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Just Accidental?

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stevevw

Member
Each human being (as well as most other animals) have between 60 and 200 !mutations per individual. In the case of the human race, that's around one trillion mutations between those individuals alive today. Of course not will will be successful but those that are carried on to the next generation by natural selection.
This still doesn't prove or explain in detail how those mutations and natural selection can build complex structures such as the genome. Besides most mutations in humans are slightly deleterious and below the ability for natural selection to remove from the genome.

As for multidimensional - straw man - we live in 3 dimensions and 3 so 3 dimensions is the natural state. Or perhaps you have isolated a 2 dimensional genetic mutation to allow you to make such an irrelevant claim
It seems when it comes to our DNA and cells it is multi-dimensional or at least we can measure it in multi-dimensional ways.
Multidimensional proteomics for cell biology
Multidimensional proteomics for cell biology : Nature Reviews Molecular Cell Biology : Nature Research
DNA Y structure: a versatile, multidimensional single molecule assay.
DNA Y structure: a versatile, multidimensional single molecule assay. - PubMed - NCBI

Multidimensional Analysis of Single Algal Cells by Integrating Microspectroscopy with Mass Spectrometry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac102702m

 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This still doesn't prove or explain in detail how those mutations and natural selection can build complex structures such as the genome.

Nothing in evolutionary theory needs to be proven. It's a falsifiable conceptual framework judged on its ability to unify observations, provide a mechanism for their existence, make predictions about what can and will not be found in the world, and to generate useful ideas that can be used to anticipate and at times manipulate nature successfully.

This theory does that, and that is why we continue to provisionally accept the truth of it.

And natural selection combined with variation in offspring explains how nature does it. If there are going to be variations in heritable DNA that lead to variation among offspring that then compete with one another for survival and scarce resources, biological evolution becomes inevitable.

Complexity doesn't drive this process, but the process predicts increasing complexity whenever it leads can occur incrementally and confer a selective advantage on the organism.

What could prevent it?.

Notice that there is no constructive argument for creationism, just criticisms of its alternative. No observation has ever made intelligent design more likely than Darwinian (naturalistic) evolution. Every observation ever made is consistent naturalistic evolution, which would be unexpected in an intelligently designed world.

Your implied argument is fallacious in two places:

[1] It is an implied argument from incredulity. Basically, your argument is that life seems too complex to you to have evolved without help. You just can't see how it could have happened, and so reject the possibility. Fine, but you understand that that is an opinion, and an unjustified choice. Many others have no problem seeing how nature might proceed as Darwin proposed it does. Personally, I can't imagine how a zipper works. I could not have imagined it much less invented it without such a concept. But that's not an argument that they can't exist, is it?

[2] You're also positing a more intractable problem as a solution to a lesser one. You think a cell is too complex to assembled itself and begun evolving, so you suggest something uncountable orders of magnitude more complex to account for it.

Neither of those is a sound argument, you have no other sound argument against evolution or for creationism, and you have nothing to replace a successful and productive theory.
 
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Jose Fly

Fisker of men
This still doesn't prove or explain in detail how those mutations and natural selection can build complex structures such as the genome.
What other mechanism "builds a genome"? In all the time we've studied genetics, the only process that we've ever seen generate new genetic sequences is mutation, and the only ways we've seen those sequences become fixed in populations is via selection and drift.

So if we directly observe those mechanisms generating new genetic sequences and fixing them in populations, on what basis are you claiming that they can't do that?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
This still doesn't prove or explain in detail how those mutations and natural selection can build complex structures such as the genome. Besides most mutations in humans are slightly deleterious and below the ability for natural selection to remove from the genome.

It seems when it comes to our DNA and cells it is multi-dimensional or at least we can measure it in multi-dimensional ways.
Multidimensional proteomics for cell biology
Multidimensional proteomics for cell biology : Nature Reviews Molecular Cell Biology : Nature Research
DNA Y structure: a versatile, multidimensional single molecule assay.
DNA Y structure: a versatile, multidimensional single molecule assay. - PubMed - NCBI

Multidimensional Analysis of Single Algal Cells by Integrating Microspectroscopy with Mass Spectrometry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac102702m

You want detail go to college and learn.

Yes 3 dimensions, kind of non interesting considering we life in a whole universe of 3 dimensions.

Seems you have either not understood what read (if you read) or are deliberately trying to make standard dimensional measurement into woo
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
What other mechanism "builds a genome"? In all the time we've studied genetics, the only process that we've ever seen generate new genetic sequences is mutation, and the only ways we've seen those sequences become fixed in populations is via selection and drift.

So if we directly observe those mechanisms generating new genetic sequences and fixing them in populations, on what basis are you claiming that they can't do that?

Well, you can have duplication before the mutation. Technically, the duplication gives a new sequence.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Well, you can have duplication before the mutation. Technically, the duplication gives a new sequence.
True, but in my experience we usually think of duplication events as a type of mutation (mutation being simply a permanent change in DNA). Of course the duplication of an entire genome has its own term, polyploidy, but even that is technically a type of mutation.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
True, but in my experience we usually think of duplication events as a type of mutation (mutation being simply a permanent change in DNA). Of course the duplication of an entire genome has its own term, polyploidy, but even that is technically a type of mutation.

Understood. Many people only think of point mutations when talking about mutations. So things like inversions or duplications can be missed if not careful.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Definition of 'permanent' - a change that is passed to the next generations.

Is that what you mean?

For the third time. yes. A mutation is a change in the genetics that gets passed to the next generation.

The goal is the definition of 'mutation', not the definition of 'permanent'. Changes to the genetics that do NOT get passed to the next generation are not considered to be mutations in this context.
 

Pudding

Well-Known Member
For the third time. yes. A mutation is a change in the genetics that gets passed to the next generation.

The goal is the definition of 'mutation', not the definition of 'permanent'. Changes to the genetics that do NOT get passed to the next generation are not considered to be mutations in this context.

It is possible for mutations to revert, but that requires *another* mutation.
It's just that the statement somehow give me a feeling that it means the DNA is permanently change for forever, that is how i don't get it.

If it's possible for mutations to revert, then it is not a permanent change, is it?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
It's just that the statement somehow give me a feeling that it means the DNA is permanently change for forever, that is how i don't get it.

If it's possible for mutations to revert, then it is not a permanent change, is it?

I understand your point. The definition makes it 'fixed' in the genes. Usually, any reverting mutation happens after many, many generations, so the 'permanence' is a relative thing. Reversions don't tend to happen in only a couple of generations.

So, for example, I have a 'permanent' job. Is it possible that I won't be working here in 10 years? Yes. But I still call it a permanent job.
 

Pudding

Well-Known Member
I understand your point. The definition makes it 'fixed' in the genes. Usually, any reverting mutation happens after many, many generations, so the 'permanence' is a relative thing. Reversions don't tend to happen in only a couple of generations.

So, for example, I have a 'permanent' job. Is it possible that I won't be working here in 10 years? Yes. But I still call it a permanent job.
Thanks for explain.
Now i think about it, the definition for 'permanent' is 'lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely', while the definition for 'indefinitely' is 'for an unlimited or unspecified period of time'. So while permanent can means for forever, but it doesn't necessarily means so. I get it now.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
while the definition for 'indefinitely' is 'for an unlimited or unspecified period of time'.
Indefinite can mean either those two definitions.

But "unspecified period of time" doesn't necessarily mean "unlimited" time or "forever" or "eternity". The period of time could be "long" or "short", it is just "not known", or not predictive or not predictable.

Even "indefinite" doesn't always mean "forever" or "eternity"; it just mean the time is not known. Nor does "unlimited". Both indefinite and unlimited are not always precise.

People and companies often used those words, in advertisements, like you pay x amount of dollars for "unlimited" bandwidth for you mobile or ISP, for a month, quarterly, etc. There may still be limitations or restrictions, or circumstances may changed (for instances, you closed your account, or the company closed down your account (such as they banned you), or the company closed down), or the contract you pay for ended (which may require "renewal"), then the word "unlimited", may have limitations due to either foreseen or unforeseen situations.

All I am saying is that you shouldn't get too hung up on words like "permanent", "unlimited" or even "indefinite".
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
What does 'permanent change' means?
Many organisms have DNA repair mechanisms, where after the genetic copying process they can "fix" some errors. So a mistake during copying that gets repaired prior to the sequence becoming active, it isn't a "mutation". If the genetic change makes it through the repair process and is maintained in the cell, it is a "mutation".

Whether or not that genetic change gets passed on to future generations doesn't matter (in terms of it being classified as a "mutation"). That's why copying errors that have effects to the individual are referred to as "mutations", even if they don't get passed on to future generations.
 
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