• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Justification…Is it works or faith alone?

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
the hebrew says "and he accounted in to him as righteousness" Hebrew grammar indicates that this means he (Abraham) accounted righteousness to YHVH after making His oath with Abraham.

I know you dont like Paul, so i've used James words about this....

James says: James 2:23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah,* and it was counted to him as righteousness,”+ and he came to be called Jehovah’s* friend

Paul likewise says that it was Jehovah who counted Abraham as righteous because he displayed faith.

I dont think we can declare ourselves righteous... surely it is God who determines who is righteous and who is not. So it makes more sense to me that the way James and Paul translate this verse is accurate.

 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
My opponent "1robin" is arguing that faith (without works) equates to salvation. This is the reason for the discussion.

ok, maybe its a good idea to define what faith is because faith motives obedient acts... its not just obedience alone because a person can do something if he is being forced to do it without having any faith.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
I know you dont like Paul, so i've used James words about this....

James says: James 2:23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah,* and it was counted to him as righteousness,”+ and he came to be called Jehovah’s* friend

Paul likewise says that it was Jehovah who counted Abraham as righteous because he displayed faith.

I dont think we can declare ourselves righteous... surely it is God who determines who is righteous and who is not. So it makes more sense to me that the way James and Paul translate this verse is accurate.
I have addressed this in earlier posts. James was quoting Paul's letters in his letter imho. This is why James' quote contains the phrase "and it was accounted" instead of the "and he accounted it".
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
What is your take on the verses where Jesus talks about the man who hears his word and acts on them? That's in the end of Luke chapter 6 and the end of Matthew chapter 7, but I'm sure you knew that. And just like James says... can faith without works save you? Obviously, the correct answer is "no". So sure salvation is a free gift from God, but if a person really believes in God and Jesus, they follow the commands God set forth. Right? Otherwise, it's not real "faith". So wouldn't that kind of make the definition of true belief, or "faith", in God as being something that requires action, or "works" to show that the belief is real?
Well if is not my old 100 questions per paragraph buddy. Let the chronological list begin.

1. I look at all verses through the same lens. The lens of historicity, logic, reason, exegesis, internal consistency, over all intent, etc......
2. Many verses (James especially so) seem to suggest on their surface that works or merit is necessary. I however view them in the over all narrative and compared with the intention and reason and find that only a deeper meaning works. Many verses about works are merely stating we should do them. I agree fully we should but state they do not suggest we must in order to be saved. For example Jesus says he forgave all sin. How do you interpret all sin other than all sin? If I am forgiven for every failure then how many successes are required exactly? Other verses like in James talk about what salvation produces not what it requires. The bible is meant to be read with common sense. Also the grace alone model is by far the most heavily substantiated.
3. Only true faith can save, true faith always has works. So intellectual faith which is only a state of intellectual agreement is devoid of power and it's works are only illusion and it can't save. Saving faith (born again kind) comes with spiritual power and works as a result. That faith will produce works but works are not necessary to gain that faith. Every single NT commentator has the exact same understanding of James, why don't you. Of course faith without works can save, however that faith does not occur without works. James is contrasting two kinds of faith.
New Living Translation
But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.
4. Of course anyone with real faith follows the commandments but not one of them does so perfectly. How much obedience is enough and how do you know?
5. Your right to suggest that is what the authors intended to say. That real faith comes with real works, not that real faith is gained by works nor that salvation is anything but an unmerited gift. However there are even exceptions to that. For example a death bed conversion, or a person who had no opportunity to know what works they should do or accomplish them.

My model works with every verse and every case. I don't need to get rid of Paul, the OT, add addendums for special cases or twist logic and reason until they bleed. Mine covers them all properly understood.

And, you know I can't let you go without at another question, so here it goes... let's say a person comes to the front in a Billy Graham crusade, tears in his eyes and crying out "I believe! I believe!" He does the little "sinners" prayer, but the next day, he's doesn't repent. And, he never repents of any sin that he does. Was he saved? Isn't he like the sprout in shallow soil? He never acts upon those words he said, so doesn't that "faith" wither away and die? But then suppose, he does act upon it. Not a lot, but he repents on little things. He starts reading the Bible and trying to apply the commands of God and Jesus? He stumbles and falls, but he keeps moving forward in trusting and doing the things of God. So both times he had the right words, "I believe" or "I put my faith in Jesus." But, only one time did he act on the words. So were both times real "faith"? Let me answer it for you, because I don't trust your answers. No, only by "works" is faith made real. And besides that, Paul misquotes and takes things out of context.
I know you can't let me go even after another question but lets try anyway.

The person who goes to Billy Graham is known to God to be either saved or not. I cannot determine that for anyone but myself, and never for a hypothetical person. I think your adding works to salvation in the form of repentance. Your defining repentance as something other than merely regretting and seeking forgiveness, and the word does have additional meanings. However what God means for salvation is the forgiveness part only. Most of our sins we can't even begin to figure out the cost of and even if we could we could not repay them all. Many sins do not even have a repayment available. If I take a life I can never ever repay that debt to anyone. God is the author and finisher of our faith. It is our debt to him and him alone that concerns salvation, and he provides 100% of the payment for that debt. Anything else is on top of salvation, just like tithing is something that should be done but not part of salvation. We would have to get into sanctification, and purification, etc.... to go further but this at least sets the tone. You, nor any other person will be there to speak at my judgment. Only one book is opened at the first judgment. That book has my name in it if I was ever born again. That is what determines heaven or hell. If my name is in it I go to another judgment that has to do with rewards, that book has all my deeds in it, including who I repaid for what sin.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I have addressed this in earlier posts. James was quoting Paul's letters in his letter imho. This is why James' quote contains the phrase "and it was accounted" instead of the "and he accounted it".

the verse seems to be saying that Abrahams 'faith' was counted to him as righteousness...

"...Abraham put faith in Jehovah AND IT was counted to him as righteousness.." So i think James is highlighting that it was the 'faith' which God saw as righteousness....not the obedient act itself. Is that how you see it?
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
So lets start with the word translated as "belief". This word has been ingrained into the minds of most Christians to represent mental assent belief, or something that has nothing to do with your actions. But the Greek word tells a completely different story! I will be quoting from parts of the website Jesus' words Only - Jesus' words as the sole inspired portion of the New Testament Scripture.

"When the English translations of the Greek New Testament were made in the 1526-1611 period, the “difficult Greek in which the New Testament is written...still held mysteries for” English scholars. (Nicolson: 224.) One of those mysteries was the Greek word pisteuo in John 3:16. In over 200 instances of pisteuo in the New Testament, not once did the King James Bible render it as obey. (See Strong’s Concor- dance.) However, scholars now realize obey was a common meaning of pisteuo in ancient Greek. Obey certainly was the meaning of pisteuo in John 3:36 (see page 448). Yet, this obedience salvation formula is identically repeated in John 3:16.

Besides John 3:36 helping, one can more easily accept pisteou means obeys in John 3:16 when one looks at Apostle John’s many quotes of Jesus about obedience. Jesus in John 8:51 says “whoever keeps on obeying (tereo) My Teaching

should never ever die.”1 In John 15:1-10, Jesus says a “branch in me” that does not “bear fruit” is “taken away,”

“cut off from the vine,” thrown “outside and burned.” 2 John likewise quoted Jesus saying in total accord:

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good [things], unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil [things], unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29 KJV)

John 3:16: Obeying Unto Christ Should Save?

We saw again that Apostle John was told that those who obey the commandments (plural) have the right to the tree of life. (Rev. 22:14.) John writes:

Happy [are] the ones doing His commandments, so that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter by the gates into the city. (Rev 22:14)(ALT)4

We also saw Apostle John writing Jesus’ words to the Sardisian Christians. They are dead due to having “incomplete works.” They can prevent the Spirit leaving by repenting and obeying. Through John’s pen, Jesus tells them:

And to the angel of the assembly in Sardis write: ‘These [things] says the One having the seven spirits of God and the seven stars [i.e., Jesus is speaking]: I know your works, that you have a name that you live, and you are dead. (2) ‘Become watching [fig., Wake up], and strengthen the rest which you were about to be throwing out, for I have not found your works having been completed before My God. (3) Therefore, be remembering how you have received, and be keeping [it [tereo, obey], and repent. Therefore, if you will not watch, I will come upon you like a thief, and you shall by no means know what hour I will come upon you.”
(Rev 3:1-3 ALT.)5

John another time relays Jesus as saying that luke-warm works by Christians at Laodicea will cause Jesus to spew them out of His mouth.

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So
then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth. (Rev 3:15-16 KJV.)

Finally, we saw among the many verses that tied eternal life (zoe ainon) to obedience and works was the following words of Jesus recorded by Apostle John:

He that loveth his life loseth it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. (26) If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will the Father honor. (John 12:25-26 ASV.)

These passages from the writings of John quoting Jesus are but echoes of what we find in Matthew, Luke and Mark. John is repeatedly emphasizing themes of obedience.

Hence, besides John 3:36, these passages from John make the proposed translation of John 3:16 as about obedience appear far more sensible than translation tradition would suggest. This change, incidentally, will unite what scholars call the Synoptic-Jesus with the Johannine Jesus. It turns out there are no separate portrayals of Jesus in the mind of Matthew-Mark-Luke versus the mind of John. Rather, the translators have improperly given Jesus two doctrines and two personalities by erroneously translating John 3:16 in a manner which suits cheap grace doctrine to leave uncorrected.

However, we shall see that the leading evangelical scholars who dared write on this question begrudgingly admit pisteuo means obey in John 3:16. It is only the translators who, for some inexplicable reason, continue to hesitate to make this now compellingly-obvious correction. "
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
"Does It Matter If John 3:16 Is About Obedience Not Belief?

There is a huge difference theologically between obey, comply, trust on one side and belief on the other.

Jesus discussed once this distinction. Jesus said it is incongruous to think you can say you believe in Him as Lord but feel free to disobey Him. Jesus said: “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I tell you?” (Luke 6:46.) Jesus therefore declares it is unfathomable that one thinks it is enough to believe in Him but not obey Him.

Another proof of a large chasm of difference between mere belief and obedience comes from the gospel accounts about demons.

Demons believe Jesus is Lord and Savior. (Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34. See also, James 2:19.) The demons, however, do not obey Jesus as Lord. They do not act in compliance with their acknowledgment of the fact of who Jesus is. They do not trust Him. They do not obey Him.

John 3:16: Obeying Unto Christ Should Save?

Remember that back in the Gospel accounts there were demons that acknowledged the deity of the Lord Jesus? When he appeared before them they said, ‘We know who you are, the Holy One of God.’ (cf, Mark 1:24, Luke 4:34.) They acknowledged what the Jews were too blind to see, the full deity of Jesus Christ, as well as his humanity. But, though demons acknowledged this, they never confessed it. They never trusted him. They did not commit themselves to him, they did not live by this truth.

Yet, we are told that John 3:16 proves that if you believe Jesus is Lord, Messiah, died for your sins, etc., then you shall have eternal life. If this were true, then the demons should be saved because they believe and know these things are true. (Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34.) James made a similar point in James 2:19. He says the demons believe the facts about God, but they are not saved thereby.

Hence, when we consider Jesus’ dismay that people think they can call Him Lord but that obedience is optional, we are justified questioning John 3:16 in standard translation because it licenses that doctrine for so many. "
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Reliable Dictionary Meanings Of Pisteuo In John 3:16 As Obey

The most exhaustive dictionary of ancient Greek is Liddell-Scott’s Lexicon. It is by far the most reliable.

There are six meanings offered in Liddell-Scott’s Lexicon of the Greek verb pisteuo at issue in John 3:16.7
One meaning in Liddell-Scott for the verb piste is comply. A synonym is obey. (See Footnote 7, page 423.) The NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament Words (Zondervan: 2000) has this likewise to say of pisteuo:

"Similarly, pisteuo means to trust something or someone; it can refer to and confirm legendary tales and mythical ideas. With reference to people, pisteuo means to obey; the pass[ive] Means to enjoy trust…"

This is likewise mentioned in the highly authoritative Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT) 6 (1968): 4-7, in an entry by Bultmann (1884-1976) — the eminent Lutheran scholar — in which he says the verb “pisteuo means” (among other things) “‘to trust’” and “also ‘to obey.’” (It is both enlightening and disturbing to watch how ‘cheap grace adherents’ cope with this dictionary entry despite the TDNT being one of the most authoritative and scholarly dictionary references within Protestantism.)
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
the verse seems to be saying that Abrahams 'faith' was counted to him as righteousness...

"...Abraham put faith in Jehovah AND IT was counted to him as righteousness.." So i think James is highlighting that it was the 'faith' which God saw as righteousness....not the obedient act itself. Is that how you see it?

I think James sums up his point very nicely:

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24

James' concept of faith was consistent with the Hebrew word for "trust". Not mental assent faith which Paul promotes.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Your defining repentance as something other than merely regretting and seeking forgiveness, and the word does have additional meanings. However what God means for salvation is the forgiveness part only.

What?? This is truly dangerous logic. The definition of repentance is clear throughout ALL of the scriptures. Turning away from evil (works) and doing good (works).

Ezekiel 18 lays out just how beautiful repentance is. Here is a small excerpt:

21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? Ezekiel 18: 21-23
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I think James sums up his point very nicely:

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24

James' concept of faith was consistent with the Hebrew word for "trust". Not mental assent faith which Paul promotes.

But James is really saying that works should be motivated by faith. You can have works without faith, but you cant have faith without works..

look at Vs 18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Can you show a person your faith without works? No. Not possible. But a person shows they have faith by their works. For example, Abraham was willing to offer up his son Isaac because he had faith that God could restore him to life. If Abraham did not have faith in Gods promises, he may not have been willing to offer his son Isaac.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
But James is really saying that works should be motivated by faith. You can have works without faith, but you cant have faith without works..

look at Vs 18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Can you show a person your faith without works? No. Not possible. But a person shows they have faith by their works. For example, Abraham was willing to offer up his son Isaac because he had faith that God could restore him to life. If Abraham did not have faith in Gods promises, he may not have been willing to offer his son Isaac.

James was making a simple counter argument to Paul's doctrines of faith (without works). James' view of faith was TRUST. Paul's view was mental belief in a concept. Paul makes it clear that works have nothing to do with righteousness and James is telling us here that it does.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
James was making a simple counter argument to Paul's doctrines of faith (without works). James' view of faith was TRUST. Paul's view was mental belief in a concept. Paul makes it clear that works have nothing to do with righteousness and James is telling us here that it does.

why would it be a counter argument?

Faith and works... works alone dont prove faith
Faith is proved by works.

If James was trying to counter Pauls letter about righteousness is due to faith, then he didnt mention it.
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
I humbly disagree. Paul absolutely taught that works and grace were mutually exclusive concepts which are contrary to each other. He does this in almost every letter he writes. Here is an example from Romans. Taken from Yeshua/Jesus and Judaism versus Paul and Christianity :

"Moreover the Law entered that (for this purpose) the offense (sin) might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:20

Again he draws the mutually exclusive picture of Law versus grace in the following.

"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law but under grace." Romans 6:14

Later on in Romans, Paul uses an analogy from the time of Elijah to make his grace-versus-works point.

But what does the divine response say to him (Elijah)? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant (of Israel) according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Romans 11:4-6

Paul's logic is so stood on its head, and his proof demonstrated with smoke and mirrors here that it's almost humorous. It would be if so many didn't actually believe this is the infallible word of God! The only thing that Paul derives from what God said to Elijah is that He had reserved a "remnant" for Himself. Nothing more! Never mind the fact that these seven thousand men had themselves remained true to God's Law and not bowed their knee to Baal! Sounds like works to me! But then, to keep the illusion going, Paul states that this new remnant of saved Israel is "according to the election of grace". This he bases on the assumption that he firmly established the concept of predestination and the election by grace earlier in the infamous passages of Romans 9. This detestable doctrine is itself based on numerous misquotes of Scripture as I have shown. But now Paul continues to build lie on top of lie with the flow of logic that if salvation is by grace, then it is no longer by works; otherwise grace is no longer grace! What utter nonsense! Where is it written that grace and Law (works) are mutually exclusive concepts... other than in Paul's writings? Paul had previously tried to establish this principle that the two concepts cannot go together with this slight-of-hand.

"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt." Romans 4:4

This slight-of-hand is accomplished by renaming elements in the equation much the way an abortionist would never call an unborn child "a baby". If Paul can get away with calling obedience to God "work", then he can get away with calling the benefits of that work "wages", and if we continue to follow him down this road we find out that wages are really a "debt"! Oh no! Who would want to be accused of being so presumptuous as to bill God for grace?!! Phew! Let's back up and start over. What Paul calls "work" is reallyobedience to God. God is the One with the bill! He made us and demands the payment of obedience. His grace and mercy are benefits (not wages) of doing business with Him. No one, no matter how obedient, can presumptuously demand payment of anything from God. To do so would involve disobedience to the Law concerning walking humbly with God! Anyone who is obedient and walks humbly with God can have all the faith in the world that God will provide the benefits He promised. This is where true faith exists! Now doesn't this sound so much more simple and right?Even a child can grasp this picture. But one has to spend many years in seminary before they can even pretend to comprehend Paul's convoluted mess.

But Paul did also say that he dies or crucifies his flesh daily (1 Corinthians 15:31) and other Pauline writings stating that one must die in flesh to be a true follower of Christ, thus he didn't actually endorse the idea, because dying in flesh means turning away from sin (thus, includes works). When Paul mentioned about justification by faith or grace, what he meant there is the type of faith that brings about transformation: the 'saving faith'; the type of faith that makes you turn away from your sinful nature or your old life and not just the mere act of accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Portion of this sermon gives quite good explanation about it:
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
Note: I'm not a christian btw. Well, I used to. Was even enrolled in a seminary school. Anyway... :p
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
I don't think so...It's a decision, yes, but it doesn't count as a 'work', as far as I can tell..
This can be ironic, but your disbelief to my statement does not make your assumption true Suppose you've been a drug addict for quite sometime and you want to quit, isn't your act of not using prohibited drugs a 'step' (aka an action)? Scientifically speaking it is.
 
Top