Just Accidental?

[gnostic]

Whose 'theology' are we talking about? Christendom"s? It does not even resemble Christ's teachings.

Nor does the Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

No one is telling you what to believe......not even God

Of course He isn't.

This god is doing the perfect imitation of a nonexistent god. Whatever a god that doesn't exist does, this god does it, too.

Why is a god that wants to be known still unknown to the majority of the earth's population?

 

[leibowde84]

Sorry but I do accept the creation and flood stories because Jesus referred to them as actual events and used the flood to illustrate what would happen again....this time not by inundation. (Matthew 24:37-39; Matthew 19:4)



You call it the Genesis myth...I call it the Genesis account. Calling it a myth doesn't make it one.
JW's don't fit in with any of Christendom's terminologies. They don't apply to us because we hold no beliefs in common with them.



On the contrary, we have quite a few scientists in different fields in our ranks. We very much appreciate science...just not when it presents suggestions and then markets them as facts to eliminate the Creator.



You think you know the truth.....but what if you're wrong? By sticking to your beliefs, that there is no Creator, you have way more to lose than we do. I think that in your heart you know this and that is why you are so angry.



Theists can believe whatever they like. But any person who calls themselves a Christian and who supports evolution has sold out to popular opinion to save face. I believe that is the only thing that will get saved.



I believe that Genesis 1 & 2 are literal, historical and scientific as far as we know what happened. There are not many details, so how can we answer questions that are not covered in scripture? No one was there to record the events, so Moses had them revealed to him by the only one who was there. I believe him because I have no reason to think it isn't true. Science certainly has not convinced me otherwise.

The flood was also a literal, historical event IMV. I don't know if it has any science to back it up apart from some archeology.
If they have dug up palm trees under Siberian ice, then that assumes that the earth at one time enjoyed a uniform, temperate climate, which is in keeping with what the Bible says about the water canopy used by God to flood the earth. The volume of water held frozen at the poles, if it thawed, would again flood the world. Isn't that why we are hearing alarm bells with global warming?



I am a believer in Intelligent Design. I believe that there are forces in the universe that science has yet to discover....and beings that exist in other realms. Can science detect them?....define them?....categorically state that they can't exist? No they cannot. All they can say is...we have no way to test for their existence.

Getting rid of the myth mentality might actually help people to see the reality of the Creator's existence. We see the reality of his work all around us, yet there are those who choose not to see. That's OK, the Creator invites whom he invites to see the truth. If people haven't received an invitation, then perhaps they haven't got what he is looking for.

So, obviously there is no way to prove that Jesus actually said those things or that Jesus' claims were accurate. So, in what way is this provable? Or, do you just take it on faith?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Unplanned 'accidents' could not possibly have produced the incredibly complex and inter-dependant systems that operate in creation

Yes, they very possibly could have. You would probably understand that if you had studied science in school.

How amazing that you would agree with Morton. He is a credible scientist who is reinforcing what you want to believe. He deserted the God you want to dismiss....it's just the kind of justification needed to join him. What's not to understand?

Morton is a Christian creationist like you.

But if scientists had not done the work, greedy people could never have exploited their discoveries.

And that makes science the bad guy?

When big pharma is making a motza out of ill health, you won't find them in a hurry to "cure" anything. They are into developing very expensive "treatments" which will invariably have side effects, meaning that they can sell you more "treatments".

Pharmaceutical companies don't cure disease because they don't treat disease. Physicians do that.

Didn't you just say that you weren't anti-science? Do you have a post on this thread about science that isn't anti-science?

What's your level of expertise and experience with the health care industry?

 

[Deeje]

Nor does the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Every command Christ gave is broken by the churches. Would you like a list of the things that identify true Christians as opposed those who only wear the label? Its a long one.....

Would you like to know how JW's differ from Christendom and why?
Would it even matter to you....O expert on Christianity?

 

[gnostic]

Every command Christ gave is broken by the churches. Would you like a list of the things that identify true Christians as opposed those who only wear the label? Its a long one.....

Would you like to know how JW's differ from Christendom and why?
Would it even matter to you....O expert on Christianity?

The only true Christians died out at the end of the 1st century CE.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are not true Christians any more than Christians of other churches or sects.

And you haven't been acting Christian-like towards people you have disagree with. You are arrogant and you have natural tendency to lie.

If you think you are a true Christian and everyone else are not, then you are deluding yourself.

 

[Deeje]

This god is doing the perfect imitation of a nonexistent god. Whatever a god that doesn't exist does, this god does it, too.

Why is a god that wants to be known still unknown to the majority of the earth's population?

Matthew 7:13-14:
“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it."

Since we have the assurance from the scriptures that the majority of the earth's population will reject Jesus as God's appointed King, choosing to go down a popular, easy road, rather than a cramped and narrow one, it stands to reason that he would not reveal himself to those who are heading towards their own destruction. They don't want to know him, so why should he even introduce himself?

When a group of unbelievers wanted to sacrifice to Paul and Barnabas, assuming that they were gods after an apparent miracle, Paul told them to stop because they were just human beings. He said:
"we are declaring the good news to you, for you to turn from these vain things to the living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them. In past generations he permitted all the nations to go on in their ways, although he did not leave himself without witness in that he did good, giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying you with food and filling your hearts with gladness.” (Acts 14:15-17)

God has not withheld good things even from the wicked, though he could have.

Paul also wrote about those who suffer tribulation at the hands of godless men.....
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10:
"This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you."

This might not mean a lot to someone who is convinced that the Creator does not exist, and that the Bible is not God's word.....but to believers, the warning has been issued. We see that there are only two categories of people who need to be concerned about the future....."those who do not know God" because they don't want to know him....."and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus" ....those who know about God but do nothing to acknowledge the sacrifice of his son.

We all have the same choices about this....we can believe it or not.

 

[Polymath257]

We all have the same choices about this....we can believe it or not.

Quoting from your book of myths isn't convincing to those who don't believe your myths. Try giving some *actual* evidence.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Since we have the assurance from the scriptures that the majority of the earth's population will reject Jesus as God's appointed King, choosing to go down a popular, easy road, rather than a cramped and narrow one, it stands to reason that he would not reveal himself to those who are heading towards their own destruction. They don't want to know him, so why should he even introduce himself?

That doesn't answer my question, one that addresses the potency and effectiveness of a god to be known, not the failure of people:

IANS: "Why is a god that wants to be known still unknown to the majority of the earth's population?"

You can treat it as a rhetorical question, one to which the asker isn't expecting a useful answer, the asking and the answering (or ignoring) of the question making a point.

When I was a Christian, I learned about a different god, one that loved every one of us and very much wanted us to know Him. You're describing a god that can't be bothered to do more than write a book every few millennia, and in the last edition, predicted how many people won't be able to find Him.

Incidentally, if you mentioned the biblical prediction to show just how prescient your Bible is and how likely it is that it was authored by a divine source, keep in mind that predicting that more people would reject any given religion than accept it is something any mortal could do, and is exactly what we would expect if this god was nonexistent. A real god that wanted to be known would be known by as many and considered as real as the sun for the same reason.

This might not mean a lot to someone who is convinced that the Creator does not exist, and that the Bible is not God's word

That is correct. It's really pointless for you to reproduce scripture to unbelievers if you are intending it to be read as authoritative. I don't actually read it when that is your message. I will read it if we are settling a dispute about what the Bible says.

We all have the same choices about this....we can believe it or not

That's not always correct.

I've lost the ability to believe at will, assuming that I ever had it. Even as a naive child that would believe just about anything, I wasn't believing by choice. I just didn't have the defenses against unreasonable propositions that I do now, which actually make believing as an act of will even more difficult. I need a compelling reason to believe, without which I cannot, and after which, I cannot disbelieve.

 

[Polymath257]

I've lost the ability to believe at will, assuming that I ever had it. Even as a naive child that would believe just about anything, I wasn't believing by choice. I just didn't have the defenses against unreasonable propositions that I do now, which actually make believing as an act of will even more difficult. I need a compelling reason to believe, without which I cannot, and after which, I cannot disbelieve.

This is actually one of the more confusing aspects of certain religious viewpoints for me. I don't see how belief is a choice. I either believe because I have been convinced or I do not believe because I haven't. If I find the evidence inconclusive, I don't believe. That doesn't mean I believe it is wrong. It just means I haven't been convinced yet either way.

I don't see where there is a *choice* to be made. I can *pretend* to believe. And whether or not to pretend is a choice. I can tell people I believe in spite of not being convinced. And that is a choice. But the actual belief isn't a choice. I have either been convinced or I have not. To say I have when I have not is dishonest.

 

[Deeje]

Quoting from your book of myths isn't convincing to those who don't believe your myths. Try giving some *actual* evidence.

You think God will give you more "evidence" than what is right under your nose? You think he needs to provide 'special' evidence to convince you personally? He will not do more than he already has. Millions believe based solely on existing evidence......you don't believe it, so what more is there to say? You can never say you weren't told.

 

[Sapiens]

You think God will give you more "evidence" than what is right under your nose?

It is only "under someone's nose" if you are permitted to claim and create it. I rather prefer professorial pontification based on evidence that I can grasp to Deeje being elected prophetess with the power to dictate, based on her self-identified (and enjoyed) level of ignorance, what I should and should

You think he needs to provide 'special' evidence to convince you personally? He will not do more than he already has. Millions believe based solely on existing evidence......you don't believe it, so what more is there to say? You can never say you weren't told.

Me personally? No. Educated and knowledgeable people in general? Might be a good idea.

 

[Deeje]

That doesn't answer my question, one that addresses the potency and effectiveness of a god to be known, not the failure of people:

IANS: "Why is a god that wants to be known still unknown to the majority of the earth's population?"

To understand the situation as it stands today, you have to go back to the beginning and ask what God's original purpose was....why humans were given choices that could spell disaster for them....and what God has done to accomplish his will, retain the precious gift of free will, and bring everything back to his original purpose for creation.

That is what the Bible is.....its a documented history of how things started; what happened with the abuse of free will to derail things temporarily, how God chose a people to become his test pilots for free will and using their history (as awful as it often is) to demonstrate what happens when humans obey the Creator and the disastrous outcome when they don't.

We are in the outworking of a complicated legal case that the Creator has with an adversary; a slanderer who lied to humanity about God's right to set reasonable limits for the exercise of free will.
Free will was never truly "free" to begin with. Unless it is exercised with the free will of others in mind, it creates despots who laud it over others, robbing them of their own God-given right to make their own choices. Our choices come from our heart and tell God who we really are.

Every inhuman act perpetrated by someone on either other humans with less power, or on helpless animals, is a clear demonstration of the abuse of free will. Domination of humans with power is something God never intended at the start. Dictatorship in the human experience is invariably evil because power corrupts them......sometimes 'absolutely' as the saying goes. Humankind were not designed to accommodate 'evil' because it was never meant to enter their lives. The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" was placed in God's jurisdiction....to be his exclusive determination....it was not supposed to be revealed to humankind because it would be of no benefit to any of them. If only they had obeyed, no evil would ever have been experienced. Imagine living in a world where evil did not exist....? God will bring it back, but only after the lesson has served its purpose. To date, everything has gone to plan.

History is full of the heinous acts of cruel and powerful dictators......but what if there was a benevolent dictator who was not cruel or vindictive and who wielded his power in a positive way, for the benefit of all his obedient subjects? Would it be a chore to live under such a rulership? If he acted swiftly to eliminate all causes of abuse, would we not welcome such a ruler?

The legal case that God has with his adversary has almost concluded.....a verdict has been reached, witnesses have presented their evidence and the adversary and all those he has conned into believing his side of the story have already heard the sentence to be executed. They are all on 'death row'.....its only a matter of time before the sentence is carried out. No one knows when that will be.
This is what the Bible teaches, but only in this 'time of the end' is a worldwide 'witness' given before 'the end comes'. (Matthew 24:14) It is a time of judgment, "just as the days of Noah". (Matthew 24:37-39)

Jehovah's people have been giving this witness now for the last 100 years in all nations and languages. We know that the ones who will respond are "few" compared to the world's population, but that is what is prophesied. Again....believe it or not.

With the mindset of most people these days, its almost like they have to be convinced against their will....that is not the position of JW's at all. Our will is in sinc with God's will...perhaps that is the difference?

 

[Deeje]

This is actually one of the more confusing aspects of certain religious viewpoints for me. I don't see how belief is a choice. I either believe because I have been convinced or I do not believe because I haven't. If I find the evidence inconclusive, I don't believe. That doesn't mean I believe it is wrong. It just means I haven't been convinced yet either way.

What most people don't understand is that this choice is not made with just the analytical mind....it is a response of the heart moved by God's spirit. (John 6:44) No one can come into a relationship with the King of Kings unless they have received an invitation from the Father.

I don't see where there is a *choice* to be made. I can *pretend* to believe. And whether or not to pretend is a choice. I can tell people I believe in spite of not being convinced. And that is a choice. But the actual belief isn't a choice. I have either been convinced or I have not.

Spirituality is a condition of the heart....so again, it isn't just a conscious decision of the mind made on hard evidence.
Conviction comes from entirely different place.

 

[Polymath257]

What most people don't understand is that this choice is not made with just the analytical mind....it is a response of the heart moved by God's spirit. (John 6:44) No one can come into a relationship with the King of Kings unless they have received an invitation from the Father.

Isn't that *convenient*? I call BS.

Spirituality is a condition of the heart....so again, it isn't just a conscious decision of the mind made on hard evidence.
Conviction comes from entirely different place.

I see. So it isn't a rational conclusion, but an irrational opinion?

My heart is a muscular organ in my chest. Emotions, like thoughts, are aspects of the brain.

In any case, thanks for admitting there is no hard evidence for your beliefs. Given that, I find no reason to believe.

 

[Polymath257]

History is full of the heinous acts of cruel and powerful dictators......but what if there was a benevolent dictator who was not cruel or vindictive and who wielded his power in a positive way, for the benefit of all his obedient subjects? Would it be a chore to live under such a rulership? If he acted swiftly to eliminate all causes of abuse, would we not welcome such a ruler?

I most certainly hope that we would NOT welcome such a ruler!!!!

And there is the biggest difference: you wish to have someone control you. I do not. You wish to live under a benevolent dictator. I do not.

Even the most benevolent dictator is still a dictator. The loss of freedom is an evil that is not eliminated by the benevolence of the ruler.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You think God will give you more "evidence" than what is right under your nose?

God needs to give evidence of Himself. Then we can discuss connecting Him to our universe.

You think he needs to provide 'special' evidence to convince you personally?

No. General evidence would do.

He will not do more than he already has.

We're well aware of that. And He has done nothing as always. It's the signature of this god and how you know itis Him: He always perfectly imitates a non-existent god.

Millions believe based solely on existing evidence......you don't believe it, so what more is there to say? You can never say you weren't told.

Muslims tell us that as well. What do you say to them? You were warned abut Islamic hell - and over a billion believe it is real on existing evidence, so don't say that you weren't told. If you find yourself in Allah's hell instead of Jehovah's heaven, whose fault will that be? Yours for your refusal to acknowledge your true creator.

A Muslim would admonish you to just look at the universe, which screams, "Allah!" and tell you that the evidence is all right under your nose. You can choose to believe or not. Allah will not force you,

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

To understand the situation as it stands today, you have to go back to the beginning and ask what God's original purpose was....why humans were given choices that could spell disaster for them....and what God has done to accomplish his will, retain the precious gift of free will, and bring everything back to his original purpose for creation.

That is what the Bible is.....its a documented history of how things started; what happened with the abuse of free will to derail things temporarily, how God chose a people to become his test pilots for free will and using their history (as awful as it often is) to demonstrate what happens when humans obey the Creator and the disastrous outcome when they don't.

We are in the outworking of a complicated legal case that the Creator has with an adversary; a slanderer who lied to humanity about God's right to set reasonable limits for the exercise of free will.
Free will was never truly "free" to begin with. Unless it is exercised with the free will of others in mind, it creates despots who laud it over others, robbing them of their own God-given right to make their own choices. Our choices come from our heart and tell God who we really are.

Every inhuman act perpetrated by someone on either other humans with less power, or on helpless animals, is a clear demonstration of the abuse of free will. Domination of humans with power is something God never intended at the start. Dictatorship in the human experience is invariably evil because power corrupts them......sometimes 'absolutely' as the saying goes. Humankind were not designed to accommodate 'evil' because it was never meant to enter their lives. The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" was placed in God's jurisdiction....to be his exclusive determination....it was not supposed to be revealed to humankind because it would be of no benefit to any of them. If only they had obeyed, no evil would ever have been experienced. Imagine living in a world where evil did not exist....? God will bring it back, but only after the lesson has served its purpose. To date, everything has gone to plan.

History is full of the heinous acts of cruel and powerful dictators......but what if there was a benevolent dictator who was not cruel or vindictive and who wielded his power in a positive way, for the benefit of all his obedient subjects? Would it be a chore to live under such a rulership? If he acted swiftly to eliminate all causes of abuse, would we not welcome such a ruler?

The legal case that God has with his adversary has almost concluded.....a verdict has been reached, witnesses have presented their evidence and the adversary and all those he has conned into believing his side of the story have already heard the sentence to be executed. They are all on 'death row'.....its only a matter of time before the sentence is carried out. No one knows when that will be.
This is what the Bible teaches, but only in this 'time of the end' is a worldwide 'witness' given before 'the end comes'. (Matthew 24:14) It is a time of judgment, "just as the days of Noah". (Matthew 24:37-39)

Jehovah's people have been giving this witness now for the last 100 years in all nations and languages. We know that the ones who will respond are "few" compared to the world's population, but that is what is prophesied. Again....believe it or not.

With the mindset of most people these days, its almost like they have to be convinced against their will....that is not the position of JW's at all. Our will is in sinc with God's will...perhaps that is the difference?

Still no answer to, "Why is a god that wants to be known still unknown to the majority of the earth's population?"

You've declined multiple requests to answer. Perhaps it was an inconvenient question.

No problem.

 

[Jose Fly]

You think God will give you more "evidence" than what is right under your nose? You think he needs to provide 'special' evidence to convince you personally? He will not do more than he already has. Millions believe based solely on existing evidence......you don't believe it, so what more is there to say? You can never say you weren't told.

Hilarious. Gotta love how Christians go from "God loves you" to "God isn't going to do anything for you personally. Who do you think you are?"

 

[gnostic]

Since most "Christians" find it hard to fit into the criteria set by Jesus, then perhaps it is those who identify as "Christians" who are unaware of their own ignorance, having been just as brainwashed by a corrupted belief system as the science students are today.

This is plain stupidity and bias.

There are number of Christians who accept science, and number of them worked in all different branches or fields, and not just in biology.

You wrote "science students", not "biology students". That's a very broad brush to paint every Christians who ever study "science" as brainwashed.

To say all Christians, who are science students, and are being brainwashed by science, just show you are seriously deluded. You are basically telling them that they are too stupid to think for themselves.

Is this what Jehovah's Witnesses really teaches people?

I think the only ones who are brainwashed, Deeje, is you are one of them. Go see a psychologist, because you really need help, and you need deprogramming if this is what JW are teaching you.