Just Accidental?

[Deeje]

I like that you distinguish between 'big religion' and more genuine religion. I'd say the majority of any society is basically non-spiritual, whether they are religious or not.

That is very perceptive of you. I too believe that religious performance outstrips genuine spirituality in many people. A close and personal connection with God is not enjoyed by the majority who attend church, but I don't feel that this is entirely their fault. The church's leaders have led them into a performance based tradition that only requires them to turn up at church and go through the motions once a week. It is a pity that they seem to pick up their "Christianity" at the door and leave it there on the way out.

Personally, I came to accept evolution a while before reaching the age when it was taught in schools, but I was always interested in these things. I've never found it to in any way interfere with my faith in God, any more than heliocentrism. As I've grown up, I've been given the chance to study it more and have studied ut at a tertiary level now, although most of my understanding comes from my own research still.

Personal research is good. I research a lot too but mostly to confirm that what I hold to be true actually is. I have not been disappointed. Evolution is something I studied years ago in the hope of finding answers to the big questions of life.....it only led to more questions and no real answers. The Bible filled in all the blanks for me.

Your point about the USA's infantilisation of its populace is also interesting. I think that's the case here too, but not to the same extreme.

I know that we Australians are a pretty direct bunch. We call a spade a spade and do not really subscribe to the 'tiptoe around your feelings' kind of communication required by a lot of discussion sites. We are straight talkers who don't like to beat around the bush.....some Americans find me rude...I assure you, It isn't intentional.

I didn't know you were Australian! That's cool

You are from the Mother country !

Come to think of it.....its a lot of people's "mother" country.

What a shame that so many of her chickens all came "home" to roost!

My roots are in England...I still have rellies (relatives) over there.

 

[Kirran]

That is very perceptive of you. I too believe that religious performance outstrips genuine spirituality in many people. A close and personal connection with God is not enjoyed by the majority who attend church, but I don't feel that this is entirely their fault. The church's leaders have led them into a performance based tradition that only requires them to turn up at church and go through the motions once a week. It is a pity that they seem to pick up their "Christianity" at the door and leave it there on the way out.

This seems to be the case in most religions, really. All, I suspect. The same phenomenon, anyway - maybe a switch from 'nominal' to 'none' is actually good, makes it a little clearer. Maybe.

Personal research is good. I research a lot too but mostly to confirm that what I hold to be true actually is. I have not been disappointed. Evolution is something I studied years ago in the hope of finding answers to the big questions of life.....it only led to more questions and no real answers. The Bible filled in all the blanks for me.

This may be the problem - evolution doesn't answer any of the big questions of life as far as I'm concerned, so if you go in expecting it to then you're going to find it wanting! Were you Christian by background?

I know that we Australians are a pretty direct bunch. We call a spade a spade and do not really subscribe to the 'tiptoe around your feelings' kind of communication required by a lot of discussion sites. We are straight talkers who don't like to beat around the bush.....some Americans find me rude...I assure you, It isn't intentional.

Haha, yeah maybe Let alone speaking to some other even less direct cultures - Anglos generally tend to be a little blunter, I think.

You are from the Mother country !

Come to think of it.....its a lot of people's "mother" country.

What a shame that so many of her chickens all came "home" to roost!

My roots are in England...I still have rellies (relatives) over there.

Wales, specifically, in my case. My family's a bit scattered - some of my roots are also from chickens (or in the case of that emoticon, turkeys?) coming home to roost from Chile and Canada. I sort of have relatives in Australia! My dad's ex-wife lives there with her family.

 

[Deeje]

This seems to be the case in most religions, really. All, I suspect. The same phenomenon, anyway - maybe a switch from 'nominal' to 'none' is actually good, makes it a little clearer. Maybe.

If people were genuine in their Christian walk, it would carry over into everyday life. Most do not.....not all though. I have met some very sincere, good living people who hold beliefs different to my own and they have every right to hold whatever beliefs they wish. It is just a shame that the ones whom Jesus rejects on judgment day are not aware of their error until its too late. (Matthew 7:21-23) You see God never said he was going to save just "good" people...he said it is those who are 'good' AND 'obedient' to Christ's teachings....it's a two-fold requirement. Like "faith and works"....you can't have one without the other.

There are many "good" humanitarians in the world, but they are atheists.

The apostle Paul is an example of one who was zealous for God's worship but he was misguided. His sincerity was not questioned, but it led him in the wrong direction. He got a tap on the shoulder from Jesus himself...but God doesn't do that for just anyone. He "draws" people to the truth, but he will not chase them or drag them, kicking and screaming.
It has to be this

not this

There is one directive from God that we all have to follow recorded in Revelation 18:4-5. We have to "get out of Babylon the great". Most people have no idea what Babylon the great is....so a decision to leave is not always an obvious move to them. But since no one can come to Christ without an invitation from his Father, (John 6:44) those with an invitation know exactly what they have to do to remove themselves from this disgusting "city".

The "sheep and goats" are being separated as we speak. When Christ comes as judge, he will just pass sentence because everyone has had ample time to come to their own conclusions about God and his worship.

This may be the problem - evolution doesn't answer any of the big questions of life as far as I'm concerned, so if you go in expecting it to then you're going to find it wanting! Were you Christian by background?

I was raised Anglican as many Aussies are....or should I say were.....?
"Christianity" (Christendom) is dying here as we become more secularized and as more and more generations are exposed to the teaching of evolution. My problem was that if science couldn't tell me how life began, what was the point of harping on about how it changed?

The origin of life is the important thing for me and purposeful design requires an intelligent designer in my book. If an intelligent designer was at work, then he has a purpose for our existence. If evolution is true, then we have no real reason to be here except to perpetuate our species.
I am not loving the results of that perpetuation and what it will mean for the future of the human race and this planet if things keep going the way they are. We all know that this is NOT the life we were meant to live. Look at how many things interfere with 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' these days?
Who is truly happy anymore?

Haha, yeah maybe Let alone speaking to some other even less direct cultures - Anglos generally tend to be a little blunter, I think.

Some cultures are even more blunt without thinking that its rude. They simply say what is on their minds. Perhaps we need to toughen up a bit and develop a thicker hide?

Wales, specifically, in my case. My family's a bit scattered - some of my roots are also from chickens (or in the case of that emoticon, turkeys?) coming home to roost from Chile and Canada. I sort of have relatives in Australia! My dad's ex-wife lives there with her family.

Mine is English, Scottish, Welsh and a bit of Irish......no wonder I am so mixed up !

 

[Deeje]

Are you sure? We do not know about the thinking method of ducks as well as their preferences.

Good point.....such communication with ducks has obviously not evolved that far yet....maybe one day they will be able to verbalize their preferences.

Yeah how did a flower with 12 inch corolla and bird with 12 inch of beak developed? That requires some study of biology. Were you ever a biology student?

Was this a chicken or egg scenario? Did the flower develop a need for the bird or did the bird evolve a need for the beak so that he could milk the flower? They look made for each other don't they?

"The sword-billed hummingbird has the longest beak relative to its body size of any bird in the world. In fact, it is the only bird that sometimes has a bill longer than its body. The bill is so long, the hummingbird must groom itself with its feet. It also has to perch with its head tilted at an upward angle to be able to balance. But the upside is it can feed on flowers with particularly long corollas, reaching nectar that is unavailable to other hummingbird species."
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/stories/15-birds-with-unbelievable-beaks

How amazing are these flukes of nature......just designed themselves.....and decided on a really complimentary color scheme too....how clever.

 

[Jumi]

"Christianity" (Christendom) is dying here as we become more secularized and as more and more generations are exposed to the teaching of evolution. My problem was that if science couldn't tell me how life began, what was the point of harping on about how it changed?

The origin of life is the important thing for me and purposeful design requires an intelligent designer in my book. If an intelligent designer was at work, then he has a purpose for our existence. If evolution is true, then we have no real reason to be here except to perpetuate our species.

I'm not sure the recent drop in Christianity is only due people learning about evolution. There are multiple factors, as to why we see results like this:

This is the State Church membership in Finland.

Who is truly happy anymore?

Many people are, we just pay more attention to people being depressed etc and they are provided help and support for their depression more easily. (Though the economic situation in Europe may change that) When I was a kid, we had double the male suicide rates as we do today(for females it has remained fairly constant throughout the 1900s to the present day), back then people just thought that if you were depressed you were lazy. It's taken quite some time for people to accept that not everyone is the same, but it's been a boon to the suffering.

 

[Kirran]

If people were genuine in their Christian walk, it would carry over into everyday life. Most do not.....not all though. I have met some very sincere, good living people who hold beliefs different to my own and they have every right to hold whatever beliefs they wish. It is just a shame that the ones whom Jesus rejects on judgment day are not aware of their error until its too late. (Matthew 7:21-23) You see God never said he was going to save just "good" people...he said it is those who are 'good' AND 'obedient' to Christ's teachings....it's a two-fold requirement. Like "faith and works"....you can't have one without the other.

There are many "good" humanitarians in the world, but they are atheists.

The apostle Paul is an example of one who was zealous for God's worship but he was misguided. His sincerity was not questioned, but it led him in the wrong direction. He got a tap on the shoulder from Jesus himself...but God doesn't do that for just anyone. He "draws" people to the truth, but he will not chase them or drag them, kicking and screaming.
It has to be this

not this

There is one directive from God that we all have to follow recorded in Revelation 18:4-5. We have to "get out of Babylon the great". Most people have no idea what Babylon the great is....so a decision to leave is not always an obvious move to them. But since no one can come to Christ without an invitation from his Father, (John 6:44) those with an invitation know exactly what they have to do to remove themselves from this disgusting "city".

The "sheep and goats" are being separated as we speak. When Christ comes as judge, he will just pass sentence because everyone has had ample time to come to their own conclusions about God and his worship.

Similar to some Rastafari understandings! Interesting stuff. Well, I'll settle for being a good goat, I suppose.

I was raised Anglican as many Aussies are....or should I say were.....?
"Christianity" (Christendom) is dying here as we become more secularized and as more and more generations are exposed to the teaching of evolution. My problem was that if science couldn't tell me how life began, what was the point of harping on about how it changed?

The origin of life is the important thing for me and purposeful design requires an intelligent designer in my book. If an intelligent designer was at work, then he has a purpose for our existence. If evolution is true, then we have no real reason to be here except to perpetuate our species.
I am not loving the results of that perpetuation and what it will mean for the future of the human race and this planet if things keep going the way they are. We all know that this is NOT the life we were meant to live. Look at how many things interfere with 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' these days?
Who is truly happy anymore?

I think the Australian branch of the Anglican Communion is falling on the right side during the current realignment, so I hear. Yeah, the origin of life is a different question. We're getting our ideas better put together on that too, though. THis is just about emergence and development of biological forms - it speaks nothing of soul, that is a different matter. Evolution doesn't give you a reason at all - I have no intention of perpetuating my species. Evolution just is, it doesn't yield an ought.

True, most people are not really happy. But I don't think that's more the case than it was historically. Actually, I think we've made huge improvements.

If you were going to be born again in Australia, but you didn't know what sex, race and social class you'd belong to, would you rather be born in 1800, 1900 or 2000?

Some cultures are even more blunt without thinking that its rude. They simply say what is on their minds. Perhaps we need to toughen up a bit and develop a thicker hide?

Whatever works for people, I guess!

 

[Aupmanyav]

They look made for each other don't they?

How amazing are these flukes of nature......just designed themselves.....and decided on a really complimentary color scheme too....how clever.

Yeah, just like our intestinal flora. Made for each other.

Well, Evolution or God went into a Jack Pollock mode in the last two cases, did not care about complimentary colors.

 

[Deeje]

I'm not sure the recent drop in Christianity is only due people learning about evolution. There are multiple factors, as to why we see results like this:

This is the State Church membership in Finland.

This pretty much reflects most western nations. Because parents do not hold to any religious views, they do not pass spirituality onto their children. Those who still go to church, do not pass on 'spirituality' in many cases, but a tradition that is just empty and meaningless ritual.
There are no answers to the big questions, so it is natural to gravitate to the ones who have at least a reasonable sounding scenario....not to mention awesome computer generated graphics.

Spirituality has to be fostered and exercised, or like a muscle, it will weaken and eventually become unusable. This is what we are seeing I think. This situation was actually foretold in the Bible, so it isn't surprising that when people stop loving God and their neighbors, the wheels fall off humanity.

Who is truly happy anymore?

Many people are, we just pay more attention to people being depressed etc and they are provided help and support for their depression more easily. (Though the economic situation in Europe may change that) When I was a kid, we had double the male suicide rates as we do today(for females it has remained fairly constant throughout the 1900s to the present day), back then people just thought that if you were depressed you were lazy. It's taken quite some time for people to accept that not everyone is the same, but it's been a boon to the suffering.

Depression is epidemic in the world today and it doesn't seem to be based just on external problems, but brain chemistry itself is being affected, more than likely by environmental issues and the kinds of lifestyle being chosen or experienced without any choice. Even those who are wealthy and "have it all" are often miserable and addicted to substances that are sought to make them feel better.
Much of the western world is on medication of some kind.

Advertisers promote the idea that "things" make you happy, but when things don't produce anything close to the expectation, (which is often fleeting) they assume that more "things" or the "latest thing" will fill the void....but "things" never make people truly happy......people make people happy. It is our relationships that furnish feelings of deep satisfaction when they are healthy, and conversely, the depths of despair when they go wrong. Spirituality also has a great bearing on a person's sense of well-being....something very underappreciated in today's material world.
Material satisfaction is never lasting.

Spiritual satisfaction is everlasting.

 

[Deeje]

Similar to some Rastafari understandings! Interesting stuff. Well, I'll settle for being a good goat, I suppose.

It is a choice for all of us. As I said, God will not chase after us...he will offer us everlasting life on a restored planet with wickedness and wicked people eliminated, and Him as our sovereign ruler, and allow the choice to be our own. We will either find that idea appealing or we won't. No one is born a "sheep or a goat"....we choose our own path.

I think the Australian branch of the Anglican Communion is falling on the right side during the current realignment, so I hear.

Its amazing what you take for granted when you are raised in a particular church and virtually indoctrinated to believe that they are right and everyone else has it all wrong.
It wasn't until I started to question the things that made no sense, (like the trinity and hellfire ) or that were practiced against the teachings of Christ, (like participating is war when Christ taught us to love our enemies) that I started to do my own research. Finding out the reasons for the existence of the Anglican Church was a real eye opener. It then opened the way for research into all the other denominations and their origins. It was all based on the teachings of men who said "I think" the Bible means this or that. They ended up with teachings that contradicted the Bible, rather than things that were in harmony with it. The truth does not contradict itself. That is why I gravitated to JW's, because their teachings harmonized with what the whole Bible taught....about creation and the intelligence behind it. It tells us how life began. That was the biggest question there was for me because of what it meant in the big scheme of things. They didn't stubbornly cling to YEC, but sought reasonable middle ground without compromising scriptural integrity.

Yeah, the origin of life is a different question. We're getting our ideas better put together on that too, though. This is just about emergence and development of biological forms - it speaks nothing of soul, that is a different matter. Evolution doesn't give you a reason at all - I have no intention of perpetuating my species. Evolution just is, it doesn't yield an ought.

I am a "why" kinda person. I have to know "why" about everything.

If you have no intention of perpetuating your species, its just as well that all humanity does not share your reticence.

True, most people are not really happy. But I don't think that's more the case than it was historically. Actually, I think we've made huge improvements.

If you were going to be born again in Australia, but you didn't know what sex, race and social class you'd belong to, would you rather be born in 1800, 1900 or 2000?

I guess in times gone by the situation of hopelessness was magnified when things went wrong. There was no help, whereas today we have various government means of assistance in developed nations at least. In the early 1900's it was not unusual for children to be kicked out of home at 14 to get a job and take care of themselves because the next child was due and they couldn't feed the ones they had. How many 14 years olds raised in the west today could do that? Times have changed and circumstances change but human nature does not.

 

[Deeje]

Yeah, just like our intestinal flora. Made for each other.

And then some very clever scientist came up with ant-biotics, indiscriminately wiping out all bacteria, both good and bad. It was haled as the saviour of humanity and it saved many lives....but years later, after it had been prescribed for everything but a headache, it was realized that for all the good it did, there was a sinister backlash from the bacterial community, who appear to be more clever than the scientists. Adaptation is a clever design. Now we are urged to put the "good guys" back because they were actually beneficial for our health.

Well, Evolution or God went into a Jack Pollock mode in the last two cases, did not care about complimentary colors.

I beg to differ! I think the color schemes are fabulous! When I was a kid there was a saying..."blue and green should never be seen, without a color in between".
When I looked around it became apparent that the Creator loved those two colors together....where grass meets the sky or the grass meets the ocean....it's obviously his favorite color combo.

 

[Aupmanyav]

And then some very clever scientist came up with ant-biotics, indiscriminately wiping out all bacteria, both good and bad. It was haled as the saviour of humanity and it saved many lives....but years later, after it had been prescribed for everything but a headache, it was realized that for all the good it did, there was a sinister backlash from the bacterial community, who appear to be more clever than the scientists. Adaptation is a clever design. Now we are urged to put the "good guys" back because they were actually beneficial for our health.

I beg to differ! I think the color schemes are fabulous! When I was a kid there was a saying..."blue and green should never be seen, without a color in between".
When I looked around it became apparent that the Creator loved those two colors together....where grass meets the sky or the grass meets the ocean....it's obviously his favorite color combo.

All things are good as well as bad. Depends on the context. Antibiotics are good and necessary against diseases when taken correctly. Take for example sex also. Both, good and bad.

Yeah, nature seems to love blue and green. Also white of the snow and yellow of the sand.

 

[Deeje]

All things are good as well as bad. Depends on the context. Antibiotics are good and necessary against diseases when taken correctly. Take for example sex also. Both, good and bad.

Yes, sex is a good example because the world today is obsessed with it. Advertisers use it to sell products and there are no taboos about sex anymore. I see kids today who have their boyfriends and girlfriends sleep over and parents don't even quibble. Sex is a right now and STD's are rampant....just not really talked about much anymore.

Unmarried mothers are more common than married ones.....and the married ones don't seem to say married even after ridiculously expensive weddings. Fantasy-land is a virtual day trip apparently.

Humans never seem to realize what the problem is. Throwing God away, means throwing his laws away too. Common decency is not common at all any more...we need to have an international funeral for it.......and we can lament the death of common sense too.

Yeah, nature seems to love blue and green. Also white of the snow and yellow of the sand.

Ah yes...the everchanging sculpture of sand.....

Awesome, isn't it? But wasted if we had no vision or a brain to appreciate the beauty of it. There is just so much variety in nature to appreciate if we just stop for a moment and think about it. We are a unique species, because we alone can purposefully create art in imitation of our Maker. Our art is not limited to just the visual either, because we can create word pictures with poetry and literature. No other species can do what we can do. No one is going to tell me that this is accidental or a fluke.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No other species can do what we can do. No one is going to tell me that this is accidental or a fluke.

Right, no other species does these things. But if you have a fixed vision, it is no use telling you that there is no maker and it happened through a different process.

 

[McBell]

No one is going to tell me that this is accidental or a fluke.

Interesting that you cling so desperately to that particular strawman.

Much like the "something from nothing" crowd.

The whole "I do not agree with the nonsense I made up and assigned to the 'other side' " tactic is not an argument.
Hells bells, it isn't even a side.

 

[Deeje]

Right, no other species does these things. But if you have a fixed vision, it is no use telling you that there is no maker and it happened through a different process.

I have explored many different "processes", and a Creator with a purpose to our being and the vast universe that contains our tiny planet makes sense to me. I don't think he is finished with his purpose for creation just yet....I think he has only just begun. 'Ironing out the bugs' necessitated by the use (and abuse) of free will, has taken a long time (in earth years, but no time at all to an infinite Creator)....but once things are settled here, (as I believe they soon will be) what is to stop planets in the rest of the universe being made ready and populated eventually?

The intelligence and beauty behind the countless designs in nature cry out to me. Perhaps they do not cry out to you in the same way. That is OK.

But a purpose to our being is something unique and necessary to the reason and logic of many humans. (I am one of those.) Spirituality is expressed in many different ways and there is no doubting that we have a spiritual component to our nature...something animals lack. They worship God by their existence...we worship God with our conscious thoughts and emotions....it is a choice for us to be spiritual.....or not. And the way we express our spirituality is also up to individual choice. God does not force anyone to do anything against their will. Free will is his gift, but wicked humanity have turned it into a curse by imposing their will on others. I don't believe that this will continue for much longer, however.

 

[Deeje]

Interesting that you cling so desperately to that particular strawman.

Much like the "something from nothing" crowd.

The whole "I do not agree with the nonsense I made up and assigned to the 'other side' " tactic is not an argument.
Hells bells, it isn't even a side.

Not everyone thinks like you do....perhaps you should remember that. Even if you are in a majority....this issue has nothing to do with a popularity contest.

 

[McBell]

Not everyone thinks like you do....perhaps you should remember that. Even if you are in a majority....this issue has nothing to do with a popularity contest.

What does this have to do with the fact that you are merely beating up a strawman?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have explored many different "processes", and a Creator with a purpose to our being and the vast universe that contains our tiny planet makes sense to me.

Purpose of life, and the purpose is to sing praises of the one true God, 24x7x365. Right, Deeje?

 

[Deeje]

What does this have to do with the fact that you are merely beating up a strawman?

Just because you think it is a strawman doesn't mean it is.....perhaps your version is the strawman.

I guess we will all know soon enough.

 

[Deeje]

Purpose of life, and the purpose is to sing praises of the one true God, 24x7x365. Right, Deeje?

Well, no actually.....I don't think God requires us to worship him 24x7x365.

Its not that kind of worship.
It's about being "God-conscious" in our waking times, looking for those moments where we can think of him, and appreciate his works....but its hardly 24/7.

I think he would like to occupy a portion of our daily thoughts at those times when we see something in creation, or have something good happen and we feel the need to offer thanks to him.

You seem to have a strange idea about my God and how he is worshipped.