JW's Jesus is Archangel Michael?

[Yoshua]

But heaven forbid there could be wrong understanding of the scriptures by Christendom, formulated exactly when an apostasy was foretold eh?
What a co-incidence! You take so much for granted. That is the only Christianity you have ever known....the interesting thing is, that Jesus says he NEVER KNEW the ones he rejects at the judgment time. (Matt 7:21-23) That means that the Christianity they claim to follow is not, and never has been recognized by him.

What apostasy are you talking about? Do you mean there is apostasy? Can you elaborate more on this?

Yes, Jesus is a separate person to Jehovah. Jesus called his Father "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3) He identified himself as one sent forth by his Father. He only ever called himself "God's son"....he never once said he was God. He directed all worship to his Father. (Luke 4:8)

Thomas confessed it, “My Lord , My God”. You also believed that Jesus is mighty God. Isn’t it?

I believe they can. Who but an archangel speaks with an archangel's voice? If God used his own voice at Jesus baptism, why use the inferior voice of a lesser being to call his anointed to heaven?

I did not get this. Can you explain further, what is the connection of Father God’s voice with archangel?

What contradiction? The pre-human Jesus was no ordinary angel. He was the first and only direct creation of his father. All other things were created through the agency of the son. (Col 1:15, 16; Prov 8:22, 30, 31) That makes this "son of God" superior to all the others. There are many "sons of God" mentioned in the Bible, but this son is "only begotten". He is a unique creation...the beginning of God's creativity. (Rev 3:14)

I believe that you need to do a study on "pro·sky·neʹo" which is the word translated "worship" in the Greek scriptures.

In 1 Cor 15:27 it is clear that all things are subject to Jesus except the Father himself. That would include all the other angels....but nowhere is Jesus "worshipped" in the same way that Almighty God is worshipped. Pro·sky·neʹo can be rendered "obeisance" just as it should be when the magi honored the one born "king of the Jews". They were not worshipping Jesus as a god, but giving him honor as a child of royalty.

Some translation only render pro·sky·neʹo as "worship" but that is misleading. Some correctly render it by such expressions as “bow before” (AT; Yg) and ‘pay homage’ (NE) which is its wider meaning. It doesnt always denote the kind of worship offered to a deity.

"The Greek word pro·sky·neʹo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hish·ta·chawahʹ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship. The term pro·sky·neʹo is used in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king (Mt 18:26) as well as the act Satan stipulated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. (Mt 4:8, 9) Had he done obeisance to the Devil, Jesus would thereby have signified submission to Satan and made himself the Devil’s servant. But Jesus refused, saying: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of Gr. pro·sky·neʹo or, in the Deuteronomy account that Jesus was quoting, Heb. hish·ta·chawahʹ], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service [form of Gr. la·treuʹo or Heb. ‛a·vadhʹ].’” (Mt 4:10; De 5:9; 6:13)" (Insight Volumes)

In Australia, which followed the British legal system, judges used to be addressed as "Your Worship" denoting that they held a position of respect. The American system called them "Your Honor" demonstrating the same thing.

You assume too much. Do some deeper study and research. Its amazing what you can find. Read the scriptures provided and comment on them.

Are you aware that JW used the word worship before (a long time ago) and change it into “obeisance”? Can you give me scriptures that the word “worship” was used (and not obeisance)?

Thanks

 

[james2ko]

I'm sure Pegg gave you the same answer I will.

When Christ was enthroned in heaven he gave a sign to show when that took place, (Matt 24:3) He mentioned a series of world events to look for to indicate when the last days of this present age began. The 'coronation' mentioned in Daniel 7:13, 14 took place in heaven unseen to human eyes, which is why it needed a sign to identify it. This is what we believe happened in 1914. Jesus said it would be the "sign of his presence" (parousia) not that he was "coming" at the time.

Daniel's prophesy pertains to "the time of the end" so this is when Christ receives his kingship and all the events he foretold would take place, including the global preaching about the kingdom. (Matt 24:14) Jesus said he would direct this work. (Matt 28:19, 20)

As foretold in Psalm 110:1,2 Jesus was to "sit at God's right hand until his enemies were placed as a stool for his feet".
Then he was to "go subduing in the midst of his enemies"....so Jesus' rulership was not going to bring peace but a period when world conditions would go from bad to worse. People would be given a message as "a witness to all the nations" before "the end" would come.

Only when all the foretold events had taken place, especially the preaching work, would Jesus "come" to judge the world......to separate the sheep and the goats. This is when "every eye will see him"...not at the beginning of the last days...but at the end.

Is this 1914 "secret coming" prophecy a belief or a doctrine?

I don't think so. We will admit when we are wrong...we are not wrong about this one.

We shall see.

 

[savagewind]

Is this 1914 "secret coming" prophecy a belief or a doctrine?



We shall see.

It is a doctrine. Someone has been disfellowshipped for being convinced it isn't so. I forget her name, but if you need it I can probably find it.

 

[james2ko]

It is a doctrine. Someone has been disfellowshipped for being convinced it isn't so. I forget her name, but if you need it I can probably find it.

Thanks for the answer. I'd like to hear it from JD's fingers

 

[savagewind]

Thanks for the answer. I'd like to hear it from JD's fingers

Have you ever heard of theocratic warfare? If it is a doctrine you won't hear from them. If they think they can sneak it by as only a belief then be bored if you want to be bored because that is what they will do.

 

[JayJayDee]

Thanks for the answer. I'd like to hear it from JD's fingers

Thank you.

It is an integral part of our belief. It is calculated according to Daniel's prophesy. It is the same calculation that allowed The Jews to know when to expect their Messiah to make his appearance.

Under the heading...."Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses say that God’s Kingdom was established in 1914?" you can see how it is calculated.

Dates — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Just as a side note, no one is disfellowshipped for holding doubts. In that case Thomas would have been expelled from his place among the apostles. Someone who wanted to spread their doubts to others in order to promote their own view or to undermine their faith?...that is a different story. After counselling to address their concerns, if they persisted in spreading dischord, then that person would be shown the door.
The one sided stories posted on the Internet never end, as do those who promote them as truth. Human nature doesn't change apparently.

Now, back to the question......Jesus did not give a "sign of his coming"...he gave a "sign of his presence" (parousia) When someone is present, we don't necessarily see them arrive. If Jesus had to give a "sign" that he was "present" and ruling as king, then it wasn't a visible event. What Daniel describes as taking place in heaven is not something that was visible to us. (Dan 7:13, 14)

Jesus' "manifestation" when he comes as judge is another completely separate event...this is the culmination of all that was to take place during the "last days". Then "every eye will see him" and they will know that it's crunch time.

If we have not discerned his "presence", we will not be prepared for his "coming". There were things that people had to do during this period when a global "witness to all the nations" was to be given. (Matt 24:14) Responding to that message, as well as 'getting out of Babylon the great' were necessary in order to avoid in sharing in the punishment that God is about to mete out to her. (Rev 18:4, 5) No one really knew what Babylon the great was until this "time of the end".

Taking a 'wait and see' attitude is not recommended, because once we "see" Jesus coming as judge, it will be too late to change course. The position we have chosen up to that point, is the one on which we will be judged. According to Matt 7:21-23, no excuses will be accepted.

This is serious stuff!

 

[savagewind]

Thank you.

It is an integral part of our belief. It is calculated according to Daniel's prophesy. It is the same calculation that allowed The Jews to know when to expect their Messiah to make his appearance.

Under the heading...."Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses say that God’s Kingdom was established in 1914?" you can see how it is calculated.

Dates — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Just as a side note, no one is disfellowshipped for holding doubts. In that case Thomas would have been expelled from his place among the apostles. Someone who wanted to spread their doubts to others in order to promote their own view or to undermine their faith?...that is a different story. After counselling to address their concerns, if they persisted in spreading dischord, then that person would be shown the door.
The one sided stories posted on the Internet never end, as do those who promote them as truth. Human nature doesn't change apparently.

Now, back to the question......Jesus did not give a "sign of his coming"...he gave a "sign of his presence" (parousia) When someone is present, we don't necessarily see them arrive. If Jesus had to give a "sign" that he was "present" and ruling as king, then it wasn't a visible event. What Daniel describes as taking place in heaven is not something that was visible to us. (Dan 7:13, 14)

Jesus' "manifestation" when he comes as judge is another completely separate event...this is the culmination of all that was to take place during the "last days". Then "every eye will see him" and they will know that it's crunch time.

If we have not discerned his "presence", we will not be prepared for his "coming". There were things that people had to do during this period when a global "witness to all the nations" was to be given. (Matt 24:14) Responding to that message, as well as 'getting out of Babylon the great' were necessary in order to avoid in sharing in the punishment that God is about to mete out to her. (Rev 18:4, 5) No one really knew what Babylon the great was until this "time of the end".

Taking a 'wait and see' attitude is not recommended, because once we "see" Jesus coming as judge, it will be too late to change course. The position we have chosen up to that point, is the one on which we will be judged. According to Matt 7:21-23, no excuses will be accepted.

This is serious stuff!

Told you so! Not a belief or a doctrine. It is a hybrid.

 

[james2ko]

Now, back to the question......Jesus did not give a "sign of his coming"...he gave a "sign of his presence" (parousia). If Jesus had to give a "sign" that he was "present" and ruling as king, then it wasn't a visible event.

1. If He gave a sign of His presence, why didn't the holy spirit inspire the term? Christ elsewhere used a term translated "presence" [enopion-1799] which can be interpreted literally or figuratively (Luk 13:26; 14:10;15:10), yet in Mat 24 he used a term [parousia] that can only be defined as a physical, visible coming or presence:

-Strong's: Parousia--From the present participle of G3918; a being near that is advent (often return; specifically of christ to punish Jerusalem or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming presence. ​

Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming [parousia], and of the end of the age?"
​

When someone is present, we don't necessarily see them arrive

2. That is self-refuting statement . If we don't see them arrive, that is an indication they are not present.

What Daniel describes as taking place in heaven is not something that was visible to us. (Dan 7:13, 14)

3. I believe Daniel saw a vision of Christ going into heaven to be with the Father. This occurred right after He disappeared from the disciples sight (Act 1:11). Dan 7:14 is obviously not referring to the present heavenly reign of Christ because all nations, peoples, and languages are not serving Him. But they will when He visibly returns to dwell and rule from Jerusalem in the future!

Zec 8:20 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Peoples shall yet come, Inhabitants of many cities;
Zec 8:21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, "Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD, And seek the LORD of hosts. I myself will go also."
Zec 8:22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, And to pray before the LORD.'

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested."
​

Thank you. It is an integral part of our belief. It is calculated according to Daniel's prophesy. It is the same calculation that allowed The Jews to know when to expect their Messiah to make his appearance.Under the heading...."Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses say that God’s Kingdom was established in 1914?" you can see how it is calculated. Dates — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

​

Jesus' "manifestation" when he comes as judge is another completely separate event...this is the culmination of all that was to take place during the "last days". Then "every eye will see him" and they will know that it's crunch time.

If we have not discerned his "presence", we will not be prepared for his "coming". There were things that people had to do during this period when a global "witness to all the nations" was to be given. (Matt 24:14) Responding to that message, as well as 'getting out of Babylon the great' were necessary in order to avoid in sharing in the punishment that God is about to mete out to her. (Rev 18:4, 5) No one really knew what Babylon the great was until this "time of the end".

Taking a 'wait and see' attitude is not recommended, because once we "see" Jesus coming as judge, it will be too late to change course. The position we have chosen up to that point, is the one on which we will be judged. According to Matt 7:21-23, no excuses will be accepted.

This is serious stuff!

4. Since you say it is a belief, according to your definition of belief and doctrine, its basis stems from inference. That would be correct as the 607 BC date for the destruction of Jerusalem goes against all historical, archaeological, astronomical, and even biblical evidence.

 

[Unification]

Because Jesus is not the only "son of God". That is why he is called the "firstborn".
There is no confusion if you remove the trinity. Instead of trying to make the rest of scripture support this erroneous doctrine, you just have to know the simple truth.

The Angels are called "sons of God" and so is Adam. (Job 38:7; Luke 3:38) Why? Because they are direct creations of God's spirit. It is not rocket science. When you remove the false teaching, everything falls into place.

"Sons" are metaphoric for wisdom and knowledge - truth. Child: a seed of knowledge(neuron). Where are children/seeds planted: in ones brain/mind. Just as daughters of man are "emotions" of mankind.

Angels are messengers of light, photons.

Light, electromagnetic energy, and the atom are direct creations and are an ongoing process also within our brains and minds.

Not rocket science. Simple truth.

 

[JayJayDee]

1. If He gave a sign of His presence, why didn't the holy spirit inspire the term? Christ elsewhere used a term translated "presence" [enopion-1799] which can be interpreted literally or figuratively (Luk 13:26; 14:10;15:10), yet in Mat 24 he used a term [parousia] that can only be defined as a physical, visible coming or presence:

-Strong's: Parousia--From the present participle of G3918; a being near that is advent (often return; specifically of christ to punish Jerusalem or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming presence. ​

Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming [parousia], and of the end of the age?"​

​

"Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 1, pp. 208, 209) states: “PAROUSIA . . . denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with. For instance, in a papyrus letter [written in Greek] a lady speaks of the necessity of her parousia in a place in order to attend to matters relating to her property there. . . . When used of the return of Christ, at the Rapture of the Church, it signifies, not merely His momentary coming for His saints, but His presence with them from that moment until His revelation and manifestation to the world.” Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon (revised by H. Jones, Oxford, 1968, p. 1343) shows that pa·rou·siʹa is used at times in secular Greek literature to refer to the “visit of a royal or official personage.”

Secular Greek writings are, of course, helpful in determining the sense of this Greek term. However, even more effective is the use given the word in the Bible itself. At Philippians 2:12, for example, Paul speaks of the Philippian Christians as obeying “not during my presence [pa·rou·siʹai] only, but now much more readily during my absence [a·pou·siʹai].” So, too, at 2 Corinthians 10:10, 11, after referring to those who said that “his letters are weighty and forceful, but his presence [pa·rou·siʹa] in person is weak and his speech contemptible,” Paul adds, “Let such a man take this into account, that what we are in our word by letters when absent [a·ponʹtes], such we shall also be in action when present [pa·ronʹtes].” (Compare also Php 1:24-27.) Thus, the contrast is between presence and absence, not between an arrival (or coming) and departure.

In view of this, J. B. Rotherham’s Emphasised Bible states in its appendix (p. 271): “In this edition the word parousia is uniformly rendered ‘presence’ (‘coming,’ as a representative of this word, being set aside). . . . The sense of ‘presence’ is so plainly [shown] by the contrast with ‘absence’ . . . that the question naturally arises,—Why not always so render it?”

That Jesus’ pa·rou·siʹa is not simply a momentary coming followed by a rapid departure but is, rather, a presence covering a period of time is also indicated by his words recorded at Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-30. Here “the days of Noah” are compared to “the presence of the Son of man” (“the days of the Son of man,” in Luke’s account). Jesus, therefore, does not limit the comparison just to the coming of the Deluge as a final climax during Noah’s days, though he shows that his own “presence” or “days” will see a similar climax. Since “the days of Noah” actually covered a period of years, there is basis for believing that the foretold “presence [or “days”] of the Son of man” would likewise cover a period of some years, being climaxed by the destruction of those not giving heed to the opportunity afforded them to seek deliverance."

Presence — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I believe Daniel saw a vision of Christ going into heaven to be with the Father. This occurred right after He disappeared from the disciples sight (Act 1:11).

Psalm 110:1, 2 says otherwise. Jesus sat at God's right hand waiting for his 'enemies to be placed as a stool for his feet'.
He was not crowned as king then, because his first act as ruler of the kingdom was to evict satan and his hordes from heaven. The sign of his presence commenced from then. Satan's activities have continued to intensify as his time grows shorter. Today he is no longer subtle...he has pulled out all the stops and he is in people!s faces....morally, physically and spiritually. Don't tell me you can't see it.

Dan 7:14 is obviously not referring to the present heavenly reign of Christ because all nations, peoples, and languages are not serving Him. But they will when He visibly returns to dwell and rule from Jerusalem in the future!

It is after Christ conquers his enemies that people will all serve him as king. They will be the only ones remaining.
His kingdom is everlasting, which means that all other kingdoms in opposition must be overthrown before that can take place. (Dan 2:44)

All of Daniel's prophesies pertain to "the time of the end" so that puts Jesus enthronement at the beginning of that period. (Dan 7:13, 14) 1914 fits perfectly.

Daniel also saw the march of world powers as they interacted with God's people. The last ruling entity before the conclusion of this system of things in the Anglo-American dual world power. The end will come in our time.

Since you say it is a belief, according to your definition of belief and doctrine, its basis stems from inference. That would be correct as the 607 BC date for the destruction of Jerusalem goes against all historical, archaeological, astronomical, and even biblical evidence.

We are not a "church"....we don't have a list of "doctrines"...we have a belief system. It is in the process of constant clarification as the food is served to us. The light gets brighter as Jehovah's day draws nearer. (Prov 4:18)
What we need to know is given to us when we need to know it. We gather together as Jehovah's people to encourage one another as we see that day approach. (Heb 10:24, 25)

You are free to believe whatever you wish.....and so are we. What we choose as our truth is the basis for judgment.....how we respond the the global "witness" that Jesus is conducting in "all the inhabited earth" determines our future. (Matt 24:14) Believe it or not....it's your choice.

 

[JayJayDee]

"Sons" are metaphoric for wisdom and knowledge - truth. Child: a seed of knowledge(neuron). Where are children/seeds planted: in ones brain/mind. Just as daughters of man are "emotions" of mankind.

Angels are messengers of light, photons.

Light, electromagnetic energy, and the atom are direct creations and are an ongoing process also within our brains and minds.

Not rocket science. Simple truth.

I'm sorry Unification, but your posts do not resonate with me on any level....even to make the effort to respond.

I don't want to be rude, but I have no idea what you mean most of the time...it is an obscure belief system you hold to. Simple to you perhaps, but it means nothing to me. We obviously have no common ground to work with.

 

[McBell]

"Sons" are metaphoric for wisdom and knowledge - truth. Child: a seed of knowledge(neuron). Where are children/seeds planted: in ones brain/mind. Just as daughters of man are "emotions" of mankind.

Angels are messengers of light, photons.

Light, electromagnetic energy, and the atom are direct creations and are an ongoing process also within our brains and minds.

Not rocket science. Simple truth.

interesting how freely people use the word "truth".
Sad they have rendered the word useless.

 

[savagewind]

"Sons" are metaphoric for wisdom and knowledge - truth. Child: a seed of knowledge(neuron). Where are children/seeds planted: in ones brain/mind. Just as daughters of man are "emotions" of mankind.

Angels are messengers of light, photons.

Light, electromagnetic energy, and the atom are direct creations and are an ongoing process also within our brains and minds.

Not rocket science. Simple truth.

I think "sons are metaphoric of wisdom and truth" is important for a Bible reader to consider. The fact is most people consider sons in scripture to mean real people. The bad seeds are "sons" of the wicked one and the good seeds are "sons" of the righteous one. Bad people and good people. Neither of these actually exists. But ideas that are either foolish or wise DO exist. It is not right to get rid of people, but it is certainly righteous to let go of bad ideas.

 

[JFish123]

THE TOP TEN
The Ultimate Answers to Prove Biblically that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are NOT the Same Person
EVIDENCE #1: Nowhere in the Scriptures does it explicitly state that Jesus is Michael the archangel.
EVIDENCE #2: The Scriptures contrast Jesus with angels specifically showcasing there differences.
"So he [the Son] has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." (Hebrews 1:4)
"For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father?" (Hebrews 1:5)
EVIDENCE #3: Michael is called "ONE OF the Chief Princes" (Daniel 10:13), which shows he is NOT unique as he is among equals (other Chief Princes). However, by contrast, The Greek word used to describe Jesus in John 3:16 ("For God so Loved the world that He gave his ONLY Son...") is monogenes-which Literally means "unique," "one of a kind." Jesus is NOT one among equals.
EVIDENCE #4: Again, Michael is called "one of the CHIEF PRINCES" (Daniel 10:13), Jesus however, is NEVER called Chief Prince in the scriptures, but instead called KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS, which is far superior to a mere chief prince.
EVIDENCE #5: If no angel can rule the world (Hebrews 2:5) how can Jesus be an angel when He is to be RULER of Gods Kingdom (Genesis 49:10, 2 Samuel 7:16, Psalm 2:6, Daniel 7:13-14, Luke 1:32-33, Matthew 2:1-2; 9:35, Revelation 19:16)
EVIDENCE #6: If no angel can be called Gods Son (Hebrews 1:5), the very FACT that Jesus IS the SON of God makes Him not an angel.
EVIDENCE #7: The Scripture tells us that Jesus is "The same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8), so He could not have been an angel, them a human, and then Recreated as an angel again.
EVIDENCE #8: When disputing the body of Moses with satan (Jude 9), Michael could NOT Rebuke him in his own authority, while by contrast, Jesus could and DID Rebuke satan In His own authority. And if Jesus, as Jehovahs Witnesses claim was given the power and authority to create everything, which means He created and had authority over the angels, including satan, but he still could not rebuke satan, means there is a huge hole in the Jehovahs Witnesses theory.
EVIDENCE #9: In Jude 9, Michael said to satan, "The LORD rebuke you." The Greek word for Lord is Kurios. It is the standard word for "Lord" in the New Testament. It is a direct parellel to YHWY or Jehovah in the Old Testament. And while Jesus is called Lord (Kurios) many times in the New Testament, Michael the angel is NEVER called Kurios.
EVIDENCE #10: Jesus has flesh and bone while Michael is a Spirit without flesh and bone. Jesus was Resurrected in a BODY which He still has.
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." They replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was HIS BODY." (John 2:19-21)
"... He was not abandoned to Hades, nor His flesh see corruption" (Acts 2:31). Why didn't His flesh "see corruption?" Because He was raised in a material, fleshly body.

CRITICS: The first scripture a critic will point to is 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."
There are several things wrong with this theory.
EVIDENCE #1: it ignores All the Evidence Above
EVIDENCE #2: Nowhere in this Scripture verse does it say Jesus is Michael.
EVIDENCE #3: When the Scripture says THE archangel, it doesn't say there's only one. It is one of identification as a well-known archangel instead of a limitation as the ONLY archangel. As Michael is described as ONE OF the Chief Princes (Daniel 10:13). Much like if there were 5 policemen, and you wanted to show which one saved your life, you'd say, "THE police officer Michael," identifying by their name, which one of the same rank (policemen/chief princes) saved you.
Evidence #4: If reference to an archangels voice makes Jesus an angel, by the very same logic, Jesus having Gods Trumpet makes Him God.
The Debate is Over. Thank You

 

[savagewind]

With the voice of an archangel makes him an archangel.
With the trumpet of God makes him God.

Good! OK people, there will be no more arguing about that!

He is not the archangel Michael and he is not God. Or he is the archangel Michael and he is God. OK, or maybe neither.

 

[McBell]

The Debate is Over. Thank You

one wonders why you think merely making the bold empty claim makes said bold empty claim any truer.

BTW:
You did not provide your source for the copy/copy paste.
That is called plagiarism and is not allowed.

 

[JayJayDee]

What apostasy are you talking about? Do you mean there is apostasy? Can you elaborate more on this?

Of course.

In the days of the apostles, an apostasy (a falling away) was already stirring. Men wanted to bring in teachings that conflicted with the teachings of the Christ. The apostles, who were the ones responsible for bestowing the gifts, were acting as a restraint against this apostasy that Jesus said would come. (2 Thess 2:1-3, 6, 7)

In his parable of the "wheat and the weeds" he said that satan would oversow the same "field" that Jesus had planted with fine wheat...with weeds of false Christianity. This was the "wolves in sheep's clothing" that we were warned about. These wolves were already at the door when the last of the apostles died. Then, when there was nothing to stop them, the weeds took over, as weeds always do. Both were to grow together in the world until the harvest time, when a separation would take place. (Matt 13:24-30) At the end of this period, the reapers would gather the weeds and dispose of them.

The promised return of Christ was expected early in the piece but unknown to the Bible writers, almost two thousand years would pass before Jesus returned to take his chosen ones home. By then, the world was choking in these weeds.

When we examine the history of the church, we see a decline in obedience to the teachings of the Christ from the second century onwards......so by the 4th century "Christianity was no longer recognisable as the church Jesus started.
It was taken hostage by Constantine the Great who fused pagan Roman sun worship with the poor excuse for Christianity that has developed over the centuries. Roman Carholicism was the mother church, but she has many daughters. Christendom is their sum total...part of the religious empire created by the devil to lead people away from God. We are told to "get out" of that spiritually adulterous "city". (Rev 18:4, 5)

Thomas confessed it, “My Lord , My God”. You also believed that Jesus is mighty God. Isn’t it?

Jesus qualifies for the title "god". As has been explained many times before, Thomas' expression was one of surprise....he was not stating a doctrine that none of the other apostles supported. Jesus himself identified his Father as "the only true God" (John 17:3) yet in John 1:18 Jesus is called "the only begotten god".

"God" in Greek is "theos" and simply means a "mighty one"....Thomas could rightly call Jesus a mighty one because of this incident.

Paul called satan "theos" (2 Cor 4:3, 4) Did he mean that satan was Almighty God or that he was a "mighty one"....someone with immense power. (1 John 5:19)
Sometimes the English translation does not reflect the Greek meaning at all.

I did not get this. Can you explain further, what is the connection of Father God’s voice with archangel?

Jesus is said to return with the voice of an archangel to call his chosen ones to heaven. Why would Jesus use the voice of a lesser being to make such an important call? If Jesus was God, then just as at Jesus' baptism, God's own voice was heard approving of his son, why would God not use his own voice to call his anointed to heaven?

Are you aware that JW used the word worship before (a long time ago) and change it into “obeisance”? Can you give me scriptures that the word “worship” was used (and not obeisance)?

"Are you aware?".....You use this phrase often....do you imagine that JW's are moronic mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed manure? Seriously...what do you imagine we are? Have you formed your opinion of us from our enemies? Do you really think we are that stupid? We are aware of everything. (John 15:18-21)
Those who formed those kinds of opinions in Jesus' day missed out on becoming his disciples....they are still waiting all these centuries later for him to put in his first appearance. They won't be prepared for his return.

We as Jehovah's people began a 'refining and cleansing' of our beliefs, "in the time of the end" just as Daniel had foretold. (Dan 12:4, 9, 10) Just as all was not revealed at once to Jesus apostles in the first century, so little by little our beliefs went through a cleansing and refining process that took many years. There was much work to do with so many centuries of apostate teachings to clear away. We sifted through our beliefs and one by one we threw away the erroneous teachings of Christendom and separated from them completely.

The word "proskenyo" has been described in detail already. The word is only used as "worship" in connection with Almighty God. Jesus never sought worship, (Luke 4:8) nor did he ever tell anyone to pray to him. He told us to pray to the Father in his name, acknowledging his service as "mediator between God and man".

"Proskenyo" is used to describe what the magi did to the child Jesus when they found him. Since they did not believe that he was a god, but simply "one born to be King of the Jews", they gave their honour and respect to this royal child.

There is so much ignorance about the Bible's teachings, it is as if we are surrounded by angry infants telling us that we have it all wrong. We have done thorough research and what we believe is cripturally sound. No one is forced to believe it......but we are compelled to preach it. What you do about it is nothing to do with us. (John 17:3) We are just the messengers. (1 Cor 3:6-9)

 

[JFish123]

one wonders why you think merely making the bold empty claim makes said bold empty claim any truer.

BTW:
You did not provide your source for the copy/copy paste.
That is called plagiarism and is not allowed.

Lol I didn't copy and paste anything online. Nice try dodging the evidence I presented

 

[JFish123]

Of course.

In the days of the apostles, an apostasy (a falling away) was already stirring. Men wanted to bring in teachings that conflicted with the teachings of the Christ. The apostles, who were the ones responsible for bestowing the gifts, were acting as a restraint against this apostasy that Jesus said would come. (2 Thess 2:1-3, 6, 7)

In his parable of the "wheat and the weeds" he said that satan would oversow the same "field" that Jesus had planted with fine wheat...with weeds of false Christianity. This was the "wolves in sheep's clothing" that we were warned about. These wolves were already at the door when the last of the apostles died. Then, when there was nothing to stop them, the weeds took over, as weeds always do. Both were to grow together in the world until the harvest time, when a separation would take place. (Matt 13:24-30) At the end of this period, the reapers would gather the weeds and dispose of them.

The promised return of Christ was expected early in the piece but unknown to the Bible writers, almost two thousand years would pass before Jesus returned to take his chosen ones home. By then, the world was choking in these weeds.

When we examine the history of the church, we see a decline in obedience to the teachings of the Christ from the second century onwards......so by the 4th century "Christianity was no longer recognisable as the church Jesus started.
It was taken hostage by Constantine the Great who fused pagan Roman sun worship with the poor excuse for Christianity that has developed over the centuries. Roman Carholicism was the mother church, but she has many daughters. Christendom is their sum total...part of the religious empire created by the devil to lead people away from God. We are told to "get out" of that spiritually adulterous "city". (Rev 18:4, 5)



Jesus qualifies for the title "god". As has been explained many times before, Thomas' expression was one of surprise....he was not stating a doctrine that none of the other apostles supported. Jesus himself identified his Father as "the only true God" (John 17:3) yet in John 1:18 Jesus is called "the only begotten god".

"God" in Greek is "theos" and simply means a "mighty one"....Thomas could rightly call Jesus a mighty one because of this incident.

Paul called satan "theos" (2 Cor 4:3, 4) Did he mean that satan was Almighty God or that he was a "mighty one"....someone with immense power. (1 John 5:19)
Sometimes the English translation does not reflect the Greek meaning at all.



Jesus is said to return with the voice of an archangel to call his chosen ones to heaven. Why would Jesus use the voice of a lesser being to make such an important call? If Jesus was God, then just as at Jesus' baptism, God's own voice was heard approving of his son, why would God not use his own voice to call his anointed to heaven?



"Are you aware?".....You use this phrase often....do you imagine that JW's are moronic mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed manure? Seriously...what do you imagine we are? Have you formed your opinion of us from our enemies? Do you really think we are that stupid? We are aware of everything. (John 15:18-21)
Those who formed those kinds of opinions in Jesus' day missed out on becoming his disciples....they are still waiting all these centuries later for him to put in his first appearance. They won't be prepared for his return.

We as Jehovah's people began a 'refining and cleansing' of our beliefs, "in the time of the end" just as Daniel had foretold. (Dan 12:4, 9, 10) Just as all was not revealed at once to Jesus apostles in the first century, so little by little our beliefs went through a cleansing and refining process that took many years. There was much work to do with so many centuries of apostate teachings to clear away. We sifted through our beliefs and one by one we threw away the erroneous teachings of Christendom and separated from them completely.

The word "proskenyo" has been described in detail already. The word is only used as "worship" in connection with Almighty God. Jesus never sought worship, (Luke 4:8) nor did he ever tell anyone to pray to him. He told us to pray to the Father in his name, acknowledging his service as "mediator between God and man".

"Proskenyo" is used to describe what the magi did to the child Jesus when they found him. Since they did not believe that he was a god, but simply "one born to be King of the Jews", they gave their honour and respect to this royal child.

There is so much ignorance about the Bible's teachings, it is as if we are surrounded by angry infants telling us that we have it all wrong. We have done thorough research and what we believe is cripturally sound. No one is forced to believe it......but we are compelled to preach it. What you do about it is nothing to do with us. (John 17:3) We are just the messengers. (1 Cor 3:6-9)

Sorry JayJayDee, but the old Jehovahs Witness argument that Thomas was "surprised" is completely False. Thomas was not expressing surprise at seeing the risen Christ when he called Him "My Lord and My God." If Thomas had done this he would have been guilty of taking Gods name in vain. Jews of the first century believed that any careless use of Gods name amounted to blasphemy. If Thomas HAD taken Gods name in vain, Jesus surely would have rebuked him for doing so. But not only did Jesus NOT rebuke Thomas, He COMMENDED Thomas for finally coming to believe He was who He said He was (both "Lord" and "God") Jesus affirmed Thomas, not corrected Him. No created being could ever allow such words to be addressed to him personally. No angel, no prophet, no sane human being could ever allow himself to be addressed as both Lord and God. Yet Jesus not only accepts the words of Thomas but pronounces the blessings of faith upon them as well. For Thomas wasn't just calling Jesus "a god." He was calling Jesus "His Lord" and "His God." And again, if Jesus was not God almighty in the same sense the Father is, He surely would have said something like, "No-I am just a lesser god. Jehovah is the only true God. You must not put me in Jehovahs place. Only Jehovah can be called my Lord and my God." But Jesus said Nothing. Instead, as I said, He Commended Thomas for recognizing His True Identity

 

[savagewind]

Sorry JayJayDee, but the old Jehovahs Witness argument that Thomas was "surprised" is completely False. Thomas was not expressing surprise at seeing the risen Christ when he called Him "My Lord and My God." If Thomas had done this he would have been guilty of taking Gods name in vain. Jews of the first century believed that any careless use of Gods name amounted to blasphemy. If Thomas HAD taken Gods name in vain, Jesus surely would have rebuked him for doing so. But not only did Jesus NOT rebuke Thomas, He COMMENDED Thomas for finally coming to believe He was who He said He was (both "Lord" and "God") Jesus affirmed Thomas, not corrected Him. No created being could ever allow such words to be addressed to him personally. No angel, no prophet, no sane human being could ever allow himself to be addressed as both Lord and God. Yet Jesus not only accepts the words of Thomas but pronounces the blessings of faith upon them as well. For Thomas wasn't just calling Jesus "a god." He was calling Jesus "His Lord" and "His God." And again, if Jesus was not God almighty in the same sense the Father is, He surely would have said something like, "No-I am just a lesser god. Jehovah is the only true God. You must not put me in Jehovahs place. Only Jehovah can be called my Lord and my God." But Jesus said Nothing. Instead, as I said, He Commended Thomas for recognizing His True Identity

It's a STORY! Please look at the ground under your feet. You are standing on a man's story.