Sapiens
Polymathematician
You should check again, and this time think about what the words actually mean. Pigeon chess does not become you.
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Just Accidental?
- Thread starter Deeje
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If God is Creator (I believe it by default) then everything is God's and so, OK God is Stuff. Just one more name to add to my list of names for God.
STUFF
YOU say energy and matter are interchangeable. Does that mean that in your opinion Energy can not exist without matter?
Sapiens
Polymathematician
Modern physics says that energy and matter are interchangeable at a ratio of the square of the speed of light. While I am reasonably sure that there is not such thing as a god, if you maintain that: "Did whatever caused the universe have an originator? I have called it energy" yet you also maintain that this god figure has no origin since it was not "stuff," you are in an untenable position.
I did not say God has no origin because God is not stuff.
I say God has no origin because God is existence itself. God has always existed. Stuff has not always existed imo.
Shad
Veteran Member
Why are you quoting the Bible when you know nothing of what it says?
No I quoted the post you replied to. Besides the Bible does say the Sun was created later which contradicts what we know of planetary formation and plants using sunlight for photosynthesis. Read you Bible.
Which shows a mistake in the Bible as later it establishes the Sun was created after other events, created after this "light". More so it claims the Moon is a light but it isn't as it reflects light thus is no more a light than a mirror. Day and night are possible with only a planet rotating and a star (sun) so there is another error as the sun was made on the fourth day.
Simple language and contradictory idea compared to modern science. You are making leaps such as clouds were in the way without cause. You do so only to rationalize your belief, nothing more.
Energy must have already existed before this universe and all its stuff was formed.
Like I believe GOD must have existed before this universe and all its stuff was formed.
Like I believe GOD must have existed before this universe and all its stuff was formed.
Why?
You're projecting your own everyday perception and experiences onto a system where they don't apply. Real reality is bizarre and counter-intuitive. In physics the impossible happens all the time.
Might be
God? GOD? Is that YOU?
That's probably the trolls. I think they are real
I tried a physics class for a day. It sounded something like a foreign language class to me. You might be right. I have NO idea.
gnostic
The Lost One
Whether it be creationism or Intelligent Design, what you think you "saw", is merely you projecting your personal belief.
That's neither evidence, nor it is even logic. It is simply a projection of biased belief, and personal opinion.
You do know that there are many Jews and Christians here, at RF, who are both theist and accept evolution. So accept evolution has nothing to do with atheism (or with theism) for that matter. Accepting evolution is simply accepting biology, nothing more, nothing less.
You have presented no evidences for what you believe in, whether it be "design" or "creation". Each time you argue for creationism or design, you have resorted to one fallacious excuse after another.
But that's not your worst problem. It is lack of integrity, when you argue against evolution. Here, you use misinformation, as well as more fallacious tactics.
When others tried to explain to you where you have been mistaken or where you have erred, you dismiss out of hand, not with well-substantiated argument of your own, but with veiled insult behind your jokes or some unrelated images, as if that win your arguments. Some of these jokes of your are directed at atheists, ignoring the fact that some of the people who disagree with you, come from theists as well as atheists.
Now, I truly don't care what god or scripture you believe in, but if you are going to argue against evolution, at the very least you can do is to actual learn basic biology, and before you dismiss everyone's explanation on biology, or even on science in general (like your use for the word "evidence" bears no relation to science a theory all) to actually understand what they are saying.
Is it truly inconceivable to you that you are possibly wrong? Seriously how well do you understand biology, that you can tell everyone else who work in those fields are wrong? Are you a qualified and experienced biologist?
All I see from you is that you are not at all experienced in science in general (not just in biology), and that you are using the same tactics by creationists and ID adherents - misinformation on evolution and not using science to verify or validate creationism.
No one here are not telling you cannot believe in god, just stop lying to us, using misinformation on biology.
Neither were mine.
We are all a product of the chance encounter of two separate individuals who each had the components of life that were brought together the way all life is transmitted.....through a reproductive process that is exclusive to their species. It isn't that God created every individual...he created the process whereby all living things can procreate. There is much variety in the way they do so. He endowed all living things with this ability. Do you understand the difference. I have no belief in an immortal soul implanted by God in each child. There is no such thing as an immortal soul. That is Christendom's story...I don't subscribe to it because they borrowed that idea from outside the Bible.
We are material beings, purposely placed in a material home, with material needs that are all met without any creature having to do a lot of work. But, unlike the animal kinds, we just happen to also be endowed with a spiritual aspect to our nature. Only humans exhibit the need to worship and have done so all through history.
Well, this will obviously be one of the few times I will agree with you.
Even some who believe in this Creator God don't have to include that in their belief system.
Well the hardest thing for us to understand is that you think all this creation is accidental. Design is something that is observed everywhere in nature. It doesn't make me "think" design is there....I can actually see it with my own eyes. Look at these few examples.....
No design at all here is there?....they all just accidentally appear to be beautifully crafted.
How many beautiful flukes do you think science can claim before it looks completely ridiculous?
As far as I am aware, volcanoes act as a kind of valve on a pressure cooker. One wonders what would happen if pressure built up inside the earth and it had nowhere to go......boom...no planet?
Name me some beneficial things that happen for no purpose.....like the beauty in nature. Say all of nature was magnificent in all its colors but not a single creature ever developed sight? Or hearing...or smell? How do creatures who have never seen, know how to develop sight.....or those who have never heard to develop hearing.....when did the sense of smell just decide to drop in?
If you want to believe that, then be my guest....it makes not a lick of logical sense to me. It is my experience that design always requires a designer...and that goes for everything I use in my life.If it is purposeful, it is designed for that purpose. That is just logical.
Adaptation is not macro-evolution. I do not even see it remotely connected. Science has proof for adaptation, but no proof exists for one kind of creature morphing into another over millions of years. This has already been discussed in detail.
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Design is evidence of intentionality.
I think you are forgetting something vital here. The Genesis account tells us that the earth too was uninhabitable when it was created along with the rest of the universe. It was "formless and waste" but chosen by the Creator for habitation. It was not a fluke at all, but no doubt chosen because of its location and size, as well as its relative position to the sun and other heavenly bodies that shared an orbit around a common sun. It was prepared with all that was necessary to sustain life before living beings were brought into existence. The creation account is not illogical at all. But as long as you see the Creator as some mythical creature invented by men, you will never evaluate his activities objectively.
Now you know how I feel when someone makes comments about the Biblical creation account that is way off the mark too.
It is only "way off the mark" because of our beliefs. Your position is one I cannot accept, and vice versa. A deeper understanding of both will help to clear the air if we can just stop the sniping long enough to discuss the issues rationally.
I believe I stand in the middle where both views are balanced without compromise.
Please don't tell me you believe that the church systems of Christendom have even a vague notion of what the Bible actually teaches? "Saving face" is seen in many areas, not just theistic evolution....it is particularly seen in the areas of false religious beliefs and practices, politics and war...but that is for another thread.
Perhaps because you got sold a bill of goods and you bought them because they appealed to you... why else would anyone change their views? You swapped one set of false beliefs for a more convincing one. That is not an uncommon occurrence. People are searching for a comfortable and convenient truth....but when someone makes them feel uncomfortable about it...its unsettling, so tempers begin to flare. This is a very emotive topic but I don't really understand why? What does it matter what you or I personally believe? People will choose whatever is in their hearts...and that's the way it should be. No?
Metis, you are convinced that science is presenting you with "overwhelming evidence", but by their own admission, nothing in science is provable. "Confirmation", when it is provided by a biased source, is not the same as proof. A 'suggestion' or an educated guess is not a fact, and no one can make it one. You have to believe what they say because you have no choice if science is your preferred belief system. You believe because you want to believe. So do I.
You believe you have evidence for your position...I believe I have evidence for mine. Your evidence to me is underwhelming, and I guess mine is to you......it's about choices.
There are indeed two deities, (2 Cor 4:3, 4) but only one is the sovereign...the other is a 'wannabe'. He exists by God's permission because he is being given enough rope to hang himself and all who get sucked in by him and his propaganda. If you had really studied the Bible as well as you studied evolution, you might not have been so religiously undecided all these years. Limbo is an awful place to be, yet so many people live there wondering what to believe. The inner struggle is worse for some than others. I settled this question early in my life and have never wavered. To me, the chicken always came first, because it was designed to lay eggs.
If you recall the words of Jesus from your "Christian" days Metis, you will remember that he said...
“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it."
Its got nothing to do with people being "know-it-alls" or "schmucks"....but everything to do with the contents of a person's character. If "few" are on the road to life, why would you expect the majority to be stuck on a cramped and narrow track full of obstacles, when there is a super, multi-lane highway running in the opposite direction where there are no impediments or obstacles....you can believe whatever you like?
The devil was given control of "all the kingdoms of the world" by his own admission. (Luke 4:5, 6) He had the temerity to offer them to Jesus in exchange for one act of worship....an empty gesture if they were not his to give. He wants worship and this is what humans are giving him by denying the Creator. He has limits placed on how far he can go (as demonstrated in the case of Job) but we see how far he was permitted to take the faith of that man. Do you think he will do any less with all of us?
The Revelation says his time is short and that his efforts will intensify as the end approaches. I see his stamp all over everything, but the majority of people will not take any notice until it is too late. (Matthew 24:37-39)
History repeats because humans never learn.
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Sapiens
Polymathematician
Science would not say that these colors are flukes. Science would not say that these colors are accidental. Science would say that these colors are very carefully selected. Selected as if their wearers' lives depended upon them, as they in fact do. [/quote]Well the hardest thing for us to understand is that you think all this creation is accidental. Design is something that is observed everywhere in nature. It doesn't make me "think" design is there....I can actually see it with my own eyes. Look at these few examples.....
No design at all here is there?....they all just accidentally appear to be beautifully crafted.
How many beautiful flukes do you think science can claim before it looks completely ridiculous?
No, no, no! It is bad enough to have to correct your biological ignorance, don't make me start on your lack of geological knowledge too.As far as I am aware, volcanoes act as a kind of valve on a pressure cooker. One wonders what would happen if pressure built up inside the earth and it had nowhere to go......boom...no planet?
That is abject stupidity. When animals are blind (like cave dwellers) they are never brightly colored. Nothing is ever for no purpose, especially if it take energy or creates danger. That falsifies your entire argument. You are now arguing for my side of the street.
Sight developed because organism with Photo.reception - the perception of light by photo sensitive cells, when animals began to detect and respond to light; initially it would have been nondirectional, but nevertheless advantageous. Gradually this ability developed to allow the animal to perceive the direction of the light and to respond to it (directional photoreception) which was more advanatageous, then eventually the eye was able to actually see, first in low resolution and then later in high resolution, each small step delivering a repoductive advantage to its possessor. See: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/thoughtomics/animal-vision-evolved-700-million-years-ago/
Keep saying the over and over and don't forget to click your heals. You keep repeating this falsity and people keep correcting you and giving you references that, if would read them and could understand them would help you ... but you ignore them. There comes a time when one must start to recognize that ignorance is curable but stupidity is congenital.
Complexity if often an indicator of poor design by an incompetent designer. There are so many examples of poor design in the animal kingdom alone that where I to believe in a god I'd be embarrassed to claim that it designed these things.
Oh, so one must believe in the occult in order to see something objectively? That's right up there with cheer-leading for ignorance.
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Yep, they tried on the outfit and the girls liked it so they bought it and wore it till the next lot of girls didn't like it, so they changed outfits again? The fitting room in the "Natural Selection" store must be very busy.
OK Sapiens...which came first the vision or the colors? If the vision came first....how did creatures know that evolving eyes would be a good idea? What were the first creatures to throw away the white stick?
And if the colors were just chance mutations....how many chance mutations did it take to produce the colors and designs seen in the pics I posted? How far can you stretch your imagination until it sounds sillier than what we ID proponents suggest?
BTW, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question on mammals......all I got was a lecture on my ignorance concerning their other collective traits......so? How does a non-mammalian life form develop mammary glands and begin to excrete milk and then program their young to suckle? How does evolution explain that?
LOL....heaven forbid !
Please educate us on the value and purpose of volcanoes.
Though what this has to do with evolution, I'll never know...I'll have you know that I have a hard earned degree in abject stupidity.
It was just issued by a different university than the one you attended."When animals are blind they are never brightly colored"......
Just as well their girlfriends are blind too.....wonder if the attraction is the after-shave they wear?
Either that or they are just smooth talkers.
So which came first...eyesight? Hearing? Smell? Taste? Touch? What do the fossils say?
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Purpose is evidence of intent. Intelligence drives purpose.
It must be hard for the Creator to compete with some human egos......I guess that is why he allows them to feel superior, for a while.
He has been known to knock arrogant people off their pedestals though.
I like this Wiki definition....."The occult is "knowledge of the hidden". In common English usage, occult refers to "knowledge of the paranormal", as opposed to "knowledge of the measurable", usually referred to as science."
"Knowledge of the hidden"...is an interesting definition. As in when you have a blood test and they are searching for "occult" blood. Nothing spooky about that is there?
"Paranormal" is also an interesting term....it is simply....."denoting events or phenomena that are beyond the scope of normal scientific understanding."
There is nothing spooky about the "hidden" power of a "paranormal" being that science is yet to discover.....
There seems to be some kind of high horse you are riding....
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