another is vile....and getting worse by the day.

So the big picture as I see it, is that the Creator doesn't want robots; he wants children who will love him and serve his interests willingly because they appreciate that everything he does is based on love. Everything he has put in place is for the benefit of all of Earth's inhabitants. Only when we want to do things "our way" do we mess everything up.

Challenging the sovereignty of the Creator was a big mistake, but how better to demonstrate the folly of it than to allow free willed creatures to see that they cannot rule themselves independently of their Maker and be successful? He has allowed this life lesson to play out as he knew it would.....but living the lesson means that we will not ever be in a hurry to repeat it. By allowing humans and angels to experience the full and inevitable results of rebellion, God has set precedents for all time to come, so that rebellion can never happen again....in any realm. Then and only then, I believe, can God get on with his plans for the rest of his vast universe, which I am sure he did not create for nothing. He has forever to put life wherever he wishes, in whatever form he wishes. The future will be amazing......I have complete faith in that.

His plans will go ahead with us or without us, so we have the choice to join him in his purpose, or to exit the whole process. If we are not for him, we are against him. He does not separate himself from us...it is we who separate ourselves from him.

 

[ArtieE]

It's very simple....nothing comes from nothing. Everything has a cause. What comes into existence has something or someone who made it happen. Since the Creator has always existed, he is the cause of everything that exists, but he himself has no cause.

And why is there a Creator that has always existed instead of no Creator if there's no cause or reason for this Creator to exist in the first place?

 

[savagewind]

And why is there a Creator that has always existed instead of no Creator if there's no cause or reason for this Creator to exist in the first place?

We can ask you the same question. What is the reason the universe exists in the first place?

 

[savagewind]

From where did the FORCE which started the motion of everything come?

First Law of Motion (all the universe and life is in motion).

Newton

An object at rest will remain at rest unless acted on by an unbalanced force. An object in motion continues in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.

This law is often called
"the law of inertia".

Is Newton wrong?

 

[savagewind]

Atoms are in motion. What is the reason for motion?

 

[ArtieE]

We can ask you the same question. What is the reason the universe exists in the first place?

We know the universe exists the existence of the universe is not in question. We don't know gods exist. If you can give me a logical and rational reason why and how gods would exist instead of not existing it would be very helpful.

 

[savagewind]

We know the universe exists the existence of the universe is not in question. We don't know gods exist. If you can give me a logical and rational reason why and how gods would exist instead of not existing it would be very helpful.

Why not let's call God 'Force'. According to the Law of Motion, the start of motion is by force.

Correct?

 

[savagewind]

The proof of something which was before the universe is that the universe is in motion.
Some of us call that force 'GOD'. I do not care if you will not call the force a god. Why does it matter?
Call it what you will, but do not deny that something had to be before everything because everything is moving.

 

[ArtieE]

The proof of something which was before the universe is that the universe is in motion.
Some of us call that force 'GOD'. I do not care if you will not call the force a god. Why does it matter?
Call it what you will, but do not deny that something had to be before everything because everything is moving.

I have heard the expression "The Force" before. "The Force be with you" and so forth. Are you a Star Wars fan by any chance?

 

[savagewind]

I have heard the expression "The Force" before. "The Force be with you" and so forth. Are you a Star Wars fan by any chance?

No, but you might be. Answer the question! LOL
Was force needed for motion for the beginning of the universe? In other words, is Newton's law of motion correct? Is it real? Was Newton right? Can you not say? LOL

 

[savagewind]

Here's for you @ArtieE

 

[savagewind]

Between a rock and a hard place they are.

 

[Deeje]

And why is there a Creator that has always existed instead of no Creator if there's no cause or reason for this Creator to exist in the first place?

You are asking about the unknowable ArtieE.....the Creator reveals very little about himself except his personality, his power and his purpose for creating us. Without a 'first cause', we know that in the material realm, nothing could exist. Why can't the Creator be that first cause? It had to be something, so why is it so hard to acknowledge it? Life can't just happen accidentally. If it did, we would still see it happening. But we all know that life comes from pre-existing life.....science knows this too but it doesn't stop it from pushing the idea that it must have popped out of nowhere.

 

[ArtieE]

Life can't just happen accidentally. If it did, we would still see it happening. But we all know that life comes from pre-existing life.....science knows this too but it doesn't stop it from pushing the idea that it must have popped out of nowhere.

What kind of an idiot would say that science pushes the idea that life must have popped out of nowhere when abiogenesists are actually pushing the idea that it evolved through chemical evolution?

 

[Deeje]

What kind of an idiot would say that science pushes the idea that life must have popped out of nowhere when abiogenesists are actually pushing the idea that it evolved through chemical evolution?

You think that life is just a bunch of chemicals that can magically arrange themselves into all the life you see on earth?

And you really think that abiogenesists are really going to be able to duplicate the process?

....should we hold our breath waiting for them to succeed?

 

[Olinda]

And what I have said all along is stop inferring that it is established fact when it isn't.

Its a theory...teach it as a theory....subject to change as early as tomorrow.

There are no certainties (or 'established facts') except possibly in personal spiritual experience.. but when there is abundant evidence for something it is reasonable to treat it as a fact.
Shouldn't we teach gravity as a fact?

True science does not go back 500,000,000 years and pretend it knows what happened.

It doesn't put words in the mouths of dead creatures as if what it makes them say is substantiated truth.

True science does not go into spaces of a fraction of a nanometre and pretend to know what happens there... except that your own literature says that it can. Why the double standard?

Do you catch my drift?

Do you understand the difference between proof and evidence? Is the only difference between 'true' and 'false' science based entirely on your current understanding of the Bible?

 

[Deeje]

There are no certainties (or 'established facts') except possibly in personal spiritual experience.. but when there is abundant evidence for something it is reasonable to treat it as a fact.
Shouldn't we teach gravity as a fact?

I wonder how even a 5 year old can test gravity?

Do we know its a fact? I think so.

The "abundant evidence" you speak of is interpreted by those who can make fossils speak a language that God never taught them....a language that academia speaks, but the general population can't really understand.

True science does not go into spaces of a fraction of a nanometre and pretend to know what happens there... except that your own literature says that it can. Why the double standard?

What double standard? True science can prove what it says and can demonstrate it. Evolution cannot be demonstrated in any way. Science saying that there is a link between this fossil and the next one is not based on facts...it is based on supposition.
Last time I looked, "supposing" that something happened, isn't the same as "knowing" something happened. Like I said...teach it as a theory, not a fact.

Do you understand the difference between proof and evidence? Is the only difference between 'true' and 'false' science based entirely on your current understanding of the Bible?

The difference between science fact and science fiction is man's imagination and his ability to sell his point of view to others...it's called marketing. It doesn't have to be true, it just has to sound like it could be.