Just Accidental?

[siti]

Well yeah, sure, nothing is impossible, technically. Including being dealt 4 royal flushes in a row by random chance.

Well yeah - the probability of getting four royal flushes in a row is a little less than 1.8 x 10^23 - but remember that each cell has its own deck of cards. So if you were to take a population of bacteria equivalent to the number that inhabit the average human body (about 4 x 10^13) and they each deal themselves a hand from a standard 52 card deck just once every hour the chances of one of them getting four royal flushes in a row during the 70 year life span of the average human is just 1 in 7500 - or in other words, a genetic event as unlikely four royal flushes in a row can be expected to happen among the bacteria inhabiting human beings about a million times during the seventy year life span of the current human population - or in other words, a genetic event as unlikely getting four royal flushes in a row happens approximately twice a day in the genome of a bacterium inhabiting a human somewhere on the planet. By contrast, a genetic event as unlikely as getting just two royal flushes in a row would happen on average about every 30 seconds in the bacterial populations of every human on the face of the planet. Of course none of this has anything to do with real genetics and I don't have any idea what kind of genetic event would have an equivalent probability - but you brought poker into it - and again the numbers are definitely not on your side.

 

[savagewind]

I think that mathematically four royal flushes in a row is possible, but in real life, it isn't.

 

[siti]

I think that mathematically four royal flushes in a row is possible, but in real life, it isn't.

Of course its possible - it is just extremely unlikely in a game of cards. For a single human playing a normal game the odds against any four consecutive hands all being royal flushes are about 1 chance in 1.8x10^23. If every single human on the planet played continuously and was dealt a new hand every minute we could expect just one of them to get four royal flushes in a row about every 87 years. The point about genetics is that there are an unbelievably huge number of cells with genetic material in them and the game has been going on for 3.8 billion years. If our hypothetical game of cards was allowed to continue that long four royal flushes in a row would have happened more than 43 million times. In the creation vs evolution numbers game, evolution just has all the cards.

 

[ArtieE]

If there's an estimated 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in our observable Universe where chemical reactions take place what are the chances that chemical and biological evolution managed NOT to take place on ANY of them? I think it would take a god to prevent it from happening. Probably the best evidence for the existence of God would be if NO planets was like Earth and had life because somebody would have to have deliberately prevented life from arising.
How Many Planets Are In The Universe?

 

[Deeje]

If there's an estimated 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in our observable Universe where chemical reactions take place what are the chances that chemical and biological evolution managed NOT to take place on ANY of them? I think it would take a god to prevent it from happening. Probably the best evidence for the existence of God would be if NO planets was like Earth and had life because somebody would have to have deliberately prevented life from arising.
How Many Planets Are In The Universe?

You raise a good point and one where it is reasonable at this time in history to say that no life has been found on any planet or moon in our vicinity of the universe or anywhere outside of it. Scientists have tried by all the means at their disposal to encounter life "out there"....but to no avail. There is just silence.

I believe that the Bible provides the reason, just as you suggested...."Probably the best evidence for the existence of God would be if NO planets were like Earth and had life because somebody would have to have deliberately prevented life from arising."

Yet, with such a huge universe, why would he do that? Why would he not prepare other planets for habitation?

All things in this material universe had to have a beginning. The Bible gives us a reasonable explanation for creation if it is interpreted correctly. There is no "magic" involved. There are powers that are presently unknown to science, just as there are realms unknown to them, but that does not mean that they cannot exist. Nor does it mean that humans are the only intelligent life forms either.

If the earth had a beginning and it was unihabitable at first, then prepared specifically for life to not only exist, but to thrive, what possible reason could there be for the rest of the universe to be empty and devoid of such life?

One good reason is "free will". In gifting intelligent creatures with free will, there was always a risk of them misusing it. You cannot force a free willed being to do anything against their will. All you can do is punish them for not exercising it in the correct way. It takes education and experience to allow a free willed being to see the benefits of exercising their gift unselfishly....and the consequences of not doing so. If used to rob others of their right to free will, then how do you demonstrate that without letting them learn the hard way? He allowed humans to choose....and we have lived the outcome of their decision.

At first, the Creator implemented just one law. The "knowledge of good and evil" was placed in his exclusive jurisdiction....meaning that God was the one who had the right to decide what was good and what was bad. That right was never given to humans. The penalty for taking what belonged to God was death.

The first rebel influenced humans to break that law because he wanted them to serve his interests and the only way he could do that was by taking them away from their Creator. Under his influence, they have been confusing right from wrong ever since.

So telling his children to obey him and even implementing a penalty for disobeying him, wasn't enough. They chose to learn the hard way, through the bitter experience that would follow. And here we are.....what have we learned? Apparently, very little as a race, though individually, for some of us, the penny has dropped. We understand what it means to exercise free will in an unselfish way, deferring to God's direction in all things. Independence and self rule have been a disaster. Obeying the Creator would have saved us so much suffering.

But until all humanity reach that conclusion, God's purpose to populate the universe will wait. All the "bugs" needed to be ironed out of the arrangement first, before God would spread free willed life anywhere else. Those who cannot, or will not use their free will to the benefit of others first, will never fit into God's plans for his vast universe. He sets before us obedience and life....or disobedience and death. There are no other alternatives. What has been demonstrated here, in all the years of human existence, will have established precedents for all time to come, meaning that there will never again be a challenge to the rightfulness of God's rulership over his material creation. Having vindicated his sovereignty and eliminated all rebels. He will then be able to finish his project......eternity is enough time to do whatever he pleases....with us or without us.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You raise a good point and one where it is reasonable at this time in history to say that no life has been found on any planet or moon in our vicinity of the universe or anywhere outside of it. Scientists have tried by all the means at their disposal to encounter life "out there"....but to no avail. There is just silence.

I believe that the Bible provides the reason, just as you suggested...."Probably the best evidence for the existence of God would be if NO planets was like Earth and had life because somebody would have to have deliberately prevented life from arising."

Yet, with such a huge universe, why would he do that? Why would he not prepare other planets for habitation?

All things in this material universe had to have a beginning. The Bible gives us a reasonable explanation for creation if it is interpreted correctly. There is no "magic" involved. There are powers that are presently unknown to science, just as there are realms unknown to them, but that does not mean that they cannot exist. Nor does it mean that humans are the only intelligent life forms either.

If the earth had a beginning and it was unihabitable at first, then prepared specifically for life to not only exist, but to thrive, what possible reason could there be for the rest of the universe to be empty and devoid of such life?

One good reason is "free will". In gifting intelligent creatures with free will, there was always a risk of them misusing it. You cannot force a free willed being to do anything against their will. All you can do is punish them for not exercising it in the correct way. It takes education and experience to allow a free willed being to see the benefits of exercising their gift unselfishly....and the consequences of not doing so. If used to rob others of their right to free will, then how do you demonstrate that without letting them learn the hard way? He allowed humans to choose....and we have lived the outcome of their decision.

At first, the Creator implemented just one law. The "knowledge of good and evil" was placed in his exclusive jurisdiction....meaning that God was the one who had the right to decide what was good and what was bad. That right was never given to humans. The penalty for taking what belonged to God was death.

The first rebel influenced humans to break that law because he wanted them to serve his interests and the only way he could do that was by taking them away from their Creator. Under his influence, they have been confusing right from wrong ever since.

So telling his children to obey him and even implementing a penalty for disobeying him, wasn't enough. They chose to learn the hard way, through the bitter experience that would follow. And here we are.....what have we learned? Apparently, very little as a race, though individually, for some of us, the penny has dropped. We understand what it means to exercise free will in an unselfish way, deferring to God's direction in all things. Independence and self rule have been a disaster. Obeying the Creator would have saved us so much suffering.

But until all humanity reach that conclusion, God's purpose to populate the universe will wait. All the "bugs" needed to be ironed out of the arrangement first, before God would spread free willed life anywhere else. Those who cannot, or will not use their free will to the benefit of others first, will never fit into God's plans for his vast universe. He sets before us obedience and life....or disobedience and death. There are no other alternatives. What has been demonstrated here, in all the years of human existence, will have established precedents for all time to come, meaning that there will never again be a challenge to the rightfulness of God's rulership over his material creation. Having vindicated his sovereignty and eliminated all rebels. He will then be able to finish his project......eternity is enough time to do whatever he pleases....with us or without us.

Are you familiar with the term unshared premise? An argument that begins with an assumption not shared by your target audience is stillborn. Nothing that follows from an argument that assumes the existence of a god has any merit to an atheist, just as any argument that assumes that gods don't exist would be meaningless to you.

 

[siti]

You raise a good point and one where it is reasonable at this time in history to say that no life has been found on any planet or moon in our vicinity of the universe or anywhere outside of it. Scientists have tried by all the means at their disposal to encounter life "out there"....but to no avail. There is just silence.

Assuming that any messages beamed toward us travel at the speed of light, any message from a technologically advanced civilization at the other side of the milky way galaxy would have to have been transmitted at least 75,000 years ago (our solar system is about 25,000 light years from the centre of the galaxy and the galaxy is about 100,000 light years across) for it reach earth by now. Our first radio signals have travelled about 100 light years across space so they cover a spherical portion of galactic space about 200 light years in diameter. Those signals will not reach intergalactic space for tens of thousands of years and it will be another 2.5 million years before they reach our nearest neighbouring galaxy. And even if there were a technologically advanced civilization that evolved a million years earlier than our own in the Andromeda galaxy, none of their signals will reach here for another 1.5 million years yet. If we do ever manage to make contact with aliens, I sincerely hope they don't put us on hold and start playing that bloody annoying music.

Anyway, the point is, "all the means" at the disposal of scientists are presently extremely crude. But the more we learn the more likely it seems that life probably does exist elsewhere in the universe. A couple of decades ago, we had no observational data to prove that any other stars hosted planets at all - let alone potentially habitable ones. We now know for certain (thanks largely to the Kepler mission) that there are literally thousands - with hundreds approximately "earth-like" in the "habitable zones" of their host stars in a small part of the sky roughly corresponding the size of you fist held at arms length and within about 9000 light years of earth (i.e. an exceedingly small portion of our galaxy). The challenge for any and all technologically advanced civilizations, including our own, would be to make their presence known before rendering themselves extinct.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Assuming that any messages beamed toward us travel at the speed of light, any message from a technologically advanced civilization at the other side of the milky way galaxy would have to have been transmitted at least 75,000 years ago (our solar system is about 25,000 light years from the centre of the galaxy and the galaxy is about 100,000 light years across) for it reach earth by now. Our first radio signals have travelled about 100 light years across space so they cover a spherical portion of galactic space about 200 light years in diameter. Those signals will not reach intergalactic space for tens of thousands of years and it will be another 2.5 million years before they reach our nearest neighbouring galaxy. And even if there were a technologically advanced civilization that evolved a million years earlier than our own in the Andromeda galaxy, none of their signals will reach here for another 1.5 million years yet. If we do ever manage to make contact with aliens, I sincerely hope they don't put us on hold and start playing that bloody annoying music.

Anyway, the point is, "all the means" at the disposal of scientists are presently extremely crude. But the more we learn the more likely it seems that life probably does exist elsewhere in the universe. A couple of decades ago, we had no observational data to prove that any other stars hosted planets at all - let alone potentially habitable ones. We now know for certain (thanks largely to the Kepler mission) that there are literally thousands - with hundreds approximately "earth-like" in the "habitable zones" of their host stars in a small part of the sky roughly corresponding the size of you fist held at arms length and within about 9000 light years of earth (i.e. an exceedingly small portion of our galaxy). The challenge for any and all technologically advanced civilizations, including our own, would be to make their presence known before rendering themselves extinct.

Good post. You seem familiar with the Fermi paradox and Drake equation.

I expect that life will be found in our solar system, albeit not intelligent life. I expect that life forms wherever possible,and there are some moons in our solar system with oceans that have probably existed unmolested for billions of years. Enceladus, Europa, and Titan (and possibly Callisto, and Ganymede) are all thought to have liquid oceans:

Ocean Worlds - The Quest for Life | Missions - NASA Solar System Exploration

 

[Deeje]

The challenge for any and all technologically advanced civilizations, including our own, would be to make their presence known before rendering themselves extinct.

Bingo! How close do you think we are?

Mother earth is already complaining bitterly about man's mismanagement. Yet we continue on our merry way for the sake of commerce with a fat salary and materialistic lifestyle. Meanwhile the majority of humans live in abject poverty. We won't share.....even when we have a surplus, we will not give it to those in need.....why?

This is why the Bible's explanation makes so much more sense to me. If life is accidental then there is no purpose to it....it just is....eat, drink, make babies...die.

Intelligence is wasted on us if all we want to do is rape the earth for profit and blow each other to bits. If we kill the planet first, we are all doomed anyway......such a rosey picture......NOT.

I can't live like that.....I am programmed for a whole other life and so are the vast majority of people. Why is our collective desire for peace and security with our loved ones in beautiful surroundings? Is that just accidental?

 

[siti]

Intelligence is wasted on us

Clearly!

 

[Deeje]

I posted this on another thread.....it makes sense.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10155046569752909

Humans are the planet's biggest problem. The Creator designed systems to work beautifully and then man stepped in and ruined everything.

Whales creates the environment to produce the huge amounts of food they consume. The more whales there are, the more food there is for them. Their activities are designed to produce more plankton which take carbon from the air and lock it away deep in the ocean. Its a brilliant bit of design.

 

[gnostic]

Bingo! How close do you think we are?

Mother earth is already complaining bitterly about man's mismanagement.

If you are talking about “management”, then assuming you that you are correct that God is real and he exists, then if the Earth was his creation, and he is like the CEO or president of the company, then any mismanagement made by the lowly humans, so the fault for the mismanagement lies ultimately with God.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Bingo! How close do you think we are?

Mother earth is already complaining bitterly about man's mismanagement. Yet we continue on our merry way for the sake of commerce with a fat salary and materialistic lifestyle. Meanwhile the majority of humans live in abject poverty. We won't share.....even when we have a surplus, we will not give it to those in need.....why?

This is why the Bible's explanation makes so much more sense to me. If life is accidental then there is no purpose to it....it just is....eat, drink, make babies...die.

Intelligence is wasted on us if all we want to do is rape the earth for profit and blow each other to bits. If we kill the planet first, we are all doomed anyway......such a rosey picture......NOT.

I can't live like that.....I am programmed for a whole other life and so are the vast majority of people. Why is our collective desire for peace and security with our loved ones in beautiful surroundings? Is that just accidental?

Because living in fear and dying in agony (or watching it happen to our loved ones) are generally terrible things that people hope to avoid. No god or god belief is required to recognize that.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I posted this on another thread.....it makes sense.



Humans are the planet's biggest problem. The Creator designed systems to work beautifully and then man stepped in and ruined everything.

Whales creates the environment to produce the huge amounts of food they consume. The more whales there are, the more food there is for them. Their activities are designed to produce more plankton which take carbon from the air and lock it away deep in the ocean. Its a brilliant bit of design.

Then it seems to me that this Designer really messed things up by creating humans. Perhaps "he" should have avoided it, had "he" wanted to preserve his creation. Humans can't be responsible for creating themselves into existence.

 

[ArtieE]

Humans are the planet's biggest problem. The Creator designed systems to work beautifully and then man stepped in and ruined everything.

Heh... supposedly it was your Creator who designed and created man who in turn ruined everything. No man no systems ruined. Hence it's your Creator's fault.

 

[Spiderman]

I'm sure this was no accident either...God could heal these people and he refuses to lift a finger to help!

 

[siti]

You seem familiar with the Fermi paradox and Drake equation.

To be honest I didn't know that's what they were called - but it certainly stands to reason that even if intelligent civilization elsewhere in the universe (i.e. other than in our more or less immediate vicinity - of the milky way galaxy) had developed the technology to call out to us - by the time we receive the message they'll be extinct and likewise, by the time anybody who might be listening in the Andromeda galaxy receives our broadcasts, homo sapiens will long since have gone the way of the dodo. I don't know whether we will discover (or transplant) life on the Jovian moons or Mars or wherever we might - but I reckon in terms of intelligent life, although it is highly likely that we are alone in the universe, I think the tyranny of distance will mean that we are eternally estranged from any of our cosmic evolutionary cousins - even though we're all made of the same 13.8 billion year-old stuff. Its kinda weird and wonderful and sad and stupendous all at the same time - don't you think? To answer the OP - yes - just accidental - tragically accidental and yet awesome too!

 

[Deeje]

If you are talking about “management”, then assuming you that you are correct that God is real and he exists, then if the Earth was his creation, and he is like the CEO or president of the company, then any mismanagement made by the lowly humans, so the fault for the mismanagement lies ultimately with God.

Unless of course he is the owner of the company and appoints a CEO to take care of his assets and to keep his business operating at peak performance......and that manager turns out to be a complete disappointment and turns the owner's business into a disaster.
Then the owner has the right to fire him and kick him out of the premises.....

Then he can rebuild his business and put in a new manager.....one he knows and trusts to do the job properly.

 

[ArtieE]

Unless of course he is the owner of the company and appoints a CEO to take care of his assets and to keep his business operating at peak performance......and that manager turns out to be a complete disappointment and turns the owner's business into a disaster.

The owner of the company is supposedly omniscient and knew beforehand the results of his appointment.

 

[Deeje]

The owner of the company is supposedly omniscient and knew beforehand the results of his appointment.

Where does it say that? He does not control his intelligent creatures by force. He gives them free will but does not choose to foreknow everything they will do with their choices. He allows free will to be exercised and then he responds to the action. This is what is repeated countless times in the Bible. Men act.....God responds. He has never left his people without guidance, which means that they have no excuse to disobey him.

According to scripture satan was once a righteous angel who at some point chose to follow an unrighteous course. Judas too was chosen as a righteous one, but chose to betray his master for a price. God can choose to know whatever he wishes, but he does not presuppose what everyone will do. He allows all to choose their own course and then he judges them on their choice.