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JW's Jesus is Archangel Michael?
- Thread starter Yoshua
- Start date
Depends. If you believe Jesus was God in the flesh then no.
If you don't believe that then.........................
Who is Michael the Archangel in the Bible?
Just one source. There are many for people to explore and use their own judgement.
Let's start looking into the Word of God for answers. In the New Testament, Michael is easily identified as being Jesus when a few texts are compared. Let's do a comparison right now:
If you don't believe that then.........................
Who is Michael the Archangel in the Bible?
Just one source. There are many for people to explore and use their own judgement.
Let's start looking into the Word of God for answers. In the New Testament, Michael is easily identified as being Jesus when a few texts are compared. Let's do a comparison right now:
- But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
- For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
- For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
- Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
- Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Hi Jeager,
If that would be the interpretation then, it would be like this:
For the Lord (Jesus) himself shall descend from heaven with a (Jesus)shout, with the voice of the archangel (Jesus), and with the (Jesus) trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then, the Lord is Jesus; the shout is Jesus; voice of the archangel is Jesus and the trumpet of God is Jesus. So Jesus is the trumpet of God?
Thanks
McBell
Unbound
Why are you spamming the forum with this nonsense?
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Jesus is called 'The Word'.... so yes, he can also be the trumpet of God because a trumpet is used to sound an important message....Jesus had an important message to share when he was on earth and we continue to sound that message today.
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
For the Lord (Jesus) himself shall descend from heaven with a (Jesus)shout, with the voice of the archangel (Jesus), and with the (Jesus) trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Hi Pegg,
Nice meeting you. I think your understanding is gotta mixed up already and leading into the other direction. The preposition is "with" and not "is" to connote that Jesus can also be the trumpet of God. My logic here is the understanding of the context. The Lord is Jesus; the shout is Jesus; the voice of archangel is Jesus--if the understanding would be in this pattern, it will come out that Jesus is the trump of God. So your understanding will be dual, Jesus is the trump of God and Jesus having the trumpet of God. It does not make sense anymore.
It is clear that the word "with" is "en" in Greek which means 'a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively)Thayers Greek Lexicon. You may check your NWT interlinear with the terminology. It can't be Jesus is the trump of God or he can be the trump of God.
The 1Thess. 4:16 clearly stated "WITH the trump of God." This verse is about the Second coming of Christ.
Do you believe that 1 Thess. 4:16 is Jesus 2nd Coming?
Thanks
Jesus is not Michael the archangel. The Bible nowhere identifies Jesus as Michael (or any other angel, for that matter). Hebrews 1:5-8 draws a clear distinction between Jesus and the angels: “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’? Or again, ‘I will be His Father, and He will be my Son’? And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says, ‘Let all God’s angels worship Him.’ In speaking of the angels He says, ‘He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.’ But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The hierarchy of heavenly beings is made clear in this passage—angels worship Jesus who, as God, is alone worthy of worship. No angel is ever worshipped in Scripture; therefore, Jesus (worthy of worship) cannot be Michael or any other angel (not worthy of worship). The angels are called sons of God (Genesis 6:2-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), but Jesus is THE Son of God (Hebrews 1:8; Matthew 4:3-6).
Michael the archangel is perhaps the highest of all the angels. Michael is the only angel in the Bible who is designated “the archangel” (Jude verse 9). Michael the archangel, though, is only an angel. He is not God. The clear distinction in the power and authority of Michael and Jesus can be seen in comparing Matthew 4:10 where Jesus rebukes Satan, and Jude verse 9, where Michael the archangel “dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy” against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. Jesus is God incarnate (John 1:1, 14). Michael the archangel is a powerful angel, but still only an angel.
Michael the archangel is perhaps the highest of all the angels. Michael is the only angel in the Bible who is designated “the archangel” (Jude verse 9). Michael the archangel, though, is only an angel. He is not God. The clear distinction in the power and authority of Michael and Jesus can be seen in comparing Matthew 4:10 where Jesus rebukes Satan, and Jude verse 9, where Michael the archangel “dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy” against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. Jesus is God incarnate (John 1:1, 14). Michael the archangel is a powerful angel, but still only an angel.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
@Yoshua, please read the verse in context....
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...."But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." (ESV)
It is indeed about the second coming of our Lord Jesus. He has come to take his anointed ones home. He descends with "a cry of command" but not with his own voice if he is God. When Jesus was baptised, whose voice was heard confirming his approval of his son? Why would God use the voice of an archangel when calling his anointed ones from their graves?
What does the sound of the trumpet mean? It is the herald for what is about to take place....it is God's announcement through his son, that it is time for those who belong to Christ to "rise first". Who is it that Jesus takes to heaven?
It is those whom God chose to rule with him. They will be "kings and priests" (Rev 20:6) who will experience the "first resurrection" which does not take place until this time. No one went to heaven before Jesus and no one went to heaven but Jesus until the time of his return and his command to collect his anointed ones. This is what the scriptures say.
For JW's this is not a doctrine but a belief. Since the Bible only infers it, we hold that it seems to be true, but we will not stake our lives on it, nor would it matter in the big scheme of things if Jesus proved not to be Michael. Nothing changes in our belief system one way or the other. We have ascertained from scripture that various scriptures seem to point to it.
The one thing that we do know for sure...is that Jesus does not share equality of any sort with his God and Father.
There is nothing in the Bible that prevents Jesus being Michael in his pre-human existence. Names relate to roles in heaven, therefore Jesus can have various names according to the role he is playing at any given time. He is a capable of having more than one name.
The only doctrine that stands in the way of people accepting that Jesus is also Michael, is the trinity and it is not biblical.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...."But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." (ESV)
It is indeed about the second coming of our Lord Jesus. He has come to take his anointed ones home. He descends with "a cry of command" but not with his own voice if he is God. When Jesus was baptised, whose voice was heard confirming his approval of his son? Why would God use the voice of an archangel when calling his anointed ones from their graves?
What does the sound of the trumpet mean? It is the herald for what is about to take place....it is God's announcement through his son, that it is time for those who belong to Christ to "rise first". Who is it that Jesus takes to heaven?
It is those whom God chose to rule with him. They will be "kings and priests" (Rev 20:6) who will experience the "first resurrection" which does not take place until this time. No one went to heaven before Jesus and no one went to heaven but Jesus until the time of his return and his command to collect his anointed ones. This is what the scriptures say.
For JW's this is not a doctrine but a belief. Since the Bible only infers it, we hold that it seems to be true, but we will not stake our lives on it, nor would it matter in the big scheme of things if Jesus proved not to be Michael. Nothing changes in our belief system one way or the other. We have ascertained from scripture that various scriptures seem to point to it.
The one thing that we do know for sure...is that Jesus does not share equality of any sort with his God and Father.
There is nothing in the Bible that prevents Jesus being Michael in his pre-human existence. Names relate to roles in heaven, therefore Jesus can have various names according to the role he is playing at any given time. He is a capable of having more than one name.
The only doctrine that stands in the way of people accepting that Jesus is also Michael, is the trinity and it is not biblical.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Yes Yosua, i do believe the verse is about Christ in his role as the Messianic King.... the disciples were awaiting his return in kingly power and that is what Paul is referring to.
Why are you spam bashing this thread with this idiocy?
You're Christian? And Christians behave and approve of this child's play?
I tried debating you like one but you didn't want to so you blocked me. Whose the adult?Because he does not know how to debate like an adult.
There is nothing in the Bible that prevents Jesus from being Michael? Let's get this debate going with use Scripture and see what the Bible says right?
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"? (Hebrews 1:5)
Jesus is Gods Son correct?
"It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking." (Hebrews 2:5)
The writer of Hebrews returned to the subject of Jesus’ superiority over angels in chapter two, saying, “He [God] has NOT put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels” To whom will the world be in subjection? Scripture indicates that it would be Jesus, “the appointed heir of all things” (Hebrews 1:2). “All authority” has been given, not to any angel, but to Jesus (Matthew 28:18). All angels, authorities, and powers “have been made subject to Him” (1 Peter 3:22). “In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him” (Hebrews 2:8, NIV, emp. added). Jesus, therefore, is not Michael, the archangel, “for it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come” (Hebrews 2:5, RSV).
"...yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord." (2 Peter 2:11)
According to Jude: “Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’ ” Whereas Michael would not dare pronounce a railing judgment against the devil (cf. 2 Peter 2:11), Jesus once declared about Satan: “He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44). Jesus did not approach the subject of rebuking Satan with the same hesitation as godly angels like Michael. Jesus, as Lord of heaven and Earth (Matthew 28:18), boldly called the devil a murderer and liar, and even went so far as to declare that “there is no truth in him.” The Son of God obviously is not Michael the archangel.
So, despite scripture, the Jehovahs Witness will believe they are the same. The number one thing they can point to is this:
“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first” (emp. added). Supposedly, since Jesus is described as descending from heaven “with the voice of an archangel,” then He must be the archangel Michael. However, this verse does not teach that Jesus is an archangel, but that at His Second Coming He will be accompanied “with the voice of an archangel.” Just as He will be attended “with a shout” and “with the trumpet of God,” so will He be accompanied “with the voice of an archangel.” Question: If Jesus’ descension from heaven “with the voice of an archangel” makes Him (as Jehovah’s Witnesses claim) the archangel Michael, then does His descent “with the trumpet of God” not also make Him God? Jehovah’s Witnesses reject this latter conclusion, yet they accept the first. Such inconsistency is one proof of their erroneous teachings about Jesus.
Why even worry about JW theology? JW Jesus/Michael the archangel's life force was transported into Mary's womb(beam me down Scotty/Jehovah) JW Jesus/Michael/Whatever does not share in our humanity in any way and since he is not one of us, he can not redeem our fallen humanity.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
There is a difference between debating in a respectful manner and interspersing posts with childish ridicule and dishing the dirt in an effort to humiliate and discredit your opponent. Debates have rules...you don't know how to debate like an adult.
If you have to resort to the kinds of tactics you have used to date, then you are not much of a debater. So I do not have you on ignore...I just choose to avoid speaking to you because of your tactics and attitude. The Bible calls it 'casting your pearls before swine'. You will simply trample them under foot....so why would I bother? I have no desire to continue to address you.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
But I'd like to address these points, because the twisted way that conclusions are reached, have more to do with promoting Christendom's version of events than the events themselves. If you take the trinitarian glasses off, these scriptures mean something else entirely. Cutting and pasting someone else's twisted thinking might make you feel smug, but none of it stands up to any real scrutiny. It just demonstrates that you don't really know what your own Bible teaches.
God's son? Yes. God himself? NO. There is not one single direct statement from either God or his Christ that makes Jesus anything other than God's son. If you have such a statement, then please share it. Inference does not make doctrine.
In his pre-human existence, Jesus was not just "an angel". This is an "only begotten son", a truly unique being who is the first and only direct creation of the Father....the very image of his Creator. He is the agency through which all other things came into existence. (Col 1:15, 16; Prov 8:22, 30, 31) He is second only to the greatest personage in the universe. He is above all the angels in rank and in power and authority. He is the appointed Commander of all the angelic forces. Only two persons in all of scripture are pictured as commanding angelic forces...Michael and Jesus. This reinforces our belief that they are one and the same person, with different roles in different timeframes, under different names. The Bible backs up that belief.
So the first misconception is that Jesus is merely a angel. We do not believe that. We believe that Jesus is divine, but he never said he was Almighty God. He directed worship to his Father "alone" (Luke 4:8) He called Jehovah "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3) These scriptures are constantly ignored by our detractors.
Paul's words here pertain to the rulers in the kingdom. God did not choose angels to become mankind's rulers in his Kingdom...he chose fellow humans so that as "kings and priests" (Rev 20:6) they will have a unique understanding of the human condition. All the rulers in the kingdom will have lived life as a human...including its chief administrator, Jesus Christ.
When we examine this point, what do we see? How can an argument be made that because Jesus is in possession of God's trumpet, making an announcement concerning those who will be raised to life in heavenly rulership with him, that this makes him God? Is Jesus incapable of blowing God's trumpet and announcing his arrival to them symbolically speaking? The kingdom is God's arrangement...the kings and rulers in it are by God's appointment...the authority that Jesus has is given to him by his God and Father.
Jesus' words to his disciples before he returned to heaven reinforce that important point....
Matthew 28:18...."And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
If Jesus was God, why did "ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH" need to be "GIVEN" to someone, who by rights, already possessed all this authority?
Being blinded by the trinity makes the obvious sometime seem invisible.
If at Jesus' baptism, God's voice was heard approving of his son, why would God need to use an archangels voice to call his chosen ones to heaven? You really haven't thought this through, have you? You are too busy being right to see what is right in front of you.
God's son? Yes. God himself? NO. There is not one single direct statement from either God or his Christ that makes Jesus anything other than God's son. If you have such a statement, then please share it. Inference does not make doctrine.
In his pre-human existence, Jesus was not just "an angel". This is an "only begotten son", a truly unique being who is the first and only direct creation of the Father....the very image of his Creator. He is the agency through which all other things came into existence. (Col 1:15, 16; Prov 8:22, 30, 31) He is second only to the greatest personage in the universe. He is above all the angels in rank and in power and authority. He is the appointed Commander of all the angelic forces. Only two persons in all of scripture are pictured as commanding angelic forces...Michael and Jesus. This reinforces our belief that they are one and the same person, with different roles in different timeframes, under different names. The Bible backs up that belief.
So the first misconception is that Jesus is merely a angel. We do not believe that. We believe that Jesus is divine, but he never said he was Almighty God. He directed worship to his Father "alone" (Luke 4:8) He called Jehovah "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3) These scriptures are constantly ignored by our detractors.
Paul's words here pertain to the rulers in the kingdom. God did not choose angels to become mankind's rulers in his Kingdom...he chose fellow humans so that as "kings and priests" (Rev 20:6) they will have a unique understanding of the human condition. All the rulers in the kingdom will have lived life as a human...including its chief administrator, Jesus Christ.
When we examine this point, what do we see? How can an argument be made that because Jesus is in possession of God's trumpet, making an announcement concerning those who will be raised to life in heavenly rulership with him, that this makes him God? Is Jesus incapable of blowing God's trumpet and announcing his arrival to them symbolically speaking? The kingdom is God's arrangement...the kings and rulers in it are by God's appointment...the authority that Jesus has is given to him by his God and Father.
Jesus' words to his disciples before he returned to heaven reinforce that important point....
Matthew 28:18...."And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
If Jesus was God, why did "ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH" need to be "GIVEN" to someone, who by rights, already possessed all this authority?
Being blinded by the trinity makes the obvious sometime seem invisible.
If at Jesus' baptism, God's voice was heard approving of his son, why would God need to use an archangels voice to call his chosen ones to heaven? You really haven't thought this through, have you? You are too busy being right to see what is right in front of you.
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The trumpet is not the message. Do you have the ability to visualize? If yes, then please use it.