JW's please stay away

[savagewind]

Ah, so you think the earth is going to be destroyed.


Yet the bible tells us this:
Psalms 105:5*He has founded the earth upon its established places; It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever


Isaiah 45:18*For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited:

Psalm 37:29*The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it


And it seems that Jesus had the same idea that the earth will continue to be inhabited because he said
Matt 5:5*“Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.


So i dont believe its correct to view those words of Peter as meaning the actual physical earth will be destroyed. Why would God destroy his creation and go back on his word about earth existing forever to time indefinite?

It doesnt make a lot of sense, does it?

I think there exists two possible scenerios. It is a fact that the Earth is in danger of being destroyed in more ways than one. Even Revelation 11:18 says there are those destroying or ruining the Earth.
Rev 11:18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets+ and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining* the earth.”

The nation of Israel was warned that their actions could ruin life. (Deut 30:19,20)
But if they obeyed they would be blessed.

There still exists the possibility that there won't be anyone righteous to possess the Earth forever. And you know that because you know Noah. Or don't you?

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, our sun won't last forever, so there must be a different earth/ existence that these authors are talking about.



It does.

if any teaching contradicts any scripture in Gods word, it cannot be accurate.

If you want to learn from God, you have to accept the entire bible to do that. But if you find a teaching contradicts Gods words in any place where that place cannot be shown to be symbolic or metaphorical or a parable of some kind, then you would do well to reject the teaching.

It is God who powers the sun. Scientists base their prediction on the fact that the sun is an extinguishable source of energy just like everything else in our universe. They dont bring God into the equation so they are looking at these things purely from a physical standpoint. And if God was not going to keep fusing the sun with power, then sure, it would extinguish eventually. But he is going to keep it powered because he tells us that he has put them in their place and they will remain there forever.


When you put your faith in God, the future is secure

 

[Pegg]

Maybe no God created anything and the words of the Bible are just ancient guesses and projections of people who were wrong.

they were very accurate guesses for ancient people.

 

[savagewind]

if any teaching contradicts any scripture in Gods word, it cannot be accurate.

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe there will be righteous who will inherit the Earth. They are those who obey the faithful and discreet slave of Matthew 24:45

“Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?” | Study

10 Who, then, is the faithful and discreet slave? In keeping with Jesus’ pattern of feeding many through the hands of a few, that slave is made up of a small group of anointed brothers who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food during Christ’s presence. Throughout the last days, the anointed brothers who make up the faithful slave have served together at headquarters. In recent decades, that slave has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Note, however, that the word “slave” in Jesus’ illustration is singular, indicating that this is a composite slave. The decisions of the Governing Body are thus made collectively.

That is so very interesting as you believe as you say here; "if any teaching contradicts any scripture in Gods word, it cannot be accurate" but the Bible says this; Psalm 146:3 and this; Romans 3:1-31
3 What, then, is the advantage of the Jew, or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 A great deal in every way. First of all, that they were entrusted with the sacred pronouncements of God.+ 3 What, then, is the case? If some lacked faith, will their lack of faith invalidate the faithfulness of God? 4 Certainly not! But let God be found true,+ even if every man be found a liar,+ just as it is written: “That you might be proved righteous in your words and might win when you are being judged.”+ 5 However, if our unrighteousness highlights God’s righteousness, what are we to say? God is not unjust when he expresses his wrath, is he? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6 By no means! How, otherwise, will God judge the world?+
7 But if by my lie the truth of God has been made more prominent to his glory, why am I also being judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, just as some men falsely claim that we say, “Let us do bad things that good things may come”? The judgment against those men is in harmony with justice.+
9 What then? Are we in a better position? Not at all! For above we have made the charge that Jews as well as Greeks are all under sin;+ 10 just as it is written: “There is not a righteous man, not even one;+ 11 there is no one who has any insight;

Does not the Jehovah's Witness guarentee of ever lasting life on Earth to those who obey a contradiction of those that can also be found in the Bible?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

if any teaching contradicts any scripture in Gods word, it cannot be accurate.

I believe that your teaching contradicts scripture in God's word and it is not accurate.

If you want to learn from God, you have to accept the entire bible to do that. But if you find a teaching contradicts Gods words in any place where that place cannot be shown to be symbolic or metaphorical or a parable of some kind, then you would do well to reject the teaching.

I agree. Was Peter wrong?

It is God who powers the sun. Scientists base their prediction on the fact that the sun is an extinguishable source of energy just like everything else in our universe. They dont bring God into the equation so they are looking at these things purely from a physical standpoint. And if God was not going to keep fusing the sun with power, then sure, it would extinguish eventually. But he is going to keep it powered because he tells us that he has put them in their place and they will remain there forever.

Again, was Peter wrong?

 

[savagewind]

The teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses that says to obey the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses is a protection from God's wrath is contradicting the scripture at Psalm 146:3 (Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.) and the many scriptures that say beware of false prophets.

 

[Pegg]

I believe that your teaching contradicts scripture in God's word and it is not accurate.


I agree. Was Peter wrong?


Again, was Peter wrong?

The real question to ask is did Peter mean the literal physical earth was to be destroyed. Thats the issue here. Was he speaking symbolically or literally, was the 'earth' and 'heavens' a metaphor for somthing else.


2Peter 3;7*But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men

If we were to take this literally, then its not only the earth which is going to be destroyed....its also the Heavens.

And Peter is implying then that the heavens need to be judged and the ungodly men within will be destroyed.


So do you think thats possible? Is it possible that the heavens, Gods residing place, actually contains ungodly men???

 

[Awoon]

they were very accurate guesses for ancient people.

Written after the fact.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

The real question to ask is did Peter mean the literal physical earth was to be destroyed. Thats the issue here. Was he speaking symbolically or literally, was the 'earth' and 'heavens' a metaphor for somthing else.

Literally.
2 Peter 3:9-11 (NIV)

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives

2Peter 3;7*But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men

If we were to take this literally, then its not only the earth which is going to be destroyed....its also the Heavens.

The atmosphere, not Heaven. LOL!

And Peter is implying then that the heavens need to be judged and the ungodly men within will be destroyed.

Your implying.

So do you think thats possible? Is it possible that the heavens, Gods residing place, actually contains ungodly men???

No

 

[Pegg]

Literally.
2 Peter 3:9-11 (NIV)

The atmosphere, not Heaven. LOL!

Your implying.
No

So you are willing to use reason here, thats good. You understand that it would be illogical to view 'heavens' literally because there is no reason for God to destroy his abiding place, hence you reason that it means the 'sky'

Maybe you can use the same reasoning with regard to the verses you quoted.



9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives


When i read verse 10, I see three different points being made
1. The heavens will disappear with a roar;
2. the elements will be destroyed by fire
3. the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

By your reasoning, your saying the sky will dissappear...that will destroy all life if we have no sky, then we have no oxygen and everything perishes.

Yet in the preceeding verse, Peter says " he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish"
So does God want everyone to perish or not? If he removes the sky, they surely will, but if he wants them to live, then maybe it means something else.

You also need to consider Peters words in Vs 5-7

"*For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6*and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. 7*But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.


Peter says that the earth and heavens of Noahs day were also destroyed. But it wasnt the actual 'earth' or 'sky' which was destroyed. It was only the wicked people. Noah survived, the earth survived, the sky is still here.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

So you are willing to use reason here, thats good. You understand that it would be illogical to view 'heavens' literally because there is no reason for God to destroy his abiding place, hence you reason that it means the 'sky'

The earth is not God's place.

John 18:36 (NIV)

36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

 

[savagewind]

if any teaching contradicts any scripture in Gods word, it cannot be accurate.

If you want to learn from God, you have to accept the entire bible to do that. But if you find a teaching contradicts Gods words in any place where that place cannot be shown to be symbolic or metaphorical or a parable of some kind, then you would do well to reject the teaching.

On the off chance I am not on "ignore" I shall try again.

The teaching that Matthew 24:45 speaks of imperfect humans set up as God's spokemen to obey for salvation CONTRADICTS Psalm 146:3 that says "Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save."

Are Matthew 24:45 and Psalm 146:3 BOTH parts of God's words?

Yes? The custom to believe Matthew 24:45 means men contradicts Psalm 146:3.

Hello?

 

[Pegg]

The earth is not God's place.

John 18:36 (NIV)

thats a good observation.

Did you observe how Peter likened the days of Noah to what would soon befall the earth?

3Peter 3:5*For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6*and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water


the best way to understand Peters letter is to understand what was destroyed in the days of Noah because Peter likens that destruction to the coming destruction.


And thats why we dont believe Peters words to mean a literal destruction of the earth. There will be a catstrophic event....but its not going to be the destruction of the planet.


This understanding actually works better for you. How? If you are going to be in heaven with God and Christ ruling as a king and Judge....who will you be ruling over if there is no earth or people? Obviously there must be someone to rule as a judge over.
Jesus spoke of the mild tempered 'inheriting the earth'... it stands to reason that you will be judging the people who will inherit the earth.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

thats a good observation.

Did you observe how Peter likened the days of Noah to what would soon befall the earth?

3Peter 3:5*For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6*and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water


the best way to understand Peters letter is to understand what was destroyed in the days of Noah because Peter likens that destruction to the coming destruction.


And thats why we dont believe Peters words to mean a literal destruction of the earth. There will be a catstrophic event....but its not going to be the destruction of the planet.

You got to keep reading.

2 Peter 3:13 (NIV)

13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

The operative word is "new". We live in a different world as Jesus also points out to the person who was crucified with him.

Luke 23:39-43 (NIV)

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Paradise is not here, but somewhere else.

 

[Pegg]

You got to keep reading.

2 Peter 3:13 (NIV)

The operative word is "new". We live in a different world as Jesus also points out to the person who was crucified with him.

Luke 23:39-43 (NIV)

Paradise is not here, but somewhere else.

If paradise is not on earth, we need to ask why the bible speaks so highly of the earth and why it tell us that we were created to be here and will remain here forever.

If you can't figure that out, then its nothing more then a contradiction.

However, you can still read Peters words without them contradicting the rest of the bible by accepting that the 'new earth' is an earth cleansed of wickedness....just as it was in Noahs day. The earth was not destroyed, only the wicked people on it. And I believe Peter's words should be understood in the same way and im sure thats why he likened the coming destruction to Noahs flood.
God will cleanse the earth, and righteous mankind will reside forever upon.

And you will be judging them from a heavenly location.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

If paradise is not on earth, we need to ask why the bible speaks so highly of the earth and why it tell us that we were created to be here and will remain here forever.

If you can't figure that out, then its nothing more then a contradiction.

However, you can still read Peters words without them contradicting the rest of the bible by accepting that the 'new earth' is an earth cleansed of wickedness....just as it was in Noahs day. The earth was not destroyed, only the wicked people on it. And I believe Peter's words should be understood in the same way and im sure thats why he likened the coming destruction to Noahs flood.
God will cleanse the earth, and righteous mankind will reside forever upon.

And you will be judging them from a heavenly location.

The way I see it fits perfectly with what the Bible says. The earth will be destroyed and science says it will. Heaven/paradise are one. But you don't believe that do you. So, that is that. Tell you what, you can stay here on earth as long as God wants you to. I'll be going to Heaven. Have a nice day.

 

[Pegg]

The way I see it fits perfectly with what the Bible says. The earth will be destroyed and science says it will. Heaven/paradise are one. But you don't believe that do you. So, that is that. Tell you what, you can stay here on earth as long as God wants you to. I'll be going to Heaven. Have a nice day.

Yes i'd much prefer that.


Can i ask you one last question.... i promise, last one....

Where was the original paradise?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Yes i'd much prefer that.


Can i ask you one last question.... i promise, last one....

Where was the original paradise?

Where it has always been Pegg. But not here.

 

[Pegg]

Where it has always been Pegg. But not here.

hmmm so cryptic.

Ok, well i did say i wouldnt question you anymore, so i suppose you'll just have to leave me hanging :faint:

anyway, still been a pleasure chatting.

 

[JayJayDee]

Where it has always been Pegg. But not here.

JM, I'm sorry, but that was a really lame answer. We all know that the first paradise was right here on earth. It is where God intended humans to live forever. What does "not here" mean?

Where does it say in the Bible that Adam and his wife would die and go to heaven as a natural consequence of being created? What was the only cause of death mentioned in the garden? As perfect beings, the first humans would not get sick, grow old or die UNLESS they disobeyed the only command that would lead to death.

How long did God intend humans to live on earth? What was the tree of life for?

Here's a clue....."Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever, —” With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of E′den to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of E′den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life." (Gen 3:22-24)

Why was the way to the tree of life barred?

Please think about it......?