JW's Jesus is Archangel Michael?

[Wharton]

OMG! "You will become pregnant" means what? If you had bothered to see the footnote (see asterisk after the word "pregnant") you would see that it says "conceive in your womb". Since the revised NWT is about plain and simple language for today's readers, it simply says "become pregnant". The other expression is not used these days. So simplification is the key to understanding.

I'm just trying to figure out where JW Jesus is coming from as your literature doesn't jive with the NWT. Pregnant means to be carrying a baby. Transferred in your literature means Jesus could be a new human creation by Jehovah transferred to Mary's womb. Which one is authoritative? The Watchtower pamphlet or the NWT?

In either event, you still don't have a ransom sacrifice.

 

[JFish123]

The Watchtower Society New World Translation (NWT) mentions Michael five times as:
1) "one of the foremost princes" (Dan. 10:13);
2) "the prince of [Daniel’s] people" (Dan. 10:21);
3) "the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people" (Dan. 12:1);
4) "the archangel" who "had a difference with the devil and was disputing-about Moses’ body" but "did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms" (Jude 9); and
5) a participant in heavenly conflict when "Michael and his angels battled with the dragon" (Rev. 12:7).

Which one of these verses says that Michael is Jesus Christ? You would have to read Scripture PLUS a complicated Watchtower argument to reach that conclusion. Jesus is not some kind of "super angel." Rather than being merely "one of the foremost princes," Jesus Christ is "Lord of lords and King of kings" (Rev. 17:14, NWT) and is "far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come" (Ephesians 1:21, NWT). And, unlike "Michael who did not dare condemn the Devil with insulting words, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’" (Jude 9, Today’s English Version), Jesus Christ displayed His authority over the devil when He freely commanded him, "Go away, Satan!" (Matthew 4:10, NWT).

The Watchtower Society also points to another verse that does not use the name Michael but says that "the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet . . ." (1 Thessalonians 4:16, NWT). However, the expression "with an archangel’s voice" simply means that the archangel, like God’s trumpet, will herald the coming of the Lord, not that the Lord is an archangel. None of the verses they have attempts to use as proof-texts even comes close to stating that Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel. In fact, Scripture clearly teaches the opposite: namely, that the Son of God is superior to the angels. The ENTIRE first chapter of Hebrews is DEVOTED to this theme.

 

[JayJayDee]

1. Those teaching I hold are in the Bible plain as day

Well, they are the teachings that Christendom forced into scripture which, if they hadn't, you would never have come to believe them from reading the scriptures alone. They are not plain as day at all....they have been made to appear to be.

2. The same can be said from Matthew 7:13; 21-23 to you as well and the verse doesn't say Christians but those who follow Christ as the term wasn't in use then.

I agree, people who wear labels win no Brownie points with God. But these ones that Jesus reject acknowledge him as their "Lord" and tell him all the things they did 'in his name'. So they believe that they are good Christians. The claims they make as proof of their "Christianity" are not practised by JW's. We aren't prophets...we don't expel demons....and we perform no powerful works....so go figure.

3. Umm, the Roman Empire was controlled by one man (dictatorship), and the zealots in Jesus' day wanted to use violence to get what political gain they wanted. Today, we live in a democracy with checks and balances, and if we want to change something, we can vote on it, instead of using violence. So your argument is mute as it's a Bad analogy to try to make your point.

"Mute" means being unable to speak...so I think you mean "moot". In any case, there is not one instance of Christ's followers being involved with the political situation of the first century. When the disciples were arrested for their preaching, they did not resist arrest or try to get out of jail. Even when they could escape, they stayed. In one instance, this was enough for the jailer to accept Christianity.

The Jewish nation rejected Jesus because he was NOT the political figure that they expected him to be.

Whatever government is in power, there is no excuse for getting involved in the world of which Jesus told us to be "NO PART". If you vote a government in, you must accept responsibility for what they do in office if you helped to put them there. I don't want any part of that. What happens in this world is none of my business. You act as if God is not in control...I assure you, he is.

4. And so you will sit on your hands and let bad things happen because God will make things right in the end? God will make things right but until that happens it's our duty to help and protect those in need NOW.

Where is this instruction? I must have missed the memo. Do you know how many of my brothers are languishing in prisons under regimes where our preaching work is banned? Many more are incarcerated because they will not consent to military service. They are law-abiding citizens who would not lift a finger to harm another soul, yet they are treated like criminals. We were told to expect this. (John 15:18-21) We don't need to change the world but we do protest in writing to the authorities in the hope of seeing some fairness exercised. We won't hold our breath though. When God fixes things...we won't even remember the bad times. (Isa 65:17)

How many children died of abortion so far? 40 million?

And you think God doesn't know about every single one?

And yet you and the Watchtower still refuse to vote to elect godly officials who have the same biblical values you do, so they can protect the innocent? God works through His people.

Yes he does...but not politically. He uses his people to preach his message. He will deal with the nations and he does not require us to do anything about this world as if he is somehow incapable. Why do you sell him short?

Show me where it says in the Bible that we can be any part of satan's world. Whatever the devil has done will be undone...you don't believe that? You think God has let him go this far for no reason?

And nothing will change unless we let Him work through us in ALL areas of life, including politics to vote our conscience and godly values. And you think voting for someone who can vote to stop abortion, stop the slaughter, as well as help fund groups that can help feed the poor- you call that electing the devil?

Do you see any success by any government in any nation to bring about God's will on earth? The poor will always exist in this world and always have. Abortion will continue to go on regardless of what any government does. As people become more secular, they become less moral. Open your eyes.
Man cannot bring good government to this world.....That is what the kingdom is for. It is the only way for God's "will to be done on earth as it is in heaven"...that is why Jesus told us to pray for it. Have you said the Lord's Prayer without ever knowing what it meant? It's a shame that so many do.

 

[JayJayDee]

The Watchtower Society also points to another verse that does not use the name Michael but says that "the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet . . ." (1 Thessalonians 4:16, NWT). However, the expression "with an archangel’s voice" simply means that the archangel, like God’s trumpet, will herald the coming of the Lord, not that the Lord is an archangel.

Which translation are you using?

1 Thessalonians 4:16......"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (ESV)

1 Thessalonians 4:16...."because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (Mounce Interlinear)

1 Thessalonians 4:16...."For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (NASB)

1 Thessalonians 4:16...."For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (NKJV)

Seems pretty straight forward to me. The Lord has an Archangel's voice. Who but an Archangel uses an Archangel's voice? You neglected to answer why God would use his own voice when approving of his son's baptism, but not when calling his anointed to heaven? Care to answer that one?

None of the verses they have attempts to use as proof-texts even comes close to stating that Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel. In fact, Scripture clearly teaches the opposite: namely, that the Son of God is superior to the angels. The ENTIRE first chapter of Hebrews is DEVOTED to this theme.

I have already mentioned that it isn't doctrine with us...it is a belief, based on what the rest of the scriptures say.
It won't matter whether Jesus is Michael or not, because it changes nothing for us.....it only matters to you because it would prove that Jesus is not God. We don't need this belief to prove that Jesus is not God...the rest of the Bible does so.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you are not as well versed in the scriptures as you make out. You are simply cutting and pasting what other people have said without really checking to see if what you believe is true.

How many members are there in your church? With whom do you worship? Who are your teachers?

 

[Yoshua]

Yes Yosua, i do believe the verse is about Christ in his role as the Messianic King.... the disciples were awaiting his return in kingly power and that is what Paul is referring to.

For better understanding and consistency, we may check if truly Archangel Michael is Jesus Christ on this verses.
Matt.25:31-32
31. "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32. "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

31. "But when the Son of Man (Jesus) comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
The term "all the angels" refer to whom?

Thanks

 

[Pegg]

For better understanding and consistency, we may check if truly Archangel Michael is Jesus Christ on this verses.
Matt.25:31-32
31. "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32. "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

31. "But when the Son of Man (Jesus) comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
The term "all the angels" refer to whom?

Thanks

I imagine it refers to all the spirits in heaven

 

[Yoshua]

@Yoshua, please read the verse in context....

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...."But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." (ESV)

It is indeed about the second coming of our Lord Jesus. He has come to take his anointed ones home. He descends with "a cry of command" but not with his own voice if he is God. When Jesus was baptised, whose voice was heard confirming his approval of his son? Why would God use the voice of an archangel when calling his anointed ones from their graves?

The voice of the Father was heard during baptism of Jesus. Why? do you think that it is the voice of archangel Michael?
Matt. 3:16-17
16. And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him,
17. and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

What does the sound of the trumpet mean? It is the herald for what is about to take place....it is God's announcement through his son, that it is time for those who belong to Christ to "rise first". Who is it that Jesus takes to heaven?
It is those whom God chose to rule with him. They will be "kings and priests" (Rev 20:6) who will experience the "first resurrection" which does not take place until this time. No one went to heaven before Jesus and no one went to heaven but Jesus until the time of his return and his command to collect his anointed ones. This is what the scriptures say.

For JW's this is not a doctrine but a belief. Since the Bible only infers it, we hold that it seems to be true, but we will not stake our lives on it, nor would it matter in the big scheme of things if Jesus proved not to be Michael. Nothing changes in our belief system one way or the other. We have ascertained from scripture that various scriptures seem to point to it.

The one thing that we do know for sure...is that Jesus does not share equality of any sort with his God and Father.

There is nothing in the Bible that prevents Jesus being Michael in his pre-human existence. Names relate to roles in heaven, therefore Jesus can have various names according to the role he is playing at any given time. He is a capable of having more than one name.

The only doctrine that stands in the way of people accepting that Jesus is also Michael, is the trinity and it is not biblical.

In the 2nd coming of Christ, did the Archangel Michael bring with him his angels?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

I imagine it refers to all the spirits in heaven

If it is all the spirits in heaven, including Archangel Michael, the chief of all angels?

 

[james2ko]

Which translation are you using?

1 Thessalonians 4:16......"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (ESV)

1 Thessalonians 4:16...."because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (Mounce Interlinear)

1 Thessalonians 4:16...."For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (NASB)

1 Thessalonians 4:16...."For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (NKJV)

Seems pretty straight forward to me. The Lord has an Archangel's voice. Who but an Archangel uses an Archangel's voice? You neglected to answer why God would use his own voice when approving of his son's baptism, but not when calling his anointed to heaven? Care to answer that one?

I believe as you do, JD, that Jesus is not "God" the Father. He was the first member of the "God" family. A close examination of the scriptures supports he was a created "God", although it does not support his identity as Michael. As I posted in pg 5, the grammar of this passage does not support it.

Additionally, Jesus, the King, announcing his own coronation is inconsistent with Israel's coronation of its kings. Others would blow the trumpet and shout the proclamation, not the king himself:

2Ki 9:12-13 "You're hiding something," they said. "Tell us." So Jehu told them, "He said to me, 'This is what the LORD says: I have anointed you to be king over Israel.'" 13 Then they quickly spread out their cloaks on the bare steps and blew the ram's horn, shouting, "Jehu is king!"

1 Ki 1:39 There Zadok the priest took the flask of olive oil from the sacred tent and anointed Solomon with the oil. Then they sounded the ram's horn and all the people shouted, "Long live King Solomon!" ​

There is also the inconsistency between Michael's refusal and request for a third person (the Lord) to rebuke the devil (Jud 1:9) and Christ having no problem doing so himself (Mat 17:18). Suggesting the two had their own separate identities and levels of authority.

 

[JFish123]

Which translation are you using?

1 Thessalonians 4:16......"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (ESV)

1 Thessalonians 4:16...."because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (Mounce Interlinear)

1 Thessalonians 4:16...."For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (NASB)

1 Thessalonians 4:16...."For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (NKJV)

Seems pretty straight forward to me. The Lord has an Archangel's voice. Who but an Archangel uses an Archangel's voice? You neglected to answer why God would use his own voice when approving of his son's baptism, but not when calling his anointed to heaven? Care to answer that one?



I have already mentioned that it isn't doctrine with us...it is a belief, based on what the rest of the scriptures say.
It won't matter whether Jesus is Michael or not, because it changes nothing for us.....it only matters to you because it would prove that Jesus is not God. We don't need this belief to prove that Jesus is not God...the rest of the Bible does so.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you are not as well versed in the scriptures as you make out. You are simply cutting and pasting what other people have said without really checking to see if what you believe is true.

How many members are there in your church? With whom do you worship? Who are your teachers?

I know what I believe is true but thanks for caring now, on a side note, seriously not to debate or try to get one up on you: Jesus said we can and should cast demons out of people including ourselves. Now the Catholic Church goes way too far with these rituals and chants they say but the foundation to do it is Biblical. When we sin, we give satan an opportunity by letting the door open to demons in our lives. Or demons from our family, etc... A good read is:

This youtube channel you may like as he goes into the original Greek and Hebrew of almost if not every single text he says.

 

[JFish123]

Which translation are you using?

1 Thessalonians 4:16......"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (ESV)

1 Thessalonians 4:16...."because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (Mounce Interlinear)

1 Thessalonians 4:16...."For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (NASB)

1 Thessalonians 4:16...."For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (NKJV)

Seems pretty straight forward to me. The Lord has an Archangel's voice. Who but an Archangel uses an Archangel's voice? You neglected to answer why God would use his own voice when approving of his son's baptism, but not when calling his anointed to heaven? Care to answer that one?



I have already mentioned that it isn't doctrine with us...it is a belief, based on what the rest of the scriptures say.
It won't matter whether Jesus is Michael or not, because it changes nothing for us.....it only matters to you because it would prove that Jesus is not God. We don't need this belief to prove that Jesus is not God...the rest of the Bible does so.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you are not as well versed in the scriptures as you make out. You are simply cutting and pasting what other people have said without really checking to see if what you believe is true.

How many members are there in your church? With whom do you worship? Who are your teachers?

Someone brought up a point just now in a post above of in Israel's coronation with Kings, the King wouldn't blow a horn but others. So the Arc angel Michael would Herald the King (Jesus).
Also, to add to that, when God talked at the baptism, it was to confirm His Son was Jesus, whereas this is heralding Jesus' return. For we are to recognize three particulars, following each other in rapid succession - the commanding shout of the King himself, the voice of the archangel summoning the other angels, and the trump of God which awakens the dead and collects believers.

 

[JayJayDee]

I know what I believe is true but thanks for caring now, on a side note, seriously not to debate or try to get one up on you: Jesus said we can and should cast demons out of people including ourselves. Now the Catholic Church goes way too far with these rituals and chants they say but the foundation to do it is Biblical. When we sin, we give satan an opportunity by letting the door open to demons in our lives. Or demons from our family, etc....

JW's are not unacquainted with the activity of the demons. I myself have had experience with demonic harassment.

But the casting out of demons was one of the empowerments of the holy spirit. This power was only passed along by the apostles because they served for time and a purpose (to establish the Christian congregation in the first century). Paul said that "powerful works" are now in the domain of the devil to fool people (2 Thess 2:9, 10)...that is why we do not practice any of them. The need to see miracles (which Paul said was a trait of spiritual infants) is an invitation for the devil to take advantage of our gullibility and lack of knowledge. Nothing like a good dose of deception in the face of ignorance to win a victory.

We can combat the demons by means of holy spirit today, but it is more in a personal way, by study and prayer, not through any intervention by someone claiming to have the gift. This was my personal experience.

 

[McBell]

God The Father doesn't have a soul.

Source please.

 

[Wharton]

Source please.

The Father is above creation and doesn't need a soul.

 

[McBell]

The Father is above creation and doesn't need a soul.

I asked for your source, not another bold empty claim.

 

[Wharton]

I asked for your source, not another bold empty claim.

My brain. How's that? It's kind of like the schism about who the Holy Spirit proceeds from. Father or Son. Does it really matter?

Depending on which scripture translation you use, God may or may not have a soul. Jesus, yes. The Father and the Holy Spirit, no.

 

[McBell]

Does it really matter?

Apparently it does.
At least in your version of god....

 

[Yoshua]

What does the sound of the trumpet mean? It is the herald for what is about to take place....it is God's announcement through his son, that it is time for those who belong to Christ to "rise first". Who is it that Jesus takes to heaven?
It is those whom God chose to rule with him. They will be "kings and priests" (Rev 20:6) who will experience the "first resurrection" which does not take place until this time. No one went to heaven before Jesus and no one went to heaven but Jesus until the time of his return and his command to collect his anointed ones. This is what the scriptures say.

For JW's this is not a doctrine but a belief. Since the Bible only infers it, we hold that it seems to be true, but we will not stake our lives on it, nor would it matter in the big scheme of things if Jesus proved not to be Michael. Nothing changes in our belief system one way or the other. We have ascertained from scripture that various scriptures seem to point to it.

The one thing that we do know for sure...is that Jesus does not share equality of any sort with his God and Father.

There is nothing in the Bible that prevents Jesus being Michael in his pre-human existence. Names relate to roles in heaven, therefore Jesus can have various names according to the role he is playing at any given time. He is a capable of having more than one name.

The only doctrine that stands in the way of people accepting that Jesus is also Michael, is the trinity and it is not biblical.

In the 2nd coming of Christ, did the Archangel Michael bring with him his angels?

Thanks

 

[JayJayDee]

In the 2nd coming of Christ, did the Archangel Michael bring with him his angels?

You are confusing his "coming" with his "presence". In Matt 24:3, Jesus was asked about the sign of his "presence" which would indicate that he had begun ruling as king. This sign was linked to the conclusion of the system of things.
We did not see Christ's enthronement in heaven because that realm is not visible to us. Daniel saw it in a vision and recorded it for our benefit. Remember that all that Daniel wrote pertained to "the time of the end". Read Dan 7:13, 14 and see that Christ was crowned as king at that time. The signs he gave were to make his disciples aware of his presence as ruler. Part of the sign he gave was the global preaching of the good news. (Matt 24:14)

When Christ comes as judge and executioner....we will all know it, because "every eye will see him".

Those who did not discern his presence, will not be prepared for his coming. He told us to "keep on the watch" because that day will strike suddenly, 'at an hour we do not think it to be' (Matt 24:32-44)

 

[JayJayDee]

I believe as you do, JD, that Jesus is not "God" the Father. He was the first member of the "God" family. A close examination of the scriptures supports he was a created "God", although it does not support his identity as Michael. As I posted in pg 5, the grammar of this passage does not support it.

Additionally, Jesus, the King, announcing his own coronation is inconsistent with Israel's coronation of its kings. Others would blow the trumpet and shout the proclamation, not the king himself:

What makes you think he is announcing his coronation? He has already had his coronation in heaven, so now with the fulfilment of the sign, the reigning king is coming to take the last of his bride home.

There is also the inconsistency between Michael's refusal and request for a third person (the Lord) to rebuke the devil (Jud 1:9) and Christ having no problem doing so himself (Mat 17:18). Suggesting the two had their own separate identities and levels of authority.

I see no inconsistency. All I see is a lack of authorisation. When Michael refused to rebuke the devil, it was not his place because he was yet authorised to do that. Christ was sent forth with all authority from his Father when he became the Christ, so he could rightly condemn the devil and his followers. He was authorised at his baptism and empowered with the holy spirit to perform miracles, which included the expelling of demons.