Just Accidental?

[Deeje]

The amazing design of insects......can these few examples possibly be the work of blind chance?

Its easy to talk about evolution when you don't see what you assume just accidentally created itself.

 

[ArtieE]

The amazing design of insects......can these few examples possibly be the work of blind chance? ... Its easy to talk about evolution when you don't see what you assume just accidentally created itself.

So what you are saying is that a god during billions of years sat down and designed all these and many others personally and then put them together one by one from atoms and molecules like a meccano set making sure he made at least two of everything so that they could reproduce by themselves?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If the defect of sin (imperfection) occurred in the genetics of our first parent, then the defect has to be inherited. (Romans 5:12 indicates that it was.) I don't need to tell you how inherited genetic disorders are passed on do I? Both Adam and his wife were defective due to their receiving the same sentence of death.....the defect applying equally to both.

As angels or whatever supposedly had sex with human women, wouldn't a fair percentage of various descendants down the road have no inherited sin?
Human Parent: SS (sin, sin)
Angel Parent: ss (no sin, no sin)
Offspring 1 and 2: Ss, Ss (kinda sinful for both)
Offspring 3, 4, 5, and 6 (offspring of 1 and 2 because Moses hasn't outlawed incest or at least the bible doesn't care yet): SS, Ss, Ss, ss. (One is definitely sinful, the middle two are "meh", and the last one cannot have sin due to recessive genes.)

I mean, if we're going to accept genetic transfer of sin, then the influx of heavenly DNA must alter the dilemma a bit, no?

The first rebel was not human and he not only influenced rebellion in the human race, but managed to lure a good many of his fellow spirit beings into rebellion as well.

In a heaven that supposedly is free from suffering, I might add.

That particular tree represented something that God withheld from his children for their own benefit.

God is quite clear He simply didn't want to share those types of powers. The rule wasn't "oh, and don't eat from this tree until I give the green light". It was "don't do it, period."

He implied that it was the actions of a controlling and uncaring Father who was keeping something from them that they had a right to have.

God Himself confirms this mere paragraphs later. Is He lying?

God then introduced an appropriate standard of modesty.

I've seen some pretty skimpy versions of the first clothes.

Along with the knowledge of evil, came the desire to carry it out. Within one generation, a murderer emerged, who killed his own brother in a premeditated act of jealousy.

Can't have murder if "murder" hadn't been labeled a sin yet.

All they can do is avail themselves of the merit of Christ's sacrifice and live in such a way that they do not lose it.

But the sacrifice only lasted 3 days.

and saying that a theory is the same as a fact is bold face lying

So is equating doctrine with fact.

If this viewpoint is the truth, that it's not literal, then for Christians, where is the value of Jesus' sacrifice? Why would it be needed?

Isn't the Way the valuable thing?

The reason for Jesus giving his life, is to undo the effects that sin and death have brought to humankind.

For three days.

The amazing design of insects......can these few examples possibly be the work of blind chance?

Ah, the beauty and wonder of God's holy work to creep us the hell out or even kill us....

 

[ArtieE]

Ah, the beauty and wonder of God's holy work to creep us the hell out or even kill us....

My favorite:

10 Most Disturbing Bugs (ugly bugs, monster bugs) - ODDEE

 

[ArtieE]

But the sacrifice only lasted 3 days.

I have never understood what it was he was supposed to have sacrificed... his life? But isn't he supposed to be still alive?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I can make "suggestions" till the cows come home....none of them need necessarily be true. So why is the "suggestion" of evolution so widely accepted when ID can be an equally reasonable scenario to explain the origin and profusion of life on this planet?

Let me re-phrase. We know where the bus comes from. We track down the evidence. We find out. We do the same thing with everything else. However making buses and making life ends up being very differnet. So the evidence points in a different direction.

The "evidence" is not the basis for evolution...it is the biased "interpretation" of the evidence that is presented as facts....and preaching it to the converted. People will believe whatever their hearts impel them to. We all have those choices for a reason.

The heart has no bearing on fact. I really wish my sister was alive. Doesn't make it so. My heart impels me to believe that she is alive. But she is not. Your heart impels you to believe a magic man created every single individual perfectly out of his own image for a grad plan and scheme so great and so loving that you can't even imagine it. However that doesn't make it so. I have no dog in the fight emotinoally for evolution vs anything else. I simply have a desire for what is true.

I disagree...you have to have faith that the interpretation you have been given is correct. Who says it is? Science cannot be sure that any of it is correct....they assume that it is. Is assumption and suggestion a replacement for facts? Since when is science fact based on the unprovable?

You can disagree "till the cows come home" but it dosen't make it any less true. Jump off a bridge. I won't becauser I assume gravity is correct. I have evidence behind it. But if you believe you will float or god will catch you isn't your belief just as valid as mine that a person would simply fall to their death? Which is more likely to be true?

Now, you see what you did there?

Condescension is used to presume that the recipients of the Biblical narrative had anything to do with the acts of creation described in Genesis. Just because they were presented in simple language, doesn't mean that the Creator is "simple" or that the creative process was a form of "magic". The Bible allows for an old earth and a very lengthy creative process. Intelligent design is seen everywhere. To my way of thinking, design is 'suggestive' of a designer. Purpose in that design needs a 'purposer'....someone with an intelligent reason for what he designed. Why are my preferred suggestions inferior to yours?

If I were to be condesending it would be to the people who get geology lessons from an ancient text written by people who didn't know why it rained.

How many of his children inherited his "slightly better than 20/20" vision? If no one did...then what is the point of the example? More suggestion perhaps? They "could have" is somehow more convincing that "no one else in my family has this trait"?

All three. All three of his children inheritied the gene for better eyesight.

 

[Deeje]

So what you are saying is that a god during billions of years sat down and designed all these and many others personally and then put them together one by one from atoms and molecules like a meccano set making sure he made at least two of everything so that they could reproduce by themselves?

If that is the small minded vision of the way God created, then what can I say? That is your skewed view, not necessarily what the Creator did at all. The way God can construct molecules and atoms is hardly the chore that humans find it to be.

Did males and females "evolve" separately? If they did, what did they do to reproduce before the function was fully equipped for the task? Please explain......

 

[Deeje]

As angels or whatever supposedly had sex with human women, wouldn't a fair percentage of various descendants down the road have no inherited sin?
Human Parent: SS (sin, sin)
Angel Parent: ss (no sin, no sin)
Offspring 1 and 2: Ss, Ss (kinda sinful for both)
Offspring 3, 4, 5, and 6 (offspring of 1 and 2 because Moses hasn't outlawed incest or at least the bible doesn't care yet): SS, Ss, Ss, ss. (One is definitely sinful, the middle two are "meh", and the last one cannot have sin due to recessive genes.)

I mean, if we're going to accept genetic transfer of sin, then the influx of heavenly DNA must alter the dilemma a bit, no?

Was that a serious question based on your vast knowledge of the Bible's account?

Genesis 7:21-24:
"So all living creatures that were moving on the earth perished—the flying creatures, the domestic animals, the wild animals, the swarming creatures, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 So He wiped every living thing from the surface of the earth, including man, animals, creeping animals, and the flying creatures of the sky. They were all wiped off the earth; only Noah and those with him in the ark survived. 24 And the waters continued overwhelming the earth for 150 days."

None of the Nephilim survived the flood....so I guess your theory is out of the window.

 

[ArtieE]

If that is the small minded vision of the way God created, then what can I say? That is your skewed view, not necessarily what the Creator did at all.

I wrote and I quote:

"So what you are saying is that a god during billions of years sat down and designed all these and many others personally and then put them together one by one from atoms and molecules like a meccano set making sure he made at least two of everything so that they could reproduce by themselves?"

If that is not what happened why don't you enlighten us as to exactly what's wrong with my scenario and explain exactly how creation took place?

 

[Deeje]

I wrote and I quote:

"So what you are saying is that a god during billions of years sat down and designed all these and many others personally and then put them together one by one from atoms and molecules like a meccano set making sure he made at least two of everything so that they could reproduce by themselves?"

If that is not what happened why don't you enlighten us as to exactly what's wrong with my scenario and explain exactly how creation took place?

LOL...was that diversionary tactics? You envision God working on something like...a mechano set?

I can only enlighten you as to "what" God created...."how" he did so is beyond the scope of present human knowledge and experience.
He may tell us one day when our brain capacity has broadened to a higher level. We haven't even reached kindergarten level yet.

Doesn't biological science teach that for the majority of creatures, "two of everything" needs to be present to reproduce? Perhaps my question was too difficult? Here it is again.......

"Did males and females "evolve" separately? If they did, what did they do to reproduce before the sexual function was fully equipped for the task? Please explain......"

 

[Shad]

If the defect of sin (imperfection) occurred in the genetics of our first parent, then the defect has to be inherited. (Romans 5:12 indicates that it was.) I don't need to tell you how inherited genetic disorders are passed on do I? Both Adam and his wife were defective due to their receiving the same sentence of death.....the defect applying equally to both. So if both parents have the defect, there is no way to avoid passing it on. It's not a difficult concept surely? Inheritance is a 50/50 thing.

Let me know when you found the sin gene rather than make assertions about it. All you have done is provide sophistry as an answer.

Adam and his wife paid for their own abuse of free will. We can blame them for the situation we find ourselves in, but their children did not die without hope.

If we can blame Adam and Eve for their acts we can also blame God by extension as his own act of free will creating the situation itself. God placed an object that he had no intention of actually sharing with his creations in direct proximity to them. A supposedly all knowing entity couldn't even grasp the idea that the result of the above could backfire in his face, which it did. God is a neglectful parent, nothing more.

If we remember that the Creator does not exist in a realm where time is counted in earth years, we can understand why it has taken so long for the rescue mission to be completed. The first rebel was not human and he not only influenced rebellion in the human race, but managed to lure a good many of his fellow spirit beings into rebellion as well. Spirits operate in universal time, which is not 24 hour days. (2 Peter 3:8) It is these beings who can do the most damage by abusing free will. It is dealt with in their time, not ours.

Giving his intelligent creatures free will was not a mistake....it was a calculated risk, in full awareness of the possible outcome.

Yet you blame the children rather than the one that created the situation. Again demonstrating his neglect as a parent along with shifting the blame to others.

God allowed for all contingencies and he will keep his original purpose on track as he brings it to completion. (Isaiah 55:11) What he accomplishes in the process is a tested population for his earthly Kingdom who have all proved that humans can serve the interests of the Creator without being influenced away from him by the cunning and deceptive speech of others.
That is what faith is....its the "irresistible force meeting the immovable object".

A test is irrelevant to an all knowing being.

It wasn't an apple, but that doesn't matter. It is what the fruit represented, not the fruit itself. That particular tree represented something that God withheld from his children for their own benefit.

If a parent wishes to withhold something they do not put it in direct proximity to those they wish it to withheld from.... Unless they are horrible parents.

It wasn't wisdom that resulted from the eating, but a "knowledge of good and evil".

If obedience is considered good and disobedience is considered evil then you have no basis to claim any punishment as the very concept is alien to Adam and Eve prior to the act. God's mistake not theirs

Withholding this knowledge was in effect, God saying to his children, I will decide what is good for you and keep evil away from you.

So then no blame can be put on Adam and Eve due to my above remark. This also places responsibility solely on God as God decided to place

A knowledge of evil was never going to benefit them in any way and God knew it.....the devil talked the whole issue into a situation where the withholding of that knowledge meant something else entirely. He implied that it was the actions of a controlling and uncaring Father who was keeping something from them that they had a right to have.
He targeted the 'newbie' and she fell for it. But her husband was not with her to modify what the devil had said, so knowing what that meant, Adam chose to eat for a very different reason. Maybe the thought of losing her was more than he could bear? So rather than live without her he chose to join her in death. Or maybe because death was not immediate, he felt that she might be right?
Whatever his reason...the rest is history. Both suffered the consequences of what they each chose to do. So do we.

No knowledge of good and evil, your point, renders such speculation moot.

Pseudohistory.

God evicted the pair from the garden and barred access to the tree of life to prevent such a situation.

This is hilarious. God barred access to prevent access in order to avoid a situation but is completely inept to bar access to the tree in Eden.

Humans would have seen that sword and the guardian angels probably until the flood of Noah's day completely changed the landscape. It served as a constant reminder that humans were suffering on cursed ground because of what Adam did. Obedience would have saved them from all of that.Object lessons are always the best teachers.

Obedience without a concept of right and wrong is useless. The lesson here is that God is inept, nothing more.

 

[Deeje]

My favorite:

10 Most Disturbing Bugs (ugly bugs, monster bugs) - ODDEE

Really? What is so awful about this guy?

I think the creatures in your link are amazing!

Look at them......then tell me what is so "disturbing"?

Even the caterpillars are spectacular!
They just obviously dressed themselves like this to impress who? It is the moths who mate.

A mantis that looks like an orchid...how terrifying!

All relatively harmless....even the camel spider. Perhaps some research into each one might reveal some very interesting facts about their appearance and characteristics......? Wonderfully designed.

 

[Deeje]

In a heaven that supposedly is free from suffering, I might add.

But not devoid of free will. All intelligent creatures who reflect the Creator's moral attributes have free will.

But the sacrifice only lasted 3 days.

Since Christ offered his human life, it was never taken back. The sacrifice was forever. Christ will never take on human life again.

So is equating doctrine with fact.

Doctrine is never stated as a fact...it is a belief...at least we know the difference between a fact and a belief....science hasn't quite made that observation yet.

Ah, the beauty and wonder of God's holy work to creep us the hell out or even kill us....

Everything has its place. Nothing on this earth functions as it was intended.....all will be rectified in due time...we just have to be there to see it happen. (Matthew 24:37-39)

 

[Deeje]

Let me know when you found the sin gene rather than make assertions about it. All you have done is provide sophistry as an answer.





If we can blame Adam and Eve for their acts we can also blame God by extension as his own act of free will creating the situation itself. God placed an object that he had no intention of actually sharing with his creations in direct proximity to them. A supposedly all knowing entity couldn't even grasp the idea that the result of the above could backfire in his face, which it did. God is a neglectful parent, nothing more.

If we remember that the Creator does not exist in a realm where time is counted in earth years, we can understand why it has taken so long for the rescue mission to be completed. The first rebel was not human and he not only influenced rebellion in the human race, but managed to lure a good many of his fellow spirit beings into rebellion as well. Spirits operate in universal time, which is not 24 hour days. (2 Peter 3:8) It is these beings who can do the most damage by abusing free will. It is dealt with in their time, not ours.



Yet you blame the children rather than the one that created the situation. Again demonstrating his neglect as a parent along with shifting the blame to others.




A test is irrelevant to an all knowing being.





If a parent wishes to withhold something they do not put it in direct proximity to those they wish it to withheld from.... Unless they are horrible parents.



If obedience is considered good and disobedience is considered evil then you have no basis to claim any punishment as the very concept is alien to Adam and Eve prior to the act. God's mistake not theirs



So then no blame can be put on Adam and Eve due to my above remark. This also places responsibility solely on God as God decided to place



No knowledge of good and evil, your point, renders such speculation moot.

Pseudohistory.






This is hilarious. God barred access to prevent access in order to avoid a situation but is completely inept to bar access to the tree in Eden.



Obedience without a concept of right and wrong is useless. The lesson here is that God is inept, nothing more.

Why waste my breath on such a distorted view of everything....you can believe whatever you like.....

 

[Shad]

Why waste my breath on such a distorted view of everything....you can believe whatever you like.....

You seem to have no issue wasting your breath on topics you have far less understanding of. I question the reasons behind this response. I speculate that it is a facade due to an inability to address my points.

 

[Deeje]

This is hilarious. God barred access to prevent access in order to avoid a situation but is completely inept to bar access to the tree in Eden.

Well, what's hilarious is that you don't know why. Hint: it has nothing to do with ineptitude. Don't strain yourself trying to imagine what possible reason God could have for doing what he did. It is obviously beyond your comprehension....so we will just leave it as a mystery.

Talk about ignorant.......

Obedience without a concept of right and wrong is useless. The lesson here is that God is inept, nothing more.

Again...if you think so...then it must be right, so why argue?

I don't know what makes you think they had no concept of right and wrong? They knew it was not only "wrong", but stupid to disobey a command that had the death penalty attached to it.

I question the reasons behind this response. I speculate that it is a facade due to an inability to address my points.

You flatter yourself.....no matter how well I address them, and I could go on for pages...you would still find the same old faults, not wanting to see past the end of your nose.....that's OK. You go on believing whatever it is that makes you feel good. I have no desire to communicate with you further.

 

[Deeje]

Let me re-phrase. We know where the bus comes from. We track down the evidence. We find out. We do the same thing with everything else. However making buses and making life ends up being very differnet. So the evidence points in a different direction.

You think you know where the bus comes from because you read the badge...it is from a reputable company....right? What if the badge is phony, put on by a rival bus company who sold you a faulty piece of machinery that they knew would explode after 50,000 miles on the clock?
The signage is a red herring designed to make you feel confident about the vehicle, but the 50,000 miles is just about up.... What will you do?

The heart has no bearing on fact. I really wish my sister was alive. Doesn't make it so. My heart impels me to believe that she is alive. But she is not.

I agree, your sister is not alive and neither is my father. They are "sleeping in death" according to the Bible, but they are assured of a resurrection...not to heaven, but back here to the earth where God put us in the first place. What a tragedy if they wake up and we are not there to welcome them back..... Death is a foreign concept to humankind because it was never meant to happen. We form strong family bonds that were never designed to be broken. If evolution is true, why have we never 'evolved' an acceptance of death?

Your heart impels you to believe a magic man created every single individual perfectly out of his own image for a grand plan and scheme so great and so loving that you can't even imagine it. However that doesn't make it so. I have no dog in the fight emotinoally for evolution vs anything else. I simply have a desire for what is true.

What is true is that God did NOT "create every single individual perfectly out of his own image for a grand plan and scheme so great and so loving that you can't even imagine it."

He created material creatures to inhabit a material earth in a material universe. He did not design them individually at all.....He created them with the ability to reproduce their kind, like everything else. He made humans in his own image, meaning that they were more intelligent than the animals and were appointed as their caretakers. He allows us to exercise our free will in everything. He has not created us to fail, but to acknowledge his existence and look for answers to life's most perplexing questions. Scripture tells us that when we search for him, (with the right attitude) he will allow us to find him.....if we don't, he will remain hidden until the judgment. He will not force a single person to do anything against their will. Those who have no need of him, will find that he has no need of them. They will get back from him, what they have given him....nothing.

Having been placed in a spacious garden with every fruit tree imaginable as their food supply, God intended that these humans should extend the boundaries of their garden home so that the whole earth would eventually become like the Garden of Eden. Hard, satisfying work is what they were designed for. This is what God meant when he said..."be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it". Only half of that mandate was carried out.....mankind has "filled the earth" but because of the disobedience of the first humans, this situation has not brought about the second part of the mandate.....to subdue the earth and bring about the paradise conditions that we all desire......its what we were all meant to have, and it was taken away from us by one act of disobedience. Sorting out this situation has taken many earth years, but the final part will come, when God has finished his object lesson, and in the process, testing humans out as to qualifications for citizenship in his kingdom. Paradise conditions will be restored to the earth and death and suffering will be no more. (Revelation 21:2-4) All will return to what God purposed in the beginning. (Isaiah 55:11)

Jump off a bridge. I won't because I assume gravity is correct. I have evidence behind it. But if you believe you will float or god will catch you isn't your belief just as valid as mine that a person would simply fall to their death? Which is more likely to be true?

You can hardly compare God's existence with gravity. I can test gravity any time I like and it will reveal itself to me every time with no ambiguity. God's existence is testable too if we haven't got blinkers on. Look around you....his creation testifies to his existence in every way imaginable.This much design can't be accidental.

If I were to be condesending it would be to the people who get geology lessons from an ancient text written by people who didn't know why it rained.

Who gets geology lessons from an ancient book? The Bible doesn't really touch on "geology" but it does allow for an old earth and also for the existence of ancient, now extinct creatures. JW's are not YEC supporters....we do however support Intelligent Design because we see design and programming in nature that need a purposer who created everything for a reason. His designs are worthy of imitation as scientists try to replicate the ingenious things they see in nature. It takes intelligence to copy something that had no designer? How does that work?

All three. All three of his children inheritied the gene for better eyesight.

I thought you said that no one in your family had this trait? I assumed that you meant his children as well. But lets examine this scenario for a moment. I included a link that described what 20/20 vision was. It is deemed to be adequate (being able to see objects clearly 20 feet away) and falls in the most common range for human beings. Many people, however, have better than 20/20 vision and probably always have. That doesn't alter the fact that, (according to the Vision Council of America,) approximately 75% of adults use some sort of vision correction. About 64% of them wear eyeglasses, and about 11% wear contact lenses, either exclusively, or with glasses. Over half of all women and about 42% of men wear glasses.

So if what you say is correct, then we should be seeing an improvement in the genetics of vision as time goes on.....but instead we see a decline....the majority of humans need vision correction. Is evolution going backwards?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

But the sacrifice only lasted 3 days.

You mean his death? That was the sacrifice, not his lying in the grave.

The end result for Jesus - being resurrected and getting his life back - is going to be same for almost everyone (John 5:28-29), be them dead for 3 mins., 3 days, 3 centuries, or 3 millennia. Since the "dead are aware of nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5)", the length of their time in the grave, till their resurrection, will seem like an instant.

That in no way negates that he died, or the value of his death, the death of a perfect human, who belonged to God.

 

[ArtieE]

LOL...was that diversionary tactics? You envision God working on something like...a mechano set?

Here is my scenario again: "So what you are saying is that a god during billions of years sat down and designed all these and many others personally and then put them together one by one from atoms and molecules like a meccano set making sure he made at least two of everything so that they could reproduce by themselves?"

Now, tell us what is wrong with this scenario and tell us what actually happened.

I can only enlighten you as to "what" God created...."how" he did so is beyond the scope of present human knowledge and experience.
He may tell us one day when our brain capacity has broadened to a higher level. We haven't even reached kindergarten level yet.

If you want us to believe your god created something you have to come up with a logical and rational explanation of how he did it for us to believe. Maybe you haven't reached kindergarten level and are happy with the overly simplistic "explanation" in Genesis but I'm not.

Doesn't biological science teach that for the majority of creatures, "two of everything" needs to be present to reproduce? Perhaps my question was too difficult? Here it is again.......

"Did males and females "evolve" separately? If they did, what did they do to reproduce before the sexual function was fully equipped for the task? Please explain......"

Remember... you even managed to ask if I thought water happened or evolved and asked me to "explain water". I'm not providing any more actual scientific explanations for a person who hasn't reached kindergarten level yet.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Was that a serious question based on your vast knowledge of the Bible's account?

Not really.

None of the Nephilim survived the flood....so I guess your theory is out of the window.

Still, this comment makes me think about this:

Numbers 13

33 And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who come of the Nephilim; and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.'

Numbers takes place AFTER the Flood. Someone in the bible is confused.

I can only enlighten you as to "what" God created...."how" he did so is beyond the scope of present human knowledge and experience.

Humans have a wide range of intelligence. What you claim is like arguing I am divine because I can open cabinet doors, as Bear, my chocolate Lab, cannot and assumes cabinets require humans to open even though there are plenty of dogs and cats, etc, who have figured out how to open cabinets and get the food inside.

"Did males and females "evolve" separately? If they did, what did they do to reproduce before the sexual function was fully equipped for the task? Please explain...

From here

Many protists reproduce sexually, as do the multicellular plants, animals, and fungi. In the eukaryotic fossil record, sexual reproduction first appeared by 1.2 billion years ago in the Proterozoic Eon.[60] All sexually reproducing eukaryotic organisms derive from a single-celled common ancestor.[1][53][61][56] There are a few species which have secondarily lost this feature, such as Bdelloidea and some parthenocarpic plants.

Look at them......then tell me what is so "disturbing"?

Yet you keep posting non-parasitic lifeforms. Come back to me when you feel something like this is a beautiful thing. (graphic ... don't eat while watching, LOL)

But not devoid of free will. All intelligent creatures who reflect the Creator's moral attributes have free will.

You have often claimed that the great thing about going to heaven is that it is free from suffering, but a HUGE rebellion shows that not to be the case at all.

Since Christ offered his human life, it was never taken back. The sacrifice was forever. Christ will never take on human life again.

No Second Coming (or is it the Third, as he technically returned 3 days later?)?

Doctrine is never stated as a fact...it is a belief...at least we know the difference between a fact and a belief....science hasn't quite made that observation yet.

You believe your doctrines as fact and you eschew any academic study of facts. You brag about ignorance, so you don't get to say you can differentiate fact versus belief.

Everything has its place. Nothing on this earth functions as it was intended.....all will be rectified in due time...we just have to be there to see it happen.

You assume the parasites aren't part of God's plan. Why?

You think you know where the bus comes from because you read the badge...it is from a reputable company....right? What if the badge is phony, put on by a rival bus company who sold you a faulty piece of machinery that they knew would explode after 50,000 miles on the clock?

You can still investigate and determine the papers are lying by finding the actual chain of manufacture.

I mean, go find a grease monkey nerd: they can tell you where an engine came from just by glancing at it.

Having been placed in a spacious garden with every fruit tree imaginable as their food supply, God intended that these humans should extend the boundaries of their garden home so that the whole earth would eventually become like the Garden of Eden.

I'm sorry, where is this in Genesis?

You mean his death? That was the sacrifice, not his lying in the grave.

Sacrifices tend to need to be permanent. His was not, so ....

That in no way negates that he died, or the value of his death, the death of a perfect human, who belonged to God.

He wasn't perfect. He sinned aplenty. I'll give you just one example:

Jesus said anyone who calls someone a "fool" will go to hell. He called people foolish, so ....