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Just Accidental?

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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I have provided enough evidence to show you clearly that Catholicism is based on sun worship..
Have you no shame whatsoever whereas you perpetuate such lies? I provided you with links to show what Catholics actually believe and worship, but that's not good enough for you. If your JW leaders are teaching you that it's all fine & dandy to lie as you are continuing to do, then you are doing the opposite of what Jesus taught.

How did the 'holy day' of the week get to be moved to "Sunday" when there was no command from God to alter it? Is it a case of none so blind?...being led by blind guides?
The move to "the Lord's Day" was made when the church became overwhelmingly gentile during the early part of the 2nd century even though it became the law in Roman areas during the 4th century. Since I assume you're not Jewish, what's your problem, as you are not bound by Jewish Law, Deeje?

Macro-evolution is as much "faith" based as ID is.
This fits in well with your "sun-worship" lies.

I've had enough, Deeje, although I'm still going to speak out against the lies and bigotry like you persistently spout out. What a shame.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Have you no shame whatsoever whereas you perpetuate such lies?

I have as much "shame" as my Master. The religious Jews didn't like what he said either.....it didn't make him a liar though.
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I provided you with links to show what Catholics actually believe and worship, but that's not good enough for you. If your JW leaders are teaching you that it's all fine & dandy to lie as you are continuing to do, then you are doing the opposite of what Jesus taught.

On the contrary....Jesus exposed the hypocrisy of the religious leaders of his day and made no apology for it. Any internet search will reveal what history already knows metis. It wasn't revealed by my JW leaders....it is common knowledge. Why do you think there was a Reformation? The whole non-Catholic world knows why Luther posted his list.
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Where have you been?

The move to "the Lord's Day" was made when the church became overwhelmingly gentile during the early part of the 2nd century even though it became the law in Roman areas during the 4th century. Since I assume you're not Jewish, what's your problem, as you are not bound by Jewish Law, Deeje?

Since there was no command for Christians to hold a Sabbath at all, there is your answer. There was no scriptural reason to have a "holy day" set aside for worship in Christianity, let alone one that was already held in honor of the sun god whose worship was adopted by Roman Catholicism under a new name. Christians were to be imitators of Christ.....a nation of evangelizers....not pew sitters reciting meaningless repetitious words in some kind of weekly ritual. That is not the Christianity Christ started.....not even close.
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I've had enough, Deeje, although I'm still going to speak out against the lies and bigotry like you persistently spout out. What a shame.

The "shame", comes from supporting a corrupt system of worship that God could never condone. But it is your choice metis....just as mine is my choice. I was raised in Christendom, so I know what I'm talking about. The most rudimentary knowledge that a Christian can have is about God's kingdom. It was the theme of Christ's entire ministry....yet ask a dozen Christians of any denomination "what is the kingdom of God that Jesus taught us to pray for in the Lord's Prayer?" and see what they answer? If they say that prayer every week in church, but have no clue as to what they are praying for....what is the point? I rattled off that prayer every week in church but when I was asked what I was praying for exactly, I realized that I didn't have a clue. Who is responsible for that level of ignorance do you think?
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Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Are you proud of science for that?
We haven't been as epic as to flood an entire planet. Science says it isn't even possible. So, there's that.

How can you dismiss these as 'just accidental'?
They're as accidental as the pictures you DON'T like to put up, like diseases and deformities.

Time for the pretty pictures again.
I'm getting to the point where I prefer these (but then again, I'm more and more like a Grouch from Sesame Street the older I get):
http://pre08.deviantart.net/1f98/th/pre/i/2012/066/b/3/cyber_goth_4_by_kimidori_apple-d4s19pq.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1iNdCqkhoDY/hqdefault.jpg
http://cdn5.ihorror.com/app/uploads/curry.jpg (I loves me some Curry, LOL)
https://thesocialman.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/nature-is-scary-the-social-man.jpg

How many of the Jews saw the truth in what Jesus was saying and changed their course? Not many.
Imagine you hear a man say to give everything you work hard for while he bums around mooching off of everyone else.

Imagine you hear a man he can make magic food and the hungry are still hungry the next day.

Imagine you hear a man can heal sickness and yet there are still sick people.

Imagine you hear a man say faith can move mountains and yet you have to turn to stories of some blue-skinned kid in India from way back when to see an example.

Imagine you hear a man claims he comes for the sick (in spirit), yet constantly hangs out with everyone but the actual spiritually sick, the ones in power.

Imagine you hear a man call for keeping the faith on the DL and then constantly make public spectacles.

Imagine you hear a man claim he is of God and yet keeps his church closed during a sto ... no wait, that's some other fraud....

I've heard it said that if Jesus and the apostles weren't being entirely honest, they'd be called out on it, but amusingly enough, that's precisely what their critics did. The critics were just demonized, though, and not entertained as valid opinions.

How is this not sun worship?
There are only so many ways to draw something.

Living evidence of the master craftsman's workmanship.
My friend with cancer is dying of such masterful workmanship.

Shouldn't we give credit where it is due?
The Manufacturer can't just delete the 1 star reviews to make Himself feel better.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
We haven't been as epic as to flood an entire planet. Science says it isn't even possible. So, there's that.

Does science know all there is to know?
352nmsp.gif
What if the land areas were much lower pre-flood to what they are now? And what if the volume of water altered the landscape so that mountains were thrust up and deep valleys were created on the ocean floor? Science does not know that a global flood is impossible, nor can it rule out an Intelligent Designer.

They're as accidental as the pictures you DON'T like to put up, like diseases and deformities.

When man defected away from his Creator, declaring that he believed what the serpent told the woman and that they would be better off without him, (and would not die) why would God continue to bless mankind as he had first intended as if he was supporting their new found independence? He stepped out of the picture to allow them to experience the full consequences of their actions. He told them to obey him, but they obviously did not believe him. As free willed beings, they had to be shown where that course would ultimately lead them. Disease, suffering and death were included in that outcome. They asked for it...they got what they asked for.

Imagine you hear a man say to give everything you work hard for while he bums around mooching off of everyone else.

Imagine you hear a man he can make magic food and the hungry are still hungry the next day.

Imagine you hear a man can heal sickness and yet there are still sick people.

Imagine you hear a man say faith can move mountains and yet you have to turn to stories of some blue-skinned kid in India from way back when to see an example.

Imagine you hear a man claims he comes for the sick (in spirit), yet constantly hangs out with everyone but the actual spiritually sick, the ones in power.

Imagine you hear a man call for keeping the faith on the DL and then constantly make public spectacles.

Imagine you hear a man claim he is of God and yet keeps his church closed during a sto ... no wait, that's some other fraud....

I've heard it said that if Jesus and the apostles weren't being entirely honest, they'd be called out on it, but amusingly enough, that's precisely what their critics did. The critics were just demonized, though, and not entertained as valid opinions.

All of that is like looking at another world behind a big wall through a very small crack. Your view is so skewed, it isn't even close to how it is. This is the object lesson of all object lessons. In order to show humans that independence is not as beneficial for them as they imagined, he has allowed them to experience it without his intervention. So at the end of the day, every human has been tried and tested as to fitness to live on the other side of the wall, as free willed beings content and happy to love and obey their Father, who was not afraid of meting out 'tough love' in order to take them somewhere wonderful as a reward for their faith in him. Living forever here on earth in paradise conditions has always been God's purpose for humankind.

My friend with cancer is dying of such masterful workmanship.

I have lost many friends to cancer myself. But what if I was to tell you that cancer can be cured and that medical researchers have known for decades how to cure all sorts of cancer, but would not let it out of the lab because there is a fortune to be made out of ill health....especially cancer treatments.

"In America today, more money is spent to treat cancer than to treat any other disease by far. In fact, according to NBC News, 100 BILLION dollars was spent on cancer drugs just last year alone..."

"Needless to say, there are a lot of people out there that are becoming exceedingly wealthy treating this disease.

And the cost of some these drugs is absolutely absurd. According to NBC News, two of the latest cancer drugs to be developed "are priced at $12,500 a month"..."


Cancer as a business model: $100 billion spent on chemotherapy drugs last year -- Sott.net

Are you getting the picture?

The Manufacturer can't just delete the 1 star reviews to make Himself feel better.

He has a future waiting for all those who can see through the propaganda used against him. I know it seems damning to those unaware of the reasons, but as I have mentioned before, it is like a parent allowing a precious child to endure a very painful series of operations to correct a genetic defect permanently....with a guarantee that it will never need to be done again.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Please demonstrate this.I expect your demonstration to rise to the level of evidence that scientists have provided for the theory of evolution.

LOL....you mean by making suggestions and assumptions....and by means of nice illustrations? I already did.
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Deeje said:
Godless humans, on the other hand are destroying the only home we have. Science has contributed more to this situation than religion ever knew how to. Do they have solutions to the mess they have created down here? I can't see any.

I guess you wanted to steer clear of this part then....?

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Why do you suppose that science's contribution to this is something to be proud of? Why do you paint science as the best thing that ever happened to mankind? The age of modern science has contributed to the worst human impact that planet Earth has ever experienced. We all know that if this situation is not halted, then the earth will continue to punish us for what we have done to it.

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Climate change is not a myth. It will only get worse. Who is listening?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Just expressing my bewilderment that you seemed to just now realize that certain posters have no interest in truth nor do they have any shame.

Yes, I know just how it feels. :facepalm:

Sniper fire is a poor substitute for substantive evidence JF....none of which is ever forthcoming from you. This is all you have.

I'm sortofa "vet" when it comes to responding to her bigotry and dishonesty-- no bewilderment here.

Not that you ever proved that I am a bigot or that I posted anything that was not the truth....let's at least be honest about that, metis.

You didn't defend anything I said about the RCC, so we have to assume that you have nothing to counter the arguments?
You cannot defend the indefensible. You "attend wife's Catholic Church" but its not your church, is it? Are you defending it on her behalf? You cannot be defending it for yourself otherwise you would identify as Catholic. "Ecumenical" is another way of throwing your hands up and saying "I dunno"....isn't it? How do you ever argue from such a position? :shrug:
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Yes, I know just how it feels. :facepalm:

Sniper fire is a poor substitute for substantive evidence JF....none of which is ever forthcoming from you. This is all you have.
^^^^^^^^This.....this right here Deeje....there's only one word that describes the above (given the number of times I've posted THIS to you and you've ignored it), and it's a word that's been ascribed to you many times by many different people. And I'm quite sure all the "interested readers" you like to refer to know exactly what that word is too.

Now, I'm not going to say the word because there's no need; we all know what it is. But I will point out for future reference that when you get it thrown in your direction again, what you just said above is a perfect example of why.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
^^^^^^^^This.....this right here Deeje....there's only one word that describes the above (given the number of times I've posted THIS to you and you've ignored it), and it's a word that's been ascribed to you many times by many different people. And I'm quite sure all the "interested readers" you like to refer to know exactly what that word is too.

Now, I'm not going to say the word because there's no need; we all know what it is. But I will point out for future reference that when you get it thrown in your direction again, what you just said above is a perfect example of why.

And I will reply in exactly the same way as I did before. Just Accidental?

My religion is not the topic of this thread and nothing you have ever posted here has proven beyond reasonable doubt that macro-evolution ever happened. You have a belief system, not proven scientific facts.
If you can show us the evidence that is not reliant on supposition or suggestion or belief, then I am sure we are all ears.
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
LOL....you mean by making suggestions and assumptions....and by means of nice illustrations? I already did.
128fs318181.gif
No, I mean like with empirical evidence, as I said. As in, an actual demonstration of the things you claim to be facts. Like science does.
As mentioned to you over and over again, scientists do far more than just look at pictures of ducks and zebras and make superficial judgments about them that they cannot demonstrate. That's what you do.



You are not doing what scientists do. You are deluding yourself if you think so.

I will await your empirical demonstration of the facts you claim about the world. If you could do that, you'd be on par with the scientists you denigrate for working hard to discover the things that can be known about our universe. Until then, you're just making things up.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
@Jose Fly

For the benefit of the undecided readers here....will you please address the questions...pretend I am not here since my beliefs so disturb you.

Do it for them....they must be wondering why you are procrastinating and throwing up all these excuses?

The questions were nothing to do with me or my faith. They pertain to simple, yet vital components to continued life on this planet.......so can you answer them? Can any evolutionist provide the answers? Let's see.....?

Defend your theory....or can't you?
Support has been provided, repeatedly and ad nauseum. Your response has consistently been either ignoring posts that you find inconvenient to your beliefs or a rather childish and non-evidentiary "is not, is not!"
Just in case they have been buried under all the empty rhetoric....here are the questions again.....

*Is the mixture of gases here in our atmosphere just a fluke? If there was a bit more oxygen in the mix, then every spark would cause an explosion. We could never light a fire to keep warm or cook our food. Every thunderstorm would be life threatening.

*Is the earth's size, distance from the sun, the tilt of its axis, and the speed of its rotation, all just coincidental?

*It is also coincidental that trees and vegetation breathe out what we breathe in and vice versa?...providing a self sustaining supply of a basic necessity, based on a system of mutually beneficial interactions that just happened....for no apparent reason?

*Plants and insects also demonstrate this amazing relationship with pollination....its all just a fluke though....right? :shrug:

*Is it accidental that the vast quantities of water on this planet are not consumable by its land dwelling creatures and that precipitation just magically transforms salt water into fresh water so that all land dwellers and vegetation can survive? What would happen if the oceans were fresh water instead of salt?

*Is it just a fluke that water floats when it freezes, when no other liquid does? What would happen if that was not the case? Think of all those creatures in the polar regions who live on and under the ice.

*Is it just coincidental that nature's 'garbage disposal experts' just happen to operate the greatest recycling program in existence to ensure that the millions of dead bodies don't litter the earth to stink up the place?

*Is it a fortunate coincidence that the moon controls the tides and that these tides provide vital functions for earth's tidal waterways and oceans? It stabilizes earth's rotation. Its the perfect 'nightlight', having a surface largely made of glass which is designed to reflect just the right amount of light to the earth.

*Haven't excursions into space proven that there is no real evidence of intelligent life anywhere else?

You have no more "evidence" for macro-evolution than I have for my Creator.....but I have so much more by way of logical evidence in the real world than you do IMO....and what's more, I don't need a science degree to appreciate them.

Feel free to tell us how all this was just a series of fortunate coincidences that just happened with no intelligent direction or planning......these questions have nothing to do with religion.



I'm sure there will be many waiting for your learned response....or anyone else's.
All fully answered about a week ago.
Does science know all there is to know?
352nmsp.gif
What if the land areas were much lower pre-flood to what they are now? And what if the volume of water altered the landscape so that mountains were thrust up and deep valleys were created on the ocean floor? Science does not know that a global flood is impossible, nor can it rule out an Intelligent Designer.
Science does, indeed, know that there is no evidence whatsoever of a global flood. Consider the idiocy of your suggestion, water can not upthrust heavier sediments ... it is a simple buoyancy question. You claim your
deity could walk on water, now you are making the same claim for mountains.
When man defected away from his Creator, declaring that he believed what the serpent told the woman and that they would be better off without him, (and would not die) why would God continue to bless mankind as he had first intended as if he was supporting their new found independence? He stepped out of the picture to allow them to experience the full consequences of their actions. He told them to obey him, but they obviously did not believe him. As free willed beings, they had to be shown where that course would ultimately lead them. Disease, suffering and death were included in that outcome. They asked for it...they got what they asked for.
This assumes all sorts of things that are not in evidence ... what's next? Talking asses?
All of that is like looking at another world behind a big wall through a very small crack. Your view is so skewed, it isn't even close to how it is. This is the object lesson of all object lessons. In order to show humans that independence is not as beneficial for them as they imagined, he has allowed them to experience it without his intervention. So at the end of the day, every human has been tried and tested as to fitness to live on the other side of the wall, as free willed beings content and happy to love and obey their Father, who was not afraid of meting out 'tough love' in order to take them somewhere wonderful as a reward for their faith in him. Living forever here on earth in paradise conditions has always been God's purpose for humankind.
I never cease to be amazed at how naively, and obviously, you guys attempt to overcome all logical argument by just making it up as you go.
I have lost many friends to cancer myself. But what if I was to tell you that cancer can be cured and that medical researchers have known for decades how to cure all sorts of cancer, but would not let it out of the lab because there is a fortune to be made out of ill health....especially cancer treatments.
Theoretically, if you were to say that, then I'd suggest that paranoia had gotten the best of you and I'd recommend psychiatric care.
"In America today, more money is spent to treat cancer than to treat any other disease by far. In fact, according to NBC News, 100 BILLION dollars was spent on cancer drugs just last year alone..."

"Needless to say, there are a lot of people out there that are becoming exceedingly wealthy treating this disease.

And the cost of some these drugs is absolutely absurd. According to NBC News, two of the latest cancer drugs to be developed "are priced at $12,500 a month"..."


Cancer as a business model: $100 billion spent on chemotherapy drugs last year -- Sott.net
Those quotes are not authoritative, they are from a site that specializes in quote mining in service of pandering to paranoiac propensities.
Are you getting the picture?
Yes, but you clearly are not.
He has a future waiting for all those who can see through the propaganda used against him. I know it seems damning to those unaware of the reasons, but as I have mentioned before, it is like a parent allowing a precious child to endure a very painful series of operations to correct a genetic defect permanently....with a guarantee that it will never need to be done again.
That's just more paranoid rationalization, no logic, no data, no thought.
Yes, I know just how it feels. :facepalm:

Sniper fire is a poor substitute for substantive evidence JF....none of which is ever forthcoming from you. This is all you have.
Substantive evidence has been presented and repeatedly supported ... you just stick your fingers in your ears, sniper fire has been effective also, but you are so afflicted by the Black Knight Syndrome that you don't comprehend it.
Not that you ever proved that I am a bigot or that I posted anything that was not the truth....let's at least be honest about that, metis.
You prove yourself a bigot by touting your membership in an organization that is clearly bigoted when it comes to other Christian churches and LGBTQs.
You didn't defend anything I said about the RCC, so we have to assume that you have nothing to counter the arguments?
You cannot defend the indefensible. You "attend wife's Catholic Church" but its not your church, is it? Are you defending it on her behalf? You cannot be defending it for yourself otherwise you would identify as Catholic. "Ecumenical" is another way of throwing your hands up and saying "I dunno"....isn't it? How do you ever argue from such a position? :shrug:
[/quote]Even I, an atheist, can see the bigotry implicit in calling Catholics, "sun worshipers," and this video put out by your organization is bigoted in ever so many ways.
And I will reply in exactly the same way as I did before. Just Accidental?
You mean that reply that was shredded back on 8 September 2017? You are pretending to cross the river using a burnt bridge.
My religion is not the topic of this thread and nothing you have ever posted here has proven beyond reasonable doubt that macro-evolution ever happened. You have a belief system, not proven scientific facts.
You have made your religion an ancillary topic of this thread and have had your head handed to you. Now you want to pretend that never occurred.
If you can show us the evidence that is not reliant on supposition or suggestion or belief, then I am sure we are all ears.
thankyou.gif
Asked and answered ... ad infinitum.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Does science know all there is to know?
352nmsp.gif

There are plenty that science know about the earth, including ancient climate and natural disasters, but there are of course, some that cannot yet be explained.

But what it doesn't explain, doesn't mean that we can attribute these event to any divine or supernatural phenomena or event (eg Flood).

What if the land areas were much lower pre-flood to what they are now?

Here, you are making assumptions, but you have not presented any evidence to support your speculative question.

You cannot even produce WHEN this alleged Genesis Flood occur.

What date did you think Noah and the Flood happen?

Unless you know that, you cannot possibly compare the Flood to any geological and archaeological evidence.

And if there were such flood that happened globally, there would be signs of such flood, in the soil, on the rocks, on the tree rings, and on any archaeological sites that may have survive the flood, like buildings, not just in one location or region, but everywhere, around the world, since you are claiming it to be a "global" flood.

A flood that lasted nearly a year, should leave so many signs, dating to the same time. But there have been no such evidences.

If you think the lands, including the mountains were "much lower" as you claim, then you must show empirical evidences that all land areas were indeed "much lower", and that it occurred at this date that you proposed for the Deluge.

There are many evidences, that no global flood occurring during the history of man, during the last 5000 years or even the last 10,000 years.

According to Genesis 8, the ark rested on top of one of mountains of Ararat. Today, the highest peak (Greater Ararat) is 5137 metres high.

Evidences showed that there have only being 2 major volcanic eruptions in antiquity (meaning during the Bronze Age and Iron Age). One in the Bronze Age, occurring some time between 2500 and 2400 BCE, another about 550 BCE, Iron Age. Since this last one, there have only 3 minor volcanic activities.

None of these activities or eruptions showed that volcano of Greater Ararat changed its elevation significantly to warrant your speculative "much lower" lands, as you are claiming. Most of the rise of the mountains of Ararat, occurred millions of years before the appearances of the Homo sapiens.

Much of the mountains at Ararat and around it, started in Middle to Late Eocene epoch, and then Miocene epoch, and even the Pliocene epoch, where the region was more active. No humans were around this time.

The biggest volcanic activity when humans were around, occurred around 2500-2400 BCE, where it destroyed one Bronze Age settlement, of Kura-Araxes culture.

This Kura-Araxes actually started in Armenian plateau, about 3400 BCE, as Neolithic culture, producing specifically designed pottery. The Kura-Araxes culture spread as far north as Caucasus, which continued to exist till 2000 BCE.

If my calculation his right, that using any modern translation of Old Testament bible, based on the Masoretic source, then the Flood would have occurred around 2340 BCE.

Now, i am right about when Flood possibly happened, then the entire region of Armenian Plateau should be covered under water, killling everyone there. The people of Kura-Araxes culture should have died out, and SHOULD NOT BE producing the same style of pottery.

The archaeological evidences that this Kura-Araxes pottery remain the style of that entire region, unchanged, then the Flood could not have happened.

If there were pre-Flood and post-Flood cultures, existing in that region, you would expect one culture would end, and new culture would begin, with a new type or style of pottery. But that's not the case, in the region, near the mountains of Ararat.

The very fact that culture exist throughout much of the 3rd millennium BCE, demonstrated that no such Flood occur.

It is the same with 3rd millennium BCE Mesopotamian civilisation in the southeast, Egyptian civilisation in the southwest, or the palace-building of Minoan Crete in the west. No interruptions to these cultures, only prove that such a Flood never happened.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
No, I mean like with empirical evidence, as I said. As in, an actual demonstration of the things you claim to be facts. Like science does.

Lets see what science does so that we can compare......

How about we start with the definition of "empirical evidence"......?

"The word "empirical" indicates information gained by means of observation, experience, or experiments. A central theme of science and scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical, or at least empirically based, that is, it should depend on evidence or results that can be observed by our senses."

OK....What has been "observed" and "experienced" by scientists' 'senses' regarding macro-evolution"? Who was there to observe all this evolving? :shrug:
No one apparently because humans were millions of years from making an appearance on this earth....all we have left are assumptions and guesswork about this period.

So what about "experiments"? What has science observed in the lab that leads them to conclude that amoebas became dinosaurs and everything in between in the pre-historic past before humans were even here?

"Speciation" I have heard many of you say. So what is "speciation" and how is it proof of macro-evolution?

This is from Britanica..... speciation | Causes, Process, & Types

"Speciation, the formation of new and distinct species in the course of evolution. Speciation involves the splitting of a single evolutionary lineage into two or more genetically independent lineages. . . .There are many hypotheses about how speciation starts, and they differ mainly in the role of geographic isolation and the origin of reproductive isolation (the prevention of two populations or more from interbreeding with one another)."

Here is an example of speciation on the Galapagos Islands among its finches.

54911-004-94F3A5F9.jpg


"Empirical implies that the information is based on experience, and data is information we gather about something. Thus the information acquired by scientists through experimentation and observation is called empirical data. Gathering empirical data is an essential part of the scientific process."

So how do we "observe" these finches by the gathering of "empirical data"? A quick look at the diagram above reveals a glaring consistency......the birds are all still finches. They have not "evolved" outside of their taxonomic family.....and haven't to this day. The same applies to "Hawthorn Flies" and "Stickleback Fish" and Bacteria and Viruses. None have been observed to become anything other than a new species of the one they started with. None have moved out of their taxonomic families at all, to become something different. All breed "according to their kind".

Britanica goes on to say.....
"The central argument of Darwin’s theory of evolution starts with the existence of hereditary variation. Experience with animal and plant breeding had demonstrated to Darwin that variations can be developed that are “useful to man.” So, he reasoned, variations must occur in nature that are favourable or useful in some way to the organism itself in the struggle for existence. Favourable variations are ones that increase chances for survival and procreation. Those advantageous variations are preserved and multiplied from generation to generation."

OK....so what is this telling us? That Darwin "reasoned" that variations "must occur in nature that are favorable to or useful in some way to the organism itself in the struggle for existence"....and he was right! It is called "adaptation"....a marvelous mechanism built into the DNA of every living species on earth to facilitate their survival in changing environments. What was never observed and has never been observed is a single family of creatures evolving into something completely different to their ancestors.

So much for gathering empirical evidence.....eh?

In this regard science has no superiority over ID.

As mentioned to you over and over again, scientists do far more than just look at pictures of ducks and zebras and make superficial judgments about them that they cannot demonstrate. That's what you do.

What is observed by our senses ST? What "superficial judgments" are we making that science doesn't? Are you so brainwashed that you can't see past the gigantic fraud that evolutionary science actually is? Suggestions are not facts and never will be. "Reasoning" that something "must have" taken place because you want to believe it is hardly scientific. If you have no proof...it isn't a fact and never was.

You are not doing what scientists do. You are deluding yourself if you think so.

I can make assumptions and guesses and extol a belief just as well as you can. I believe that the delusion is with you lot, but you pretend to have all this evidence, and yet, when it is asked for, nothing of substance is ever forthcoming.

I challenge you to produce evidence for macro-evolution that is not dependent on belief, supposition or assumption. Those are the things that creationists get accused of relying on, so show us how you prove that evolutionary science is true without them.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I will await your empirical demonstration of the facts you claim about the world.

My empirical facts are not just empty words....they are observed with the senses.

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C'mon ST....tell us how all these beautiful 'accidents' descended from a single celled organism that popped into existence accidentally, for no apparent reason, billions of years ago? My empirical evidence is observed with my eyes and ears. What do you see?

I could fill pages with these creatures and you would still say that they had no Intelligent Designer.

What is the difference between man's designs and God's?

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Both require intelligence and ingenuity. All demonstrate purpose. Purpose requires planning. No one would suggest that these things could pop into existence on their own by undirected chance. Why do you assume that infinitely more complex mechanisms could come into existence undesigned and undirected?

If you could do that, you'd be on par with the scientists you denigrate for working hard to discover the things that can be known about our universe.

I do not denigrate all scientists.....I denigrate those who use fake evidence to give the impression that science has proven evolution to be a foregone conclusion. It is anything but, and the tone of the so-called scientists who look down their learned noses at someone who calls them out on the simple truth, have not provided a scrap of real evidence in spite of all the bluster, to refute any of it.

Until then, you're just making things up.

No, you're mixing up science with Intelligent Creation. Scientists are the ones making things up.
 
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ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Both require intelligence and ingenuity. All demonstrate purpose. Purpose requires planning. No one would suggest that these things could pop into existence on their own by undirected chance. Why do you assume that infinitely more complex mechanisms could come into existence undesigned and undirected?
And yet your intelligent Designer is supposed to exist undesigned and undirected killing your argument stone dead.
 
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