Just Accidental?

[ADigitalArtist]

I thought you were talking about "flaws". Since when is a "shared respitory/swallowing orifice" a flaw? The coughing reflex is a natural response to any foreign substance entering the wrong 'pipe'.

Veins in the eyes are exactly where the Creator designed them to be. In all of his evolutionary musings, Darwin had the most difficulty with the design and operation of the eyes in various species. How did so many creatures develop sight in such an amazing variety of eyes. Fish eyes, bird eyes, animal eyes, insect eyes...human eyes?

Unlike animals, humans are not programmed to get old or sick or to lose loved ones in death. When do you suppose evolution will catch up with that? When will we stop grieving when we have to bury someone we still want to share our lives with? When will we stop trying to defy age or to live forever? After all these millions of years, why do we have no 'program' for death?

Having a shared swallowing and breathing orifice and upper pipe causes thousands and thousands of choking events every year. It would have been easy to make breathing from an independent hole to swallowing, such as what snakes have, to prevent swallowing. Thus it's a fatal flaw.
So the veins in the eye are deliberately set where it creates a blind spot, where light focuses in the wrong place in the eye, where the eye structure is too long and causes myopia in really high frequencies from birth? The eye is fraught with functional problems caused by its anatomy. It makes sense in evolutiom, because it's not linear and not driving towards ideal forms. It makes no sense with a deity unless that deity is incompetent.

 

[lovesong]

Since when is a "shared respitory/swallowing orifice" a flaw? The coughing reflex is a natural response to any foreign substance entering the wrong 'pipe'.

See, we wouldn't need coughing if it weren't for that flaw. That's like saying, flooding rivers aren't bad because we have walls! Well, we wouldn't need those walls if it weren't for the flooding rivers. They're both just solutions to bad problems.

Unlike animals, humans are not programmed to get old or sick or to lose loved ones in death. When do you suppose evolution will catch up with that? When will we stop grieving when we have to bury someone we still want to share our lives with? When will we stop trying to defy age or to live forever? After all these millions of years, why do we have no 'program' for death?

Unlike animals? Most mammals grieve when they loose a family member. Why do you think that we are not "programmed" to get sick and die?

 

[Nietzsche]

I thought you were talking about "flaws". Since when is a "shared respitory/swallowing orifice" a flaw? The coughing reflex is a natural response to any foreign substance entering the wrong 'pipe'.

Veins in the eyes are exactly where the Creator designed them to be. In all of his evolutionary musings, Darwin had the most difficulty with the design and operation of the eyes in various species. How did so many creatures develop sight in such an amazing variety of eyes. Fish eyes, bird eyes, animal eyes, insect eyes...human eyes?

Unlike animals, humans are not programmed to get old or sick or to lose loved ones in death. When do you suppose evolution will catch up with that? When will we stop grieving when we have to bury someone we still want to share our lives with? When will we stop trying to defy age or to live forever? After all these millions of years, why do we have no 'program' for death?

All other apes
Elephants
Canines
Various birds
Whales
Dolphins

All those animals grieve. Elephants and apes have their own burial rituals. We're not unique in our sense of loss. As it turns out, we're not very unique at all.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So you think male birds sit around thinking about bustin' a move in front of Bae?

Not only that, but also make a nest and bring their fiance to inspect it. Perhaps ask for suggestions for improvement as well. Male birds are smart. Female birds are even smarter, they see through the game, but keep their options open.

 

[Deeje]

Having a shared swallowing and breathing orifice and upper pipe causes thousands and thousands of choking events every year. It would have been easy to make breathing from an independent hole to swallowing, such as what snakes have, to prevent swallowing. Thus it's a fatal flaw.

Imagine if we had no coughing reflex and we ended up with a bug in our windpipe that time we laughed out loud when Uncle Harry cracked a joke....what if we had no way of removing that bug? How many thousands of choking episodes would result from that I wonder? It's not a flaw by any means to my way of thinking.

So the veins in the eye are deliberately set where it creates a blind spot, where light focuses in the wrong place in the eye, where the eye structure is too long and causes myopia in really high frequencies from birth? The eye is fraught with functional problems caused by its anatomy. It makes sense in evolutiom, because it's not linear and not driving towards ideal forms. It makes no sense with a deity unless that deity is incompetent.

I love the way science purports to know so much, promoting theory as fact, when tomorrow it may discover something that makes everything it believed yesterday, invalid.

If science was brought face to face with a Creator tomorrow, how many would deny him or turn their back on him so as to hang onto their favored position?
How much of it is a pride issue? A peer pressure issue? Not wanting to be accountable to anyone?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I like what you write but you spoil it by harking back to a creator. But I think you cannot do otherwise. You are a Muslim. Is that correct? We have not interacted much.

 

[Deeje]

All other apes
Elephants
Canines
Various birds
Whales
Dolphins

All those animals grieve. Elephants and apes have their own burial rituals. We're not unique in our sense of loss. As it turns out, we're not very unique at all.

Out of all the creatures on this planet, (from which all living things have supposedly evolved,) if I were to make a list of those who accept death as a natural part of life, how would your list compare to mine? There are exceptions to every rule, as we know. But none of these creatures grieves the way humans do. Elephants and apes have no "burial rituals" like we do. It is more an interruption of their programmed family grouping that is expressed, not genuine grief the way humans experience it. All of those animals have "family" structure as part of their instinctive behavior. Mothers particularly have an amazing program to protect their young, sometimes from their offspring's own father. But these mothers will kill the young of other species to feed their own. Is that just a co-incidence or is that programming for survival?

All living things come from a Creator who has emotions like ours...or should I say that our emotions reflect his? When I see something beautiful, I am thankful to the Creator for giving me the senses to appreciate it.

No one will make anyone believe anything against their will.....and therein lies the crux of the whole issue. To give credit where credit is due. I like to express my appreciation for the many beautiful things there are in the world because the majority of ugly things come from the human species...especially the godless. ( I also count any violent humans as godless)

If science gave us as many 'good' things as it does 'deadly' ones......as many things that save lives rather than take them, wouldn't the world be better off? I think so.

Godless humanity is at the bottom of all our problems.

 

[Deeje]

I like what you write but you spoil it by harking back to a creator. But I think you cannot do otherwise. You are a Muslim. Is that correct? We have not interacted much.

Are you addressing me? I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[AndromedaRXJ]

Now you are talking about instinct. All living things are "programmed" for self-sufficiency and the perpetuation of their species. They do not consciously plan for this...it is "programmed" into them. The variety of species is reflected in the variety of their mating behaviors. Selecting a mate for the future of the species is what is programmed into every living thing. It isn't always about looks...chemistry also has a great deal to do with reproduction.

Sure. So what's your point?

When we have computer programs that we run on a regular basis, do we ever imagine that they just happened by accident?

Why would we expect that when we know for a fact that computer programs are made by us humans? Why expect something different than what is actually known? It's actually known that all computer programs are made by humans. It is NOT actually known that lifeforms are made by a deity. So no reason to expect it.

How much intelligence and training do programmers need in order to develop and produce these programs that are often responsible for the smooth workings of highly efficient corporations?

Read what I said on post #53, because what I would have to say here would simply be me repeating myself from what I said in the aforementioned post.

And the thing about us humans is, we don't truly create anything. All we really do is take what already exists and rearrange it in a different way. A computer is made out of matter that already existed prior to its assembly. A computer is just a rearrangement of already existing matter. And we humans need intelligence to do that because we need to abide by, and understand, physical laws that already existed. When we build a computer and its programs, we do it in accordance with laws. A universe that is birthing laws it self, doesn't need to abide by anything. Because the laws themselves are being birthed, and things naturally will manifest in accordance with those laws.

If a deity is omnipotent and is not subjected to physical laws, then he doesn't need intelligence to make anything. Because he doesn't need to adhere to a set of parameters of what is and isn't possible. With that, I say that intelligence isn't needed to create the universe because there are no existing laws to abide by initially.

Again, read post #53.

 

[savagewind]

the majority of ugly things come from the human species...especially the godless. ( I also count any violent humans as godless)

If science gave us as many 'good' things as it does 'deadly' ones......as many things that save lives rather than take them, wouldn't the world be better off? I think so.

Godless humanity is at the bottom of all our problems.

So? Man created these???????????????

Would the world's top designers win awards for the filial nematode worm too? Why are these little beauties never used as an example of the wonders of 'intelligent design'? Can it possibly be accidental that these little worms 'evolved' to be perfectly suited to making their home in the eyeballs of poor African children? Which came first, the worm or the parasitic infection of a child's eye? Are you suggesting it just materialised out of thin air?

Filariasis (or philariasis) is a parasitic disease caused by an infection with roundworms of the Filarioidea type.[1] These are spread by blood-feeding black flies and mosquitoes. This disease belongs to the group of diseases called helminthiases.

The adult worms, which usually stay in one tissue, release early larval forms known as microfilariae into the host's bloodstream. These circulating microfilariae can be taken up with a blood meal by the arthropod vector; in the vector, they develop into infective larvae that can be transmitted to a new host.

The most spectacular symptom of lymphatic filariasis is elephantiasis—edema with thickening of the skin and underlying tissues—which was the first disease discovered to be transmitted by mosquito bites.[2] Elephantiasis results when the parasites lodge in the lymphatic system.

Elephantiasis affects mainly the lower extremities, while the ears, mucous membranes, and amputation stumps are affected less frequently. However, different species of filarial worms tend to affect different parts of the body; Wuchereria bancrofti can affect the legs, arms, vulva, breasts, and scrotum(causing hydrocele formation), while Brugia timori rarely affects the genitals.[citation needed] Those who develop the chronic stages of elephantiasis are usually amicrofilaraemic, and often have adverse immunological reactions to the microfilariae, as well as the adult worms.[2]

The subcutaneous worms present with rashes, urticarial papules, and arthritis, as well as hyper- and hypopigmentation macules. Onchocerca volvulus manifests itself in the eyes, causing "river blindness" (onchocerciasis), one of the leading causes of blindness in the world.[citation needed] Serous cavity filariasis presents with symptoms similar to subcutaneous filariasis, in addition to abdominal pain, because these worms are also deep-tissue dwellers.

 

[AndromedaRXJ]

Imagine if we had no coughing reflex and we ended up with a bug in our windpipe that time we laughed out loud when Uncle Harry cracked a joke....what if we had no way of removing that bug? How many thousands of choking episodes would result from that I wonder? It's not a flaw by any means to my way of thinking.

Instead of a coughing reflex, it would have simply been better to have two separate non-intercepting orifices for eating and breathing. There would be zero risk of choking, as opposed to intercepting tubes for eating and breathing where there's a risk of choking, and a coughing reflex is slapped on to mitigate the rather poor design/adaptation. That's what she's trying to tell you.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Are you addressing me? I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Just as good, I suppose. There are hardly any JWs in India and I have not come across any.

 

[BSM1]

Not only that, but also make a nest and bring their fiance to inspect it. Perhaps ask for suggestions for improvement as well. Male birds are smart. Female birds are even smarter, they see through the game, but keep their options open.

Uh-huh...

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Imagine if we had no coughing reflex and we ended up with a bug in our windpipe that time we laughed out loud when Uncle Harry cracked a joke....what if we had no way of removing that bug? How many thousands of choking episodes would result from that I wonder? It's not a flaw by any means to my way of thinking.



I love the way science purports to know so much, promoting theory as fact, when tomorrow it may discover something that makes everything it believed yesterday, invalid.

If science was brought face to face with a Creator tomorrow, how many would deny him or turn their back on him so as to hang onto their favored position?
How much of it is a pride issue? A peer pressure issue? Not wanting to be accountable to anyone?

Not sure why you think coughing has anything to do with what you're talking about. It's done from the diaphragm and certainly does not need to have a linked swallow/breathing apparatus. If they weren't connected, we could still cough. But we wouldn't have food or water 'going down the wrong tube.' People wouldn't die ever year from the fact that it's stupid easy for us to choke to death on things we are trying to eat.

God of the gaps is not a particularly strong argument in the best of times. Much less when confronted with being wrong with it. If all you can say to conflict between knowledge and belief is 'your knowledge must be wrong because' then there won't be much to talk about.

 

[Deeje]

Sure. So what's your point?

The point is that you attribute 'fortunate accidents'...billions of them...to a mindless unintelligent process with no proof to back up a thing you say.
Not one book or article that I have ever read fails to contain the same language. This "could have" happened or "might have" happened...or "this leads us to believe that" something transpired in a certain way.....that is NOT the language of provable scientific fact...it is the language of supposition, educated guessing and assumption, without a single shred of solid evidence to prove anything. Couching this lack of facts in scientific jargon and then putting the peer pressure blanket over the top of the whole thing to me is just a vain attempt to make something that is fantasy into a reality, making people feel like fools if they don't accept it. The truth is science has no more solid proof for their theory than I have for my Creator.
Evolution is a belief, just as the existence of my Creator is. We have each chosen a belief system. You can kid yourself about that if you wish.

Why would we expect that when we know for a fact that computer programs are made by us humans? Why expect something different than what is actually known? It's actually known that humans make computer programs. It is NOT actually known that lifeforms are made by a deity. So no reason to expect it.

Nothing comes from nothing. We all know that everything is created from matter and we know that matter needs forces to drive its assembly to produce anything. Without the correct assembly, nothing works.
e.g. Considering the number of individual components that make up a computer need to be intelligently designed and assembled in the correct order to function, why is it that the correct order of assembly, by an intelligent director is not needed to produce a fully functioning human body? Do you know how many different components there are that all work together to sustain the life of a living being? That all came about by undirected chance did it?

And the thing about us humans is, we don't truly create anything. All we really do is take what already exists and rearrange it in a different way. A computer is made out of matter that already existed prior to its assembly. And we humans need intelligence because we need to abide by, and understand, physical laws that already existed. A universe that is birthing laws it self, doesn't need to abide by anything. Because the laws themselves are being birthed, and things naturally will manifest in accordance with those laws..

There is nothing new in the universe. No new laws are being birthed at all.....humans have yet to discover them is all. Being made in the image of our Creator, we are naturally creative and want to explore the natural world and the universe around us. We have limited skills to do that at present, but the very fact that we need to copy nature means that we direct our intelligence to mimic something we find very clever or useful in it. Take velcro e.g. This was invented because of the design of a gecko's feet.
Scientists are working on the secrets of the strength of a spider's web. If they could make an equivalent strength rope, it would catch a jumbo jet in mid flight and bring it to the ground.

Why do humans need intelligence to copy nature but no one needed intelligence to design the originals?

 

[jeager106]

Just as good, I suppose. There are hardly any JWs in India and I have not come across any.

41,866 Witnesses in India.
So sayeth................................................I fergit but it's there if'n ya googles it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I said I have not come across any. The moment I checked, they came out to be 0.0032918127393172%. Must be even lesser in New Delhi.

 

[Deeje]

Not sure why you think coughing has anything to do with what you're talking about. It's done from the diaphragm and certainly does not need to have a linked swallow/breathing apparatus. If they weren't connected, we could still cough. But we wouldn't have food or water 'going down the wrong tube.' People wouldn't die ever year from the fact that it's stupid easy for us to choke to death on things we are trying to eat.

So you would redesign the human body to what you think is the better way to do things? What if others think your design is flawed?
Is it also a design flaw in design to have a male penis as the means to eliminate liquid waste from the body but also to transmit the seed of life?
Doesn't it demonstrate efficiency to have more than one function to any body part? How amazing are all the other parts that function very efficiently? Oxygen transfer with the interaction of heart and lungs, wasted filtering, absorption of nutrients, elimination of toxins, restoration through sleep,

Like the human immune system, other things in our body do not work as efficiently as they were designed to. The Bible gives us a reason for that along with the promise that all function will be restored to the perfection they were originally designed to have. God not only gives us a reason for our existence, but a reason for the present state of world affairs, along with the assurance that things will eventually be restored to their original condition. Who does not love to see an old house or car restored to its original state? Old people can expect the same...because of the sorry state of this planet, God has also promised to restore paradise conditions to the earth. He also promises to hold its polluters to account.

God of the gaps is not a particularly strong argument in the best of times. Much less when confronted with being wrong with it. If all you can say to conflict between knowledge and belief is 'your knowledge must be wrong because' then there won't be much to talk about.[/QUOTE]

If science could fill the gaps, their theory could not be challenged. But the gaps are there and big enough to drive a Mac Truck through.
There are no gaps when one has belief in an all powerful Creator who is an intelligent designer. He has a purpose to our existence, but he doesn't need a single one of us to fulfill it.

Those "creationists" who stick to the more ridiculous aspects of their faith do not do God or themselves any favors by denying what science CAN prove. There is a very reasonable middle ground that accommodates true science along with the existence of an intelligent designer. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is just silly.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

So you would redesign the human body to what you think is the better way to do things? What if others think your design is flawed?
Is it also a design flaw in design to have a male penis as the means to eliminate liquid waste from the body but also to transmit the seed of life?
Doesn't it demonstrate efficiency to have more than one function to any body part? How amazing are all the other parts that function very efficiently? Oxygen transfer with the interaction of heart and lungs, wasted filtering, absorption of nutrients, elimination of toxins, restoration through sleep,

Like the human immune system, other things in our body do not work as efficiently as they were designed to. The Bible gives us a reason for that along with the promise that all function will be restored to the perfection they were originally designed to have. God not only gives us a reason for our existence, but a reason for the present state of world affairs, along with the assurance that things will eventually be restored to their original condition. Who does not love to see an old house or car restored to its original state? Old people can expect the same...because of the sorry state of this planet, God has also promised to restore paradise conditions to the earth. He also promises to hold its polluters to account.

"God of the gaps is not a particularly strong argument in the best of times. Much less when confronted with being wrong with it. If all you can say to conflict between knowledge and belief is 'your knowledge must be wrong because' then there won't be much to talk about."

If science could fill the gaps, their theory could not be challenged. But the gaps are there and big enough to drive a Mac Truck through.
There are no gaps when one has belief in an all powerful Creator who is an intelligent designer. He has a purpose to our existence, but he doesn't need a single one of us to fulfill it.

Those "creationists" who stick to the more ridiculous aspects of their faith do not do God or themselves any favors by denying what science CAN prove. There is a very reasonable middle ground that accommodates true science along with the existence of an intelligent designer. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is just silly.

You dont need to be a chef to know when the foid is rotten. And you dont need to be a suoer-intelligent agent to see when a system is working subpar. What efficiency are you gaining when merging two independently functioning apparatus causes fatal consequences? There's literally nothing gained by this joint link, and many reptiles didn't evolve this merged system and are doing fine in both respiration and swallowing. And they don't choke.

You can challenge anything. There's still a flat earth society for goodness sake. But there is a reason young earth creationists are not often scientists. Because they can't actually present their 'middle ground' in a way that is scientific. Pushing unfounded assumptions is not 'filling gaps.'

 

[lovesong]

Elephants and apes have no "burial rituals" like we do.

No, their rituals are not like our. Ours are not like theirs either.

not genuine grief the way humans experience it.

How do you know this? When an ape or elephant grieves the same parts of their brain light up as when we grieve.

All of those animals have "family" structure as part of their instinctive behavior.

So do we. There are some species that instinctively are loners, and some who are instinctively social. Apes and elephants are social animals, just like humans.

Mothers particularly have an amazing program to protect their young

And human mothers don't?

But these mothers will kill the young of other species to feed their own.

Again, and humans don't? Last time I checked we still eat meat, and still feed our children meat.