Just Accidental?

[Deeje]

It does not say eternal death but eternal punishment. One can not eternally punish something which no longer exists.

Eternal death is eternal punishment because it never ends. God has no desire or reason to punish people after they die.
Death itself is punishment enough and always was.

You need to read your bible as you were wrong about the verse above.

Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience who had no belief in an afterlife. I am not wrong about that verse.
I have been a Bible teacher for over 40 years.....you really want to debate scripture with me?

Yet this is contradicted by the above verse. Matthew 22:13

Let's read that passage in context.....

Matthew 22:1-14:
"Once more Jesus spoke to them with illustrations, saying: 2 “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a king who made a marriage feast for his son. 3 And he sent his slaves to call those invited to the marriage feast, but they were unwilling to come. 4 Again he sent other slaves, saying, ‘Tell those invited: “Look! I have prepared my dinner, my bulls and fattened animals are slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the marriage feast.”’ 5 But unconcerned they went off, one to his own field, another to his business; 6 but the rest, seizing his slaves, treated them insolently and killed them.
7 “The king grew wrathful and sent his armies and killed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his slaves, ‘The marriage feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore, go to the roads leading out of the city, and invite anyone you find to the marriage feast.’ 10 Accordingly, those slaves went out to the roads and gathered all they found, both wicked and good; and the room for the wedding ceremonies was filled with those dining.
11 “When the king came in to inspect the guests, he caught sight of a man not wearing a marriage garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Fellow, how did you get in here without a marriage garment?’ He was speechless. 13 Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him into the darkness outside. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.’
14 “For there are many invited, but few chosen.”

This is a parable, not a true life account. Those "thrown outside" the venue for the wedding were those who wanted to attend the marriage celebrations, but were not issued the correct attire by the King. This is not talking about life after death. It is talking about those who think they qualify for God's favor but do not have it.

Matthew 8:12

Again, in context....

Matthew 8:5-13:
"When he entered Ca·perʹna·um, an army officer came to him, pleading with him 6 and saying: “Sir, my servant is laid up in the house with paralysis, and he is suffering terribly.” 7 He said to him: “When I get there, I will cure him.” 8 The army officer replied: “Sir, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but just say the word and my servant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man under authority, having soldiers under me, and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard that, he was amazed and said to those following him: “I tell you the truth, with no one in Israel have I found so great a faith. 11 But I tell you that many from east and west will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of the heavens; 12 whereas the sons of the Kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.” 13 Then Jesus said to the army officer: “Go. Just as you have shown faith, so let it come to pass for you.” And the servant was healed in that hour."

The "sons of the Kingdom" were originally supposed to be the Jews, but due to their continued defection from true worship, they lost God's favor and were thrown outside into spiritual darkness, "gnashing their teeth" at God's son. Again...nothing to do with life after death.

Matthew. 5:22

"However, I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; and whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Ge·henʹna."

If you don't know the difference between hades and gehenna, then I might suggest you do some homework on that term.

Matthew 5:29

"If, now, your right eye is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. For it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be pitched into Ge·henʹna."

Again, please go and learn what "gehenna" is. It isn't "hell" and it has nothing to do with suffering after death.

2 Thess 1:9

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9:
"This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you."

Everlasting destruction means everlasting death. Like Matthew 10:28, which says....
"And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna."

Both body and soul are "destroyed" in gehenna.....not tortured.

In the end the Bible contradicts itself, nothing more.

LOL...in the end it is Christendom's interpretation of the Bible that contradicts its teachings. Those scriptures do not say what you think they are saying......I wonder what else you have wrong?

 

[sayak83]

I must say, you have a very convenient form of worship....did your god create this play with a script or is it kind of ad lib?

No. This is the dominant theology of ancient-modern-medieval Hinduism clearly and explicitly stated again and again in Upanisads (900-600 BCE), Gita (200 BCE), Samkhya-Yoga (200BCE-200 CE) , Vedanta (800 CE -present) and Bhakti (800 CE to present). Based on my reading a significant number of ancient tribal religions as well as Yoruba and Daoism also incorporate this panentheistic idea of God-Reality (Brahman, Dao and Ashe).

If your god allows you the freedom to worship him in any way you choose, you might want to think again about the God of the Bible.....I'm afraid he is nothing like the convenient god you follow. To dedicate one's life to God is not to follow a crowd whose main agenda is to eliminate him from existence. Marrying God and evolution is an unacceptable compromise, in much the same way as Roman Catholicism fused itself to pagan sun worship. What results fails to support either one.

Its the way we know with complete certainty that your God (or at least your view of God) is utterly wrong. God in Hinduism is the ideal sovereign, one who serves all without ego or expectation and works equally hard for the salvation of all, even those who oppose Him. Because the self-existent one lacks nothing and hence desires and expects nothing, and all that is, was or ever will be are simply aspects of Him that He manifests in limited ways due to His desire to create for the sake of creativity. He feels nothing other than bliss and love and even the anger that is manifested is a playful persona aimed at nothing other than furtherance of His creative processes through His own manifested selves.

And of course there is no Satan or sin, only beings who have become temporarily ignorant of their true nature become self-centered and do unwise things in the mistaken belief that they matter more than the entire world-system which, while appearing in a plethora of forms and shapes, is in fact connected in a singular whole indivisible with the transcendent reality of God like tree leaves to the tree trunk. The evolutionary tree of life is just another aspect of this identity of essence and the intrinsic continuity between all diverse forms and phenomena, a manifestation of it that is visible in the biological world.

You may have the wrong God Deeje. You should probably try to find the right one before rejecting science due to mistaken theology?

Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intellect and this egoism
This is My material manifestation, divided in eight parts.
Such is my inferior Manifestation,
But know it is different from
My Highest Nature, the Self, O Arjuna,
By which this universe is sustained.
All creatures have their birth in this Self,
My Highest Nature.
Understand this!
I am the origin and also the dissolution
Of this entire Universe.
Nothing Higher than Me exists, O Arjuna.
On Me, this Self, all these universes are strung
Like pearls on a thread.
I Am the liquidity in the waters,
I Am the radiance in the Moon and the Sun,
I Am the sacred Word,
The sound in the Air, the Humanity of Humans,
I Am the pure fragrance of the earth, and the brilliance of the fire
The Life, I Am, in all beings,
And the virtue of ascetics.
Know Me to be the seed of all creatures,
The intelligence of the intelligent;
The splendor of the splendid Am I.
............................................
Yet I am hidden from most,
By this creative illusion of Diversity
Difficult to penetrate.
...............................................
Men whose knowledge has wandered
Enamored to desires, resort to Gods,
And this or that religious rite,
Constrained by their material natures.
But whoever desires to honor with belief
Whatever worshiped form,
On him I bestow immovable faith.
And he, endowed with this faith,
Desires to propitiate that form,
And receives from it his desires
Because their fulfillment is decreed by Me.
But temporary is such fruits
Constrained by their limited understanding,
To the Gods the God worshipers go;
But those who Know Me come surely to Me.

Gita, Chapter 7 (or Hinduism 101).

 

[Deeje]

No. This is the dominant theology of ancient-modern-medieval Hinduism clearly and explicitly stated again and again in Upanisads (900-600 BCE), Gita (200 BCE), Samkhya-Yoga (200BCE-200 CE) , Vedanta (800 CE -present) and Bhakti (800 CE to present). Based on my reading a significant number of ancient tribal religions as well as Yoruba and Daoism also incorporate this panentheistic idea of God-Reality (Brahman, Dao and Ashe).

You want to pit my Holy Book against yours? Really?
I am sure the readers here will think that is hilarious.....especially the atheists. I have no desire to go there.

Its the way we know with complete certainty that your God (or at least your view of God) is utterly wrong.

Funny, we feel the same way about yours. We are just going to have to let your gods carry out their own personal battle with our God. Let's see who wins....shall we?

God in Hinduism is the ideal sovereign, one who serves all without ego or expectation and works equally hard for the salvation of all, even those who oppose Him. Because the self-existent one lacks nothing and hence desires and expects nothing, and all that is, was or ever will be are simply aspects of Him that He manifests in limited ways due to His desire to create for the sake of creativity. He feels nothing other than bliss and love and even the anger that is manifested is a playful persona aimed at nothing other than furtherance of His creative processes through His own manifested selves.

And of course there is no Satan or sin, only beings who have become temporarily ignorant of their true nature become self-centered and do unwise things in the mistaken belief that they matter more than the entire world-system which, while appearing in a plethora of forms and shapes, is in fact connected in a singular whole indivisible with the transcendent reality of God like tree leaves to the tree trunk. The evolutionary tree of life is just another aspect of this identity of essence and the intrinsic continuity between all diverse forms and phenomena, a manifestation of it that is visible in the biological world.

You are free to believe in whatever you wish and whatever deities you choose. I am not remotely interested in them.

You may have the wrong God Deeje. You should probably try to find the right one before rejecting science due to mistaken theology?

I have never rejected science....I only reject organic evolution.....surely you have heard me say this often enough?

There is only one true God and he will prove himself at the end of the day......we will all know for sure then, won't we?

Now getting back to the topic at hand.....even microscopic life is amazing....the attention to detail is proof of a meticulous designer. We cannot see this detail with the naked eye, but what a wonderful discovery with the invention of the microscope.

 

[Kirran]

I must say, you have a very convenient form of worship....did your god create this play with a script or is it kind of ad lib?

I don't get what you're talking about here. I haven't talked about worship.

"Non-evolutionist creationism?....what is that exactly?

Rejecting the scientific consensus on the origin of species in favour of a simplistic creation narrative.

When our High School kids do science exams, they are expected to give the "correct" answers about the process of organic evolution taught in their classrooms. You lose marks for writing the "wrong" answers. To us, evolution will always be the "wrong" answer, but to pass exams, you have to say things like...."science teaches that"...such and such a thing happened, even when you don't believe it.
To penalize students for not accepting science's interpretation of the evidence is morally repugnant. Science has never proven that evolution ever took place the way they say it did. Forcing their views on children is an indication of how sick the education system has become. Since when is it wrong to have an alternate view when there is no real definitive evidence for either one?

While you will likely disagree, I hope you can understand that from most people's perspective to reject evolution is like holding up the flat Earth theory.

Do you think people who reject the Earth being spherical should reflect that in exams etc?

Certainy there are problems with the education system, but I am not convinced this is one of them.

If your god allows you the freedom to worship him in any way you choose, you might want to think again about the God of the Bible.....I'm afraid he is nothing like the convenient god you follow. To dedicate one's life to God is not to follow a crowd whose main agenda is to eliminate him from existence. Marrying God and evolution is an unacceptable compromise, in much the same way as Roman Catholicism fused itself to pagan sun worship. What results fails to support either one.

Evolution is just a phenomenon, like the orbit of planets around the sun etc. My accepting evolution is neither here nor there in my relationship with God!

Surveys in the US show 8% of self-declared JWs accept evolution - this is the lowest of any religious group! But presumably that 8% will not enjoy eternal life.

 

[Kirran]

Its the way we know with complete certainty that your God (or at least your view of God) is utterly wrong. God in Hinduism is the ideal sovereign, one who serves all without ego or expectation and works equally hard for the salvation of all, even those who oppose Him. Because the self-existent one lacks nothing and hence desires and expects nothing, and all that is, was or ever will be are simply aspects of Him that He manifests in limited ways due to His desire to create for the sake of creativity. He feels nothing other than bliss and love and even the anger that is manifested is a playful persona aimed at nothing other than furtherance of His creative processes through His own manifested selves.

And of course there is no Satan or sin, only beings who have become temporarily ignorant of their true nature become self-centered and do unwise things in the mistaken belief that they matter more than the entire world-system which, while appearing in a plethora of forms and shapes, is in fact connected in a singular whole indivisible with the transcendent reality of God like tree leaves to the tree trunk. The evolutionary tree of life is just another aspect of this identity of essence and the intrinsic continuity between all diverse forms and phenomena, a manifestation of it that is visible in the biological world.

You've put this far more poetically than I ever could, so all I'd like to mention as a proviso is that of course all ideas, descriptions and experiences of God are still impermanent experienced stuff - ultimately the nature of reality and of God is beyond all such description! Even though God's Will and desire to lead us towards understanding may be experienced from our limited perspective, ultimately there's only God's Being.

One could dispense with the word God and use other terms if you wanted. Many do. But this is how it appears from my perspective.

 

[ArtieE]

You see HELP written in rocks on a deserted island beach, with absolutely no sign of anyone ever being there.

was it the random action of the waves, or do you suspect intelligent agency.. somehow

power of explanation

And why would this intelligent agency exist in the first place? Shall we use your "power of explanation" and deduce it was created by an intelligent agency?

 

[ArtieE]

Evolution is an explanation of how the mechanism for changes being possible, and being passed to successive generations for its survival and avoiding extinction.

And we evolved the ability to differentiate between right and wrong behavior (morality) where right and moral behavior like helping each other increases our chances of survival and wrong and immoral behavior is behavior that is detrimental to each other and decreases our chances of survival. To understand morality we must first understand how and why it evolved.

 

[metis]

And we evolved the ability to differentiate between right and wrong behavior (morality) where right and moral behavior like helping each other increases our chances of survival and wrong and immoral behavior is behavior that is detrimental to each other and decreases our chances of survival. To understand morality we must first understand how and why it evolved.

Yes, and probably much of this evolved before us in most animal species whereas there's pretty much an instinctive "pecking order", which typically involves certain but variable levels of altruism.

 

[ArtieE]

Obviously morals mean little to a lot of people these days, but they mean a lot to me because I see what belief in evolution has done in the world. Eliminating the Creator and his moral code from human consciousness, has not done anything to promote peace or to modify what science wants to do.

"Secular Societies Fare Better Than Religious Societies" https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...lar-societies-fare-better-religious-societies

 

[Guy Threepwood]

And why would this intelligent agency exist in the first place? Shall we use your "power of explanation" and deduce it was created by an intelligent agency?

Now you're getting it!

 

[sayak83]

You've put this far more poetically than I ever could, so all I'd like to mention as a proviso is that of course all ideas, descriptions and experiences of God are still impermanent experienced stuff - ultimately the nature of reality and of God is beyond all such description! Even though God's Will and desire to lead us towards understanding may be experienced from our limited perspective, ultimately there's only God's Being.

One could dispense with the word God and use other terms if you wanted. Many do. But this is how it appears from my perspective.

Yes, I agree. But something had to be said against the baseless charge that 21st century Hindus have made up a convenient theology to conform it to the sciences. This is not true especially for Hinduism and Buddhism even though the charge has some validity in Christianity.

 

[Kirran]

Yes, I agree. But something had to be said against the baseless charge that 21st century Hindus have made up a convenient theology to conform it to the sciences. This is not true especially for Hinduism and Buddhism even though the charge has some validity in Christianity.

Oh yes, certainly! *nods vigorously*

The theology I generally move within has been around as long as records of religion/spirituality/whatever go back. That is, to the Upanishads, as you say. You're in the same family, I guess - I'd put differences down towards your being more into jnana yoga, in no small part. Experience trumps doctrine, anyway.

I don't know where the 'Holy Book vs. Holy Book' thing came from. It didn't seem to relate to what you were saying.

 

[ArtieE]

Now you're getting it!

I do understand your point. Your God was indeed created by an intelligent agency. Us. Just like Thor and Zeus and Poseidon and the others.

 

[savagewind]

I do understand your point. Your God was indeed created by an intelligent agency. Us. Just like Thor and Zeus and Poseidon and the others.

Can you not see the irony? The universe and life just appeared without an intelligent agent, they believe, but they are saying it is silliness to assume an intelligent agent might have just appeared.

 

[sayak83]

Oh yes, certainly! *nods vigorously*

The theology I generally move within has been around as long as records of religion/spirituality/whatever go back. That is, to the Upanishads, as you say. You're in the same family, I guess - I'd put differences down towards your being more into jnana yoga, in no small part. Experience trumps doctrine, anyway.

I don't know where the 'Holy Book vs. Holy Book' thing came from. It didn't seem to relate to what you were saying.

Book vs Book comes from Deeje's (and Godobeyer in the other thread) idea that any theist who accepts evolution has compromised his/her faith in God by making an idol of the evolutionary sciences which, in their mind, is only compatible with God-denying materialism. Being not a Christian or a Jew, i can't comment on how their scripture should be read, but I can certainly present equally authoritative theistic texts from my traditions that show such assumptions of necessary incompatibility are not some inherent feature of well-established and well-developed understanding of God in many civilizations and cultures.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Can you not see the irony? The universe and life just appeared without an intelligent agent, they believe, but they are saying it is silliness to assume an intelligent agent might have just appeared.

That's where the multiverse theories shoot themselves in the foot. The universe is so well engineered it would require an infinite probability generator to create it (if we forbid ID). But this imaginary device must also be fitted with a safety mechanism, to prevent it ever creating anything anyone could call God.. oops

 

[Kirran]

Book vs Book comes from Deeje's (and Godobeyer in the other thread) idea that any theist who accepts evolution has compromised his/her faith in God by making an idol of the evolutionary sciences which, in their mind, is only compatible with God-denying materialism. Being not a Christian or a Jew, i can't comment on how their scripture should be read, but I can certainly present equally authoritative theistic texts from my traditions that show such assumptions of necessary incompatibility are not some inherent feature of well-established and well-developed understanding of God in many civilizations and cultures.

As one of those irritating universalist-types, I see no reason that the Bible should be off-limits to me, so I do have opinions on what that text is and how it's best read. Although I'll admit that I lack the familiarity with it that most people identifying as Christian or Jewish (or Rastafari) might have.

There is very little awareness of traditions outside of materialist-atheism and the Abrahamic traditions among people coming at things from Christian and Muslim perspectives in these arguments. In general, I have encountered people with some broader knowledge. But in general, anything outside of Judaism and its derivatives is brushed under the rug as paganism, polytheism, something like that. So nobody really knows that there's depth and breadth of thought in Indian traditions, Chinese traditions...

 

[ArtieE]

That's where the multiverse theories shoot themselves in the foot. The universe is so well engineered it would require an infinite probability generator to create it (if we forbid ID). But this imaginary device must also be fitted with a safety mechanism, to prevent it ever creating anything anyone could call God.. oops

Your god could be the infinite probability generator himself? He could just be spitting out an infinite amount of different universes one of which happens to be ours.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Your god could be the infinite probability generator himself? He could just be spitting out an infinite amount of different universes one of which happens to be ours.

Perhaps, but we only have evidence for this one, and as far as we can tell, we are the only means by which this universe can contemplate, appreciate it's own existence, the primary beneficiaries of it.

Another bizarre accident? perhaps, but I think there are far less improbable explanations for this than chance.

 

[Shad]

Many of the creators of atomic weapons were in fact Christian. The father of the H-bomb

Eternal death is eternal punishment because it never ends. God has no desire or reason to punish people after they die.
Death itself is punishment enough and always was.

You can not punish that which no longer exists. Death is a natural event thus is not a punishment itself. All you have is a reward, nothing more.

Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience who had no belief in an afterlife. I am not wrong about that verse.

Judaism had a belief in the afterlife so you do not even know your own religion's foundations. Judaism is just not wrapped up in the dogma of the afterlife as Christianity is as it is not a death religion (a focus on the afterlife rather than mortal life)

I have been a Bible teacher for over 40 years.....you really want to debate scripture with me?

Sure as you already made a mistake regarding Judaism. You being a Bible teacher does not mean anything to me. When I was a Christian all of the Bible teachers I met had no qualifications as they just read something or took some class outside of academia. This is the typical failing of Protestantism in which anyone can be a Bible expert merely by reading a few things.

This is a parable, not a true life account. Those "thrown outside" the venue for the wedding were those who wanted to attend the marriage celebrations, but were not issued the correct attire by the King. This is not talking about life after death. It is talking about those who think they qualify for God's favor but do not have it.

Parables are lessons. The lesson here is that if you disobey the King, God, you will be removed from the wedding, Kingdom of God.

The "sons of the Kingdom" were originally supposed to be the Jews, but due to their continued defection from true worship, they lost God's favor and were thrown outside into spiritual darkness, "gnashing their teeth" at God's son. Again...nothing to do with life after death.

This verse is about the afterlife hence the mention of dead prophets...

If you don't know the difference between hades and gehenna, then I might suggest you do some homework on that term.

One is a garbage dump and the other is a Greek idea assimilated by Hellenized Jews which merged into one.

Again, please go and learn what "gehenna" is. It isn't "hell" and it has nothing to do with suffering after death.

It's an analogue of hell and has been for centuries.

Everlasting destruction means everlasting death. Like Matthew 10:28, which says....

Which is a contradiction to verses regarding people going to hell rather than oblivion.

Both body and soul are "destroyed" in gehenna.....not tortured.

Which is a contradiction to verses regarding people going to hell rather than oblivion.

LOL...in the end it is Christendom's interpretation of the Bible that contradicts its teachings. Those scriptures do not say what you think they are saying......I wonder what else you have wrong?

Your hubris is amusing as this is not the interpretation of Christendom but your view point, or that of your denomination. You are projecting your view as it is the only true one based on nothing. Which is typical of Protestanst as so many are unqualified so need to invoke the authority of god to render their view immune to scrutiny