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Just Accidental?

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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
At best, discussion of a Prime Mover or First Cause would belong in a philosophy or comparative religion course, but it would be unbiased and present various points of view. It doesn't belong in a natural science class as that is outside of the scope of that discipline.

Until they prove how life began, they cannot prove that an Intelligent Designer does not exist as that "First Cause". Put it into whatever class is appropriate, but give it to kids as a reasonable alternative. And don't let them pretend that science has "proven" anything when all it can ever do is "suggest" what "might have" happened when no one was here to document any of it.

The mainstream viewpoint in Catholicism on this issue is theistic evolution.

I am not surprised.....their initial stance on Galileo's position wasn't biblical and their current stance on theistic evolution isn't either.
They have sold out to popular opinion to maintain some credibility for a church system that has failed in every way to maintain truth in worship.
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I know what animals look like. Can you just answer the question? Is there anything you consider as being non-designed? Whether it's a living thing or not?

As everything is a "creation", then it is obvious to me that everything has its place in the scheme of things, whether science has found that place yet or not.
 

AndromedaRXJ

Active Member
As everything is a "creation", then it is obvious to me that everything has its place in the scheme of things, whether science has found that place yet or not.

Then how can you say something looks designed if you don't know what a non-designed thing looks like?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Then how can you say something looks designed if you don't know what a non-designed thing looks like?
Familiarity.

I know what a designed thing looks like even when it isn't biological.

Take the earth itself. Its position in the universe is just right......Our solar system is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “ habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the 'neighborhood' is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” according to Scientific American magazine.

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

Earth has a perfect tilt and spin: Earth’s tilt of about 23.4 degrees causes the annual cycle of seasons, moderates temperatures, and allows for a wide range of climate zones.

Also “just right” is the length of day and night, a result of earth’s spin. If the speed of rotation were substantially slower, the days would be longer and the side of the earth facing the sun would bake while the other side would freeze. Conversely, if the earth were to spin much faster, the days would be shorter, perhaps just a few hours long, and earth’s rapid spin would cause relentless gale-force winds and other harmful effects. (Excerpts taken from "Was Life Created" WTS)

But there are so many "just right" things about the earth, its size, position in the universe, the tilt of its axis, speed of rotation, mixture of gases, its self sustaining, self replicating life forms that just happen to exist in a completely symbiotic way. Is it accidental that trees breathe in what we breathe out and vice versa?
Is water, the most unique substance on this planet, without which no life could be sustained, just an accident of nature?

How many fortunate accidents does it take to produce life on earth as we see it? How far can you take that scenario before it just becomes more ridiculous that the suggestion of a purposeful Creator who happens to be unexplainable to mere mortals? Only you can answer those questions for yourself.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Familiarity.

I know what a designed thing looks like even when it isn't biological.

Take the earth itself. Its position in the universe is just right......Our solar system is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “ habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the 'neighborhood' is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” according to Scientific American magazine.

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

Earth has a perfect tilt and spin: Earth’s tilt of about 23.4 degrees causes the annual cycle of seasons, moderates temperatures, and allows for a wide range of climate zones.

Also “just right” is the length of day and night, a result of earth’s spin. If the speed of rotation were substantially slower, the days would be longer and the side of the earth facing the sun would bake while the other side would freeze. Conversely, if the earth were to spin much faster, the days would be shorter, perhaps just a few hours long, and earth’s rapid spin would cause relentless gale-force winds and other harmful effects. (Excerpts taken from "Was Life Created" WTS)

But there are so many "just right" things about the earth, its size, position in the universe, the tilt of its axis, speed of rotation, mixture of gases, its self sustaining, self replicating life forms that just happen to exist in a completely symbiotic way. Is it accidental that trees breathe in what we breathe out and vice versa?
Is water, the most unique substance on this planet, without which no life could be sustained, just an accident of nature?

How many fortunate accidents does it take to produce life on earth as we see it? How far can you take that scenario before it just becomes more ridiculous that the suggestion of a purposeful Creator who happens to be unexplainable to mere mortals? Only you can answer those questions for yourself.
You have repeatedly jumped from topic to topic throughout this thread so quickly that no sustained discussion of anything is possible. You have not engaged with me in a discussion of human evolution from primates in a thread I specifically created in order to discuss the evidence for that process. I would like you to engage in a discussion of one specific topic within evolution. Choose something and stick with it. If human evolution is not interesting to you choose whale evolution, bird evolution, evolution of flowers, whatever. One topic. Create a thread. And then people can discuss it.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You have repeatedly jumped from topic to topic throughout this thread so quickly that no sustained discussion of anything is possible. You have not engaged with me in a discussion of human evolution from primates in a thread I specifically created in order to discuss the evidence for that process. I would like you to engage in a discussion of one specific topic within evolution. Choose something and stick with it. If human evolution is not interesting to you choose whale evolution, bird evolution, evolution of flowers, whatever. One topic. Create a thread. And then people can discuss it.

Yes, you created a thread to discuss the ins and outs of human evolution.....I thought it was nonsense.
Why do you need me to create one?

As I have said so many times...what does it matter how living things change (adapt), if you don't know how they began? If there is an all powerful Creator who reveals himself to you one day, what will you do with your theory? The existence of a Creator would shoot that theory down in flames and make you feel very foolish, wouldn't it?

I have read articles and book on the subject and I remain as unconvinced as I always was. When you read what they 'really' say as compared to what you think they are saying, a whole other 'truth' emerges that is not truth at all. It is educated guesswork...supposition and assumption. The fact that it is done by supposedly learned people with doctorates and diplomas makes no difference. Even scholars can be swayed by influences within their field....peer pressure affects scientists more than people realize.
The minute someone refutes evolution, the first thing questioned is their intellect. Who wants to be accused of being 'stupid'?

What use is a 'sustained discussion' when there is no evidence to maintain said discussion except what science "suggests" "might have" or "could have" happened in the dim dark past when there was no one there to verify a thing they propose?

The fossil record is lacking in all the places where it could prove that evolution ever took place the way science says it did. Adaptation within a species is one thing, but taking that to ridiculous lengths to explain how all living things evolved from a single celled organism millions of years ago is just plain fantasy IMV.

If you wish to stick to your theory......that is your choice.....but I will stick to my Creator and thank him for my life and the wonders of creation every day....that is my choice.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, you created a thread to discuss the ins and outs of human evolution.....I thought it was nonsense.
Why do you need me to create one?

As I have said so many times...what does it matter how living things change (adapt), if you don't know how they began? If there is an all powerful Creator who reveals himself to you one day, what will you do with your theory? The existence of a Creator would shoot that theory down in flames and make you feel very foolish, wouldn't it?

I have read articles and book on the subject and I remain as unconvinced as I always was. When you read what they 'really' say as compared to what you think they are saying, a whole other 'truth' emerges that is not truth at all. It is educated guesswork...supposition and assumption. The fact that it is done by supposedly learned people with doctorates and diplomas makes no difference. Even scholars can be swayed by influences within their field....peer pressure affects scientists more than people realize.
The minute someone refutes evolution, the first thing questioned is their intellect. Who wants to be accused of being 'stupid'?

What use is a 'sustained discussion' when there is no evidence to maintain said discussion except what science "suggests" "might have" or "could have" happened in the dim dark past when there was no one there to verify a thing they propose?

The fossil record is lacking in all the places where it could prove that evolution ever took place the way science says it did. Adaptation within a species is one thing, but taking that to ridiculous lengths to explain how all living things evolved from a single celled organism millions of years ago is just plain fantasy IMV.

If you wish to stick to your theory......that is your choice.....but I will stick to my Creator and thank him for my life and the wonders of creation every day....that is my choice.
If rejecting the methods and conclusions of science is the way you want to go about your faith, that is entirely upto you. We will have a dispute if and only if you believe that the conclusions of the science of evolution are not in accordance with the usual methods and processes used and accepted in most scientific and engineering fields. If you don't believe that the methods used to conclude evolution happened are sound, then you have no justification for believing the soundness of the same methods when they are applied in other fields when deciding stuff like whether an airplane is going to fly or not, or whether a particular crime has been committed by a certain person or not. What you are doing is an ad hoc rejection of certain parts of science merely because they are against the literalist readings of your holy book, and I am calling out such ad hoc rejections for what they are...sentimental irrationality.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If rejecting the methods and conclusions of science is the way you want to go about your faith, that is entirely upto you. We will have a dispute if and only if you believe that the conclusions of the science of evolution are not in accordance with the usual methods and processes used and accepted in most scientific and engineering fields.

And herein lies the nuts and bolts of the issue. I do not compare true science with theoretical assumptions. Science is not the issue here. Evolutionary science is not testable in the way any other field of science is accredited. Science fact is a whole other ball game to science theory (fiction)...to my way of thinking, the line is so blurred that most have no idea when they have crossed it. "I suggest" is interpreted as "I have proven" certain things to be true.....it isn't so. That is deception.

If you don't believe that the methods used to conclude evolution happened are sound, then you have no justification for believing the soundness of the same methods when they are applied in other fields when deciding stuff like whether an airplane is going to fly or not, or whether a particular crime has been committed by a certain person or not.

Not even close. Sound scientific facts are not 'suggestions' 'suppositions' or 'assumptions'.....they are proven by all the methods that science itself demands to support their own findings. Evolution is NOT in that category at all. There is no way to prove that any of it is truth. The power of suggestion is winning over any real evidence.

What you are doing is an ad hoc rejection of certain parts of science merely because they are against the literalist readings of your holy book, and I am calling out such ad hoc rejections for what they are...sentimental irrationality.

Call it whatever you like.....you have your own 'holy books and prophets'....if you think about it.
I am calling your theory out as the fraud that it is. You seem to have a sentimental irrationality of your own if you can't draw the line of demarcation between truth and supposition.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, you created a thread to discuss the ins and outs of human evolution.....I thought it was nonsense.

Yet you provided no reason for thinking so.
Why do you need me to create one?
In order to understand how you think that leads you to believe in things the way you do. You can gain the same insight into me and only then can fruitful conversation happen. Otherwise this forum is just a place where you vent your own views and I vent mine without any meaningful dialogue. But perhaps venting is all you desire?

As I have said so many times...what does it matter how living things change (adapt), if you don't know how they began? If there is an all powerful Creator who reveals himself to you one day, what will you do with your theory? The existence of a Creator would shoot that theory down in flames and make you feel very foolish, wouldn't it?

No it would not. Its your limited insight that leads you to believe that a Creator God is incompatible with evolution.
What will you do when you finally realize that the God you believe in is delusion in your mind that led you to reject science? Would that not make you look foolish as well? See..its easy to ask rhetorical questions to make yourself feel warm and cozy. I am happy to talk with you when you decide to take this conversation seriously.

And for me it matters a lot how simple one-celled organisms of ancient earth transformed into the plethora of life-forms we see around us over 4 billion years of earth's history. Its something I want to know about and evolution is the best explanation that fits the current evidence. If you do not believe it does, then choose one topic and see what's what in depth.


What use is a 'sustained discussion' when there is no evidence to maintain said discussion except what science "suggests" "might have" or "could have" happened in the dim dark past when there was no one there to verify a thing they propose?

We have already discussed that all science writing in every field uses such language. Science deals with inference to the most probable explanation given current evidence. That is the correct language of science. We are followers of Socrates. We are the wisest people because we know the limits of certainty and uncertainty in our fallible knowledge while fools wallow in the delusions of certainty when in fact they know far less. Reality of the probabilistic nature of knowledge or ignorant delusions of certainty. You get to choose.

The fossil record is lacking in all the places where it could prove that evolution ever took place the way science says it did. Adaptation within a species is one thing, but taking that to ridiculous lengths to explain how all living things evolved from a single celled organism millions of years ago is just plain fantasy IMV.

Evolution of small shrew sized primates 50 million years ago into apes and humans of today is hardly adaptation within species. But hey, if you want to discuss the origins of multi-cellular life from unicellular organisms, I am game. Make a specific thread and ask.

If you wish to stick to your theory......that is your choice.....but I will stick to my Creator and thank him for my life and the wonders of creation every day....that is my choice.
The truth of the matter is no evidence will ever convince you that evolution is true would it? You have chosen not to understand and not to learn. That is the fundamental point.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The truth of the matter is no evidence will ever convince you that evolution is true would it? You have chosen not to understand and not to learn. That is the fundamental point.

Yes, the irresistible force meeting the immovable object. Since we are both set on our own way of thinking, you can stick to your chosen view and I will stick to mine. No amount of debating will solve it for either of us.

You go and post on your thread and I will continue to post on mine. Let the readers use their own discernment.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
And herein lies the nuts and bolts of the issue. I do not compare true science with theoretical assumptions. Science is not the issue here. Evolutionary science is not testable in the way any other field of science is accredited. Science fact is a whole other ball game to science theory (fiction)...to my way of thinking, the line is so blurred that most have no idea when they have crossed it. "I suggest" is interpreted as "I have proven" certain things to be true.....it isn't so. That is deception.

You are woefully mistaken. Evolutionary science is testable in exactly the same way as all science is. For example Mendel's observations pointed to a discrete basis for heredity, a prediction that proved to be true when DNA was discovered. Choose another field of science and I will show you the analogies explicitly. Your complete and total misunderstanding of science is the issue here. I am a scientist, a chemist and not an evolutionary biologist. I see the same identical methods of testing, theory-making, validation and falsification happen there as in my field. Nothing in science can be proven. Proof is something that is the purview of maths not science.



Not even close. Sound scientific facts are not 'suggestions' 'suppositions' or 'assumptions'.....they are proven by all the methods that science itself demands to support their own findings. Evolution is NOT in that category at all. There is no way to prove that any of it is truth. The power of suggestion is winning over any real evidence.

You are mistaken again. Nothing in science can be proven. Evidence can support or suggest that certain theories are true and other theories are false. That is it. A simple example. The Law of Conservation of energy cannot be proven. Evidence of experiments where measurements support the Law suggests that it is probably true. Your cars and planes runs based on such probability analysis.


Call it whatever you like.....you have your own 'holy books and prophets'....if you think about it.
I am calling your theory out as the fraud that it is. You seem to have a sentimental irrationality of your own if you can't draw the line of demarcation between truth and supposition.

Science is about developing the best models of the world based on current evidence. They are best because they are found to be most probable explanations of current observations and whose predictions match the best with what is observed in the future. It is clear that you have no idea what science is about in the first place and hence cannot recognize it when you look at it in the context of the science of evolution.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I couldn't agree more.....there are no non-designed creatures to compare any of them to.
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Look at these "houses" that no one taught these case moths to build. They just chopped down tiny trees and constructed these dwellings with no intelligent direction at all....?
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What about these ones? Just accidents of nature....?

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It's so easy to read the jargon and make assumptions about a lot of things from science literature, but when you observe these things with your own eyes it has to become more difficult for anyone with a modicum of intelligence, to suggest no intelligent direction is evident in the construction. I defy anyone to prove that these are not all the product of directed intelligence, not blind chance.
I'm afraid you're missing or evading the point.

The way we detect design is by comparing it to un-designed things found in nature. This is how we know that computers and paintings are designed, for example. How did you come to the conclusion that these ducks have been designed by a designer when you have no un-designed things to compare them to? In other words, you seem to be just declaring them to be designed because that makes you happy and you really don't have any basis to be making such a claim.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You have yet to prove that a designer does not exist. I believe that creation itself testifies to Intelligent Design.
That's now how the burden of proof works. You're making a claim, so it's on you to back it up. It's not on someone else to prove it wrong.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I'm afraid you're missing or evading the point.
No I didn't miss the point at all....I'm afraid you missed the point.

The way we detect design is by comparing it to un-designed things found in nature. This is how we know that computers and paintings are designed, for example. How did you come to the conclusion that these ducks have been designed by a designer when you have no un-designed things to compare them to? In other words, you seem to be just declaring them to be designed because that makes you happy and you really don't have any basis to be making such a claim.

If was to go for a walk in the woods and I came across a well maintained house with a sign on the door that said "come in, all welcome" and I entered to find a tastefully decorated home with carpeting, lighting, air conditioning, plumbing, a fully stocked pantry and a note to say "make yourself at home." Would I automatically assume that this house just evolved over millions of years with no designer or construction engineer to oversee the project? If I went back into suburbia and told people that I found this amazing place in the woods, would they believe that it had no designer or builder? What would I look like to them if I stuck to my story?....and what would the provider of that house think of me if I continued to spread that assumption, based on the fact that I had never met him and assumed that he did not exist? The philanthropic builder just wanted his visitors to treat the house he provided with respect. He asked nothing in return except that I be mindful that others too would want to enjoy what he had provided.

Planet Earth is that house....with all the things necessary, not only to provide for my needs, but also to cater to my wants, making sure that it was in just the right location, with restful places in beautiful gardens and beside calming waterways. The songs of birds fill the air, and the presence of a variety of animals makes my stay so enjoyable.
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Those who deny the existence of the Creator are those who come into that house and take advantage of the Creator's generosity, vandalizing it and stripping it of its valuable things, selling them to others who only see the monetary value, and bragging about how rich it made them....then saying that no one would be stupid enough to welcome complete strangers into such a stunning house, and since no one has ever met this builder, that must be proof that he is a figment of vivid imagination and the house wasn't built by anyone; it was just a chance falling of trees and the blind actions of microbes and animals.

If in my walk in the woods I also come across a gold Rolex watch.....I assume too that it had no maker, so I marvel at the evolutionary process that created it and take it home.
I could sell that on eBay for a tidy sum.
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That's now how the burden of proof works. You're making a claim, so it's on you to back it up. It's not on someone else to prove it wrong.

The burden of proof is on those who deny the existence of the builder, when the genius of his construction is everywhere. The evidence for his existence is in the complex workings of every living thing on this planet, as well as the planet itself.

There is a branch of science called Bio-mimetics as I am sure you are aware....this is scientists trying to re-create the amazing properties of things seen in the natural world. We get "Velcro" e.g. from the design of a gecko's feet. We get jet propulsion from squid and other marine creatures....they are working on a substance that will mimic the strength of a spider's web, which if translated into human use, could bring down a Jumbo Jet in mid flight.

If it takes great scientific minds with above average intelligence to mimic the things that have existed in nature for perhaps millions of years, so how is it possible to think that the original did not require a Designer and Maker?

It's just logic to me.
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
It's so easy to read the jargon and make assumptions about a lot of things from science literature, but when you observe these things with your own eyes it has to become more difficult for anyone with a modicum of intelligence, to suggest no intelligent direction is evident in the construction.

This is one of the reasons that peer-review and self-correcting mechanisms such as those applied during the course of scientific inquiry are so important. Human beings have a tendency to seek out patterns in our environment as a means of detecting potential dangers and making sense of our world. It’s the reason we see animals in the clouds or faces in our French toast. And it can lead us into believing false things about what is going on around us.

I defy anyone to prove that these are not all the product of directed intelligence, not blind chance.

You claim that all life on earth was designed by some intelligent designer.

I don’t see good reason to believe that.

I’m not making any claim. You are. So you get to prove your claim, not the other way around.

Now lets examine your cited references.....

"While we've always been able to compare and consider all of these creatures on the basis of their physical characteristics, internal anatomy and behavior, it's truly amazing to be able to compare their genetic blueprints and begin to get a close-up look at how evolution brings about change," Wilson says......

Sequencing and assembling the platypus genome proved far more daunting than sequencing any other mammalian genome to date. About 50 percent of the genome is composed of repetitive elements of DNA, which makes it a challenge to assemble properly."
I’m not sure why you’ve highlighted this particular portion. Perhaps you could elaborate.

What I find interesting about this article is that when they sequenced the platypus’ genome, researchers found that the platypus shares 82% of its genes with humans, mice, dogs, oppossums and chickens, which indicates that they are evolutionarily related. They also found genes that support egg laying and lactation which are found in all mammals. They can account for all the various odd features that make a platypus by analysing its DNA and comparing it to that of other animals, which allows them to “date the emergence of genes and traits specific to mammals.”

This quote taken from the article, attributed to the Director of the National Human Genome Research Institute (who is also a Christian) speaks to this point, and the one I was making above:

“"At first glance, the platypus appears as if it was the result of an evolutionary accident," says Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D., director of NHGRI. "But as weird as this animal looks, its genome sequence is priceless for understanding how mammalian biological processes evolved."

"The observed loss of genes involved in gastric functions might be responsible for the anatomical and physiological differences in gastrointestinal tract between monotremes and other vertebrates, including small size, lack of glands, and high pH of the monotreme stomach. This study contributes to a better understanding of the mechanisms that underlie the evolution of the platypus genome, might extend the less-is-more evolutionary model to monotremes, and provides novel insights into the importance of gene loss events during mammalian evolution."

This of course, "assumes" that the gastric function of a platypus was modeled after some pre-existing creature that may have preceded it.

It doesn’t need to make that assumption. The researchers demonstrate via detailed analysis and comparison of the genomes of human, dog, opossum, frog, chicken and lizard, that specific genes have been inactivated or deleted in the platypus and echidna genomes. Read the section titled: “Loss or inactivation of platypus genes implicated in stomach acid secretion.”
Do we have evidence for any creature that this mysterious mammal may have "evolved" from? It has the bill and webbed feet of a duck, the fur and tail of a beaver, it suckles its young with milk and it lays eggs and has venomous spurs......seriously.....where is the evidence that this creature evolved from anything pre-existing? Attempts to explain it become comical.

The evidence of this creature evolving from pre-existing creatures is contained in the articles I have cited.

Is your assertion that some intelligent designer just popped it into existence one day? Can you demonstrate that? Did this designer intentionally create the platypus sharing 82% of its genes with humans, dogs, opposums, mice and chickens, which seems to indicate that it is a product of evolution, or was that just a happy accident? Maybe it was trickery.

"Only two kinds of egg-laying mammals are left on the planet today—the duck-billed platypus and the echidna, or spiny anteater. These odd “monotremes” once dominated Australia, until their pouch-bearing cousins, the marsupials, invaded the land down under 71 million to 54 million years ago and swept them away. New research suggests these two kinds of creatures managed to survive because their ancestors took to the water....

Phillips and his colleagues suggest that platypuses and echidnas made it through the marsupial invasion because their ancestors sought refuge where marsupials could not follow—the water. When marsupials are born, they need to constantly suckle milk for weeks, and as such, newborns could drown if their mothers ever had to swim for long.

The theory seems plausible for platypuses, which are amphibious creatures. Echidnas, however, dwell solely on land."

Oops. There goes the theory....and again we see the power of suggestion....but no real proof of anything they "suggest".

Instead of stopping there, you should have continued to the very next sentence which is, “The investigators used genetics to come up with the answer. They found that echidnas diverged from platypuses only 19 million to 48 million years ago, meaning that echidnas recently had semiaquatic ancestors and only later recolonized the land. A number of features of echidna indicate that they may have once had an amphibious platypuslike forerunner – streamlined bodies, rearward-projecting hind limbs that could serve as rudders, and the contours of a ducklike bill during embryonic development.”

And from the study itself:

“The 61 Ma Monotrematum is the oldest known Tertiary monotreme, with teeth and femora very similar to those of undoubted fossil and living platypuses. The mid-Tertiary origin for crown monotremes inferred in all of our molecular analyses indicates that Monotrematum is a late stem monotreme, and thus that the immediate ancestors of living monotremes already exhibited a platypus-like morphology (911, 56). Therefore, echidnas essentially would be derived, terrestrial platypuses. Compelling evidence for secondary derivation of terrestrial habits from semiaquatic ancestors has been offered previously only for the evolution of elephants (57).

A number of aspects of echidna biology are consistent with an origin from a platypus-like ancestor with such traits as aquadynamic streamlining (58), dorsally projecting hind limbs acting as rudders (59), and locomotion founded on hypertrophied humeral long-axis rotation, which provides a very efficient swimming stroke (60). In echidnas, traits that are potentially homologous with these are dorso-ventral compression, reversed hind-foot posture, and “front-wheel drive” locomotion based on humeral long-axis rotation. Each of these traits would be highly anomalous if derived directly from a more generalized terrestrial insectivore morphotype (typical of basal mammals). The embryologic presence in echidnas of the marginal cartilage that contours the bill of platypuses (58) similarly suggests that a bill (rather than a beak or snout) is ancestral for crown monotremes. Other features of echidnas also suggest a substantial, relatively recent ecological shift. Despite now lacking teeth, relaxation of selection has yet to result in degraded sequences for the tooth matrix protein amelogenin (61). Similarly, the ankle spurs, which are venomous only in platypuses, are retained in many echidnas, despite their derived hind-limb morphology that ensures that they are nonfunctional (54). Finally, the absence of echidna-like fossils before 13 Ma is consistent with mid-Tertiary origins.”

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/40/17089.full

These aren’t just random, unsubstantiated claims being thrown off the top of someone’s head, as you seem to suggest. They are actually based on extensive research and the accumulation of evidence that points to certain conclusions.

It’s evident that you’d just like to declare that you think things look designed and so they must be. But scientists don’t get to do that – they actually have to demonstrate the veracity of their claims.

"This study represents a step towards fully characterizing the first mammal venom transcriptome. We have found similarities between putative platypus toxins and those of a number of unrelated species, providing insight into the evolution of mammalian venom."

What "insight" has this provided, exactly?
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It gives us potentially better insight into the details of evolution that pertain to the platypus.
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“Our searches identified 88 putative platypus venom genes, 83 of which have not been previously identified (OvDLPs, OvNGF and OvCNPs, known to be expressed in platypus venom, were also found in the transcriptome data). It is now clear that the venom of the platypus contains a diverse range of proteins, many of which may be functional analogues of venom components of other species, including reptiles, insectivores, fish, and even invertebrates. Reptiles diverged from the vertebrate lineage 315 million years ago, and platypuses diverged from the rest of the mammals 166 million years ago [5]. The fact that these extremely divergent species share similar venom components, some of which were found repeatedly in platypus and other venoms, suggests that there are indeed protein motifs that are preferentially selected for independent evolution to venom molecules in a striking display of convergent evolution, and that many animal venoms share some similarities in their mode of action [27].”
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No I didn't miss the point at all....I'm afraid you missed the point.


If was to go for a walk in the woods and I came across a well maintained house with a sign on the door that said "come in, all welcome" and I entered to find a tastefully decorated home with carpeting, lighting, air conditioning, plumbing, a fully stocked pantry and a note to say "make yourself at home." Would I automatically assume that this house just evolved over millions of years with no designer or construction engineer to oversee the project? If I went back into suburbia and told people that I found this amazing place in the woods, would they believe that it had no designer or builder? What would I look like to them if I stuck to my story?....and what would the provider of that house think of me if I continued to spread that assumption, based on the fact that I had never met him and assumed that he did not exist? The philanthropic builder just wanted his visitors to treat the house he provided with respect. He asked nothing in return except that I be mindful that others too would want to enjoy what he had provided.

You have given the perfect example to illustrate my point. No, we do not assume the house evolved over millions of years with no designer for a couple of reasons.

  1. We have experience with houses that have lighting, a/c, welcome signs, etc., and we know they are designed and built by human beings. In fact if we wanted to, we could probably find out who built the house and maybe even locate the plans for that house.

  2. We contrast the house with what we find in nature and observe that houses with a/c, indoor plumbing, welcome signs and carpeting are not naturally occurring.
Your example also illuminates the reason I asked you what I did in the first place. In your example, how do you determine that the house is designed, given that you think everything is designed, including everything found in nature? How can you tell the difference between this house and a tree? If everything is designed, how are you differentiating this house from anything else?

Planet Earth is that house....with all the things necessary, not only to provide for my needs, but also to cater to my wants, making sure that it was in just the right location, with restful places in beautiful gardens and beside calming waterways. The songs of birds fill the air, and the presence of a variety of animals makes my stay so enjoyable.
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How about cancer. How enjoyable is that? How about devastating earthquakes that kill thousands of people?

Sure you can focus only on the positive, beautiful stuff that is pleasing to you, and I’m sure that makes your life a happy one. But just because you ignore the ugliness and negative doesn’t mean it isn’t there. If an intelligent designer designed beautiful ducks, this designer also designed all the not-so-pretty things.

Those who deny the existence of the Creator are those who come into that house and take advantage of the Creator's generosity, vandalizing it and stripping it of its valuable things, selling them to others who only see the monetary value, and bragging about how rich it made them....then saying that no one would be stupid enough to welcome complete strangers into such a stunning house, and since no one has ever met this builder, that must be proof that he is a figment of vivid imagination and the house wasn't built by anyone; it was just a chance falling of trees and the blind actions of microbes and animals.

This great Creator shouldn’t have designed things to look like they evolved then, if it wanted us to think otherwise.

If in my walk in the woods I also come across a gold Rolex watch.....I assume too that it had no maker, so I marvel at the evolutionary process that created it and take it home.

I could sell that on eBay for a tidy sum.
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I’m still wondering how you’d even be able to differentiate that watch from all the other things around it which you also believe are designed.

The burden of proof is on those who deny the existence of the builder, when the genius of his construction is everywhere. The evidence for his existence is in the complex workings of every living thing on this planet, as well as the planet itself.
This is a shifting of the burden of proof.

Is it also on the denier to prove the non-existence of magic pixies or the boogie man? Sorry but that defies logic.

There is a branch of science called Bio-mimetics as I am sure you are aware....this is scientists trying to re-create the amazing properties of things seen in the natural world. We get "Velcro" e.g. from the design of a gecko's feet. We get jet propulsion from squid and other marine creatures....they are working on a substance that will mimic the strength of a spider's web, which if translated into human use, could bring down a Jumbo Jet in mid flight.

If it takes great scientific minds with above average intelligence to mimic the things that have existed in nature for perhaps millions of years, so how is it possible to think that the original did not require a Designer and Maker?

It's just logic to me.
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The “original” was nothing close to what we have today. What we currently have are the results of millions and billions of years of evolution.

I wonder why this brilliant designer designed 99.9% of every living thing that has ever existed to go extinct.

I fail to see how our ability to mimic things found in nature is evidence of the design of nature.
 

AndromedaRXJ

Active Member
Familiarity.

I know what a designed thing looks like even when it isn't biological.

How, if you don't know what non-designed things look like?

Take the earth itself. Its position in the universe is just right......Our solar system is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “ habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the 'neighborhood' is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” according to Scientific American magazine.

If Earth didn't have all those things, you'd still say it's designed since you think everything is designed. In other words, Mars with it's lifeless conditions, is designed according to you. Basically your argument is, if something exists, it's designed.

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

Possibly. We know all the other planets could be positioned better, but you still think they're all designed.

How many fortunate accidents does it take to produce life on earth as we see it?

Less than the amount of lifeless planets out there that don't have the right conditions.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Using a brain the size of the tip of a ballpoint pen, the monarch butterfly migrates up to 1,800 miles from Canada to a small patch of forest in Mexico. This butterfly relies on the sun to help it navigate, and it has the ability to compensate for the movement of the sun across the sky.

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Humans with a large brain could not do so without being taught how to navigate the distance and then provide themselves with the means to reach far away places. Why can a mindless butterfly do naturally what an intelligent human can't do without extensive training and conscious effort?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
How, if you don't know what non-designed things look like?

I believe all things are designed to be what they are and where they should be. Mere mortals cannot possibly know what is out there and comprehend the forces that keep it all in place. The laws that are seen in the universe have a source.....what is the source of those laws? What law has no law-giver that doesn't have an intent and a purpose for giving it?

If Earth didn't have all those things, you'd still say it's designed since you think everything is designed. In other words, Mars with it's lifeless conditions, is designed according to you. Basically your argument is, if something exists, it's designed.

Why is Earth the only planet to host life in our solar system? Why is earth the only planet to have an abundance of water? An abundance of vegetation to feed the life that exists here? How does it have just the right mixture of gases and the right temperatures for life to exist in all zones?

I see that you assume so much about nature. Mountains, rivers, rainforests, deserts, all have life exclusive to their environments. Adaptation is seen in species that inhabit different regions, but no species ever evolved into a completely different species. The early horse for example....(if science is even correct about it being an early horse) was still a four legged creature with fur. The eons that it supposedly took to get to our modern horse did not alter its basic structure. And if you look at their proof, what you see is an artist's impression, but nothing real. The reality is in a few bones or teeth, but nothing that is substantial proof of anything. Imagination makes up for what the fossil record lacks.
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It is obvious that horses as we know them have served man for thousands of years and they remain basically unchanged.

Evolutionists take a lot for granted.

Possibly. We know all the other planets could be positioned better, but you still think they're all designed.

If we had to choose a “next-door neighbor” for the earth, we could not improve on the moon. Its diameter measures just over a quarter of the earth’s. Thus, when compared with other moons in our solar system, our moon is unusually large in relation to its host planet. This, however, is no coincidence.
For one thing, the moon is the principal cause of ocean tides, which play a vital role in the planet’s ecology. The moon also contributes to earth’s stable spin axis. Without its tailor-made moon, our planet would wobble like a spinning top, perhaps even tipping right over and turning on its side, as it were! The resulting climatic, tidal, and other changes would be catastrophic.

Just an accident you say.....?

Less than the amount of lifeless planets out there that don't have the right conditions.

Its a big universe and I am certain that the Creator has plans for all of it eventually. But he has to deal with the "bugs" created by the abuse of free will here first. In order to keep it as the beneficial quality it was meant to be, and allow it to be freely exercised within the boundaries he set for it, the Creator is demonstrating what happens when you delete him. This is the godless world we live in. Is free will being exercised in a beneficial way? Not that I can see. The lesson learned will extend into eternity if anyone ever wants to cancel out the Creator again.

Do you believe in the existence of extra-terrestrials Andromeda? I am wondering what you actually think God is?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Until they prove how life began, they cannot prove that an Intelligent Designer does not exist as that "First Cause". Put it into whatever class is appropriate, but give it to kids as a reasonable alternative. And don't let them pretend that science has "proven" anything when all it can ever do is "suggest" what "might have" happened when no one was here to document any of it.
Not a "reasonable alternative." Just as they can't prove a magical personage didn't do it, they can't prove it's not all a computer simulation or that cosmic ants didn't set everything in motion. Presenting anything "not proven" as a legitimate possibility is not reasonable.
Current 'reasonable' ideas are based on mechanisms already observed and known to exist.

As I have said so many times...what does it matter how living things change (adapt), if you don't know how they began? If there is an all powerful Creator who reveals himself to you one day, what will you do with your theory? The existence of a Creator would shoot that theory down in flames and make you feel very foolish, wouldn't it?
This is like dismissing the science of chemistry because we don't know know how atoms came to be.
As yet, there is no evidence of a conscious creator, but even if one were to show up, it would still leave the question of mechanism -- the only question science deals with -- unanswered.


Familiarity.
I know what a designed thing looks like even when it isn't biological.

Take the earth itself. Its position in the universe is just right......Our solar system is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “ habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the 'neighborhood' is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” according to Scientific American magazine.

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

How many fortunate accidents does it take to produce life on earth as we see it? How far can you take that scenario before it just becomes more ridiculous that the suggestion of a purposeful Creator who happens to be unexplainable to mere mortals? Only you can answer those questions for yourself.
From post # 110: "No. You're putting the cart before the horse. Life adapted to planetary conditions, not vice versa, and inasmuch as only a planet in the Goldilocks zone could produce a life form capable of these questions, the argument becomes circular. Who knows how many planets turned out to be duds."

A planet or moon in a different orbit, of a different size, spin, tilt, &c; with a different atmosphere around a different Sun, might well have different 'life' or something similar.
You're arguing from incredulity, based on improbability, but everything is mind-bogglingly improbable. The mathematical chance of anything occurring as and when it does is astronomical; the chance of a particular rock being in a particular position and place on your lawn is astronomically unlikely, but no-one's positing a magical personage to account for it.
 
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