JW's Preach A Different Gospel

[Pegg]

The GB does. Want to keep on going with this?

You heard that statement from a JW who is taught by the GB... do you want to go on?

 

[Pegg]

How do you know that?

Because God does not pre-destine anyone.

Mary was chosen for the woman she was at the time.... if she had of been someone without faith, she would not have been chosen.

 

[Wharton]

You heard that statement from a JW who is taught by the GB... do you want to go on?

I don't have to. The GB replaces the Messiah. That's good enough for me.

 

[katiemygirl]

You are cherry picking what I said and Your context seems to change from sentence to sentence.. Jesus mediates the new covenant and those chosen to be apart of it...initially that was the apostles to whom he said 'I make a covenant with you for a kingdom' He mediates for them while they are still imperfect and in the flesh, but once they have died and been ressurected, they are 'spotless' of all sin and therefore can take their place as members of the heavenly kingdom in the presence of God. Do the holy angels need a mediator? No, Why? because only sinners need a mediator. The purpose of the new covenant is ultimately for the saving of all mankind....so in that way, Jesus is still a mediator between us and God...it is only through Jesus that we can have a good standing with God. The articles you are quoting are speaking of the 'New Covenant' which is only between Jesus and his 144000 who will join him in heaven. We are not all members of that covenant.

Here: WT 2008 12/15 p13-15

13 What does Jesus’ role as Mediator involve? Well, Jehovah applies the value of Jesus’ blood to those being brought into the new covenant. In this way, Jehovah legally credits them with righteousness. (Rom. 3:24; Heb. 9:15) God can then take them into the new covenant with the prospect of their becoming heavenly king-priests! As their Mediator,Jesus assists them in maintaining a clean standing before God.—Heb. 2:16.

14 What about those who are not in the new covenant, those who hope to live forever on earth, not in heaven? While not participants in the new covenant, these are beneficiaries of it. They receive forgiveness of their sins and are declared righteous as God’s friends. (Jas. 2:23; 1 John 2:1, 2) Whether we have a heavenly hope or an earthly hope, each one of us has good reason to appreciate Jesus’ role as the Mediator of the new covenant.
​

I quoted from Watchtower. I took nothing out of context. Nor am I cherry picking. This is what your WTS teaches. This is why so many will call JW's false teachers. It says Jesus is mediator for only the anointed. It says Jesus is not mediator for all mankind.

"So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians." Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31

"Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members." Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" (1986) pp.10-11

Looks like your 08 Watchtower contradicts your 79 and 86 Watchtower. This seems to be a Watchtower pattern, always contradicting themselves.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The priesthood of Jesus comes from Melchizedek. If Jesus didn't plan on successors, there would have been no apostles.

Let me help you out about talmidim/apostles

Yeshua's Talmidim
Talmidim In Ancient Times
It is a common belief among many Christians that Yeshua was the first man in history to gather talmidim (disciples) around him. Is this assumption correct?

No! Hebrew history shows that Yeshua was by no means the first rabbi to gather talmidim . In fact long before the days of Yeshua, all the great sages of Jewish history had their own talmidim.

The Hebrew term talmid literally means student, its plural being talmidim. The responsibility of each talmid was to learn everything that his rabbi (lit. meaning - revered one or master) would teach. They learned to eat the same foods as their rabbi. They learned to celebrate the Shabbat the way their rabbi did and to perform tzedakah (righteousness or charity) as he taught. They even learned to pray and fast along with their rabbi. They learned how to keep the mitzvot (commandments) of Adonai. The talmidim followed their rabbi everywhere he went reflecting every aspect of his life.

A talmid became a living reflection of his rabbi. Once fully trained, some talmidim would in turn become rabbis to the next generation, gathering around them talmidim of their own . In this way the traditions and customs of Israel were handed down from one generation to the next. A practice that dated all the way back to the giving of Torah at Mt. Sinai. We see in Scripture, that even Moshe (Moses) passed on all he received from God, to his talmid -Y'hohsua (Joshua).

AKA Apostolic Succession

Jesus rejected all the norms of discipleship, according to the stories in the gospels. He upbraided the Pharisees for their discipleship practices and picked his own disciples from all sort of backgrounds. He left his disciples in the dark, literally telling them that he had not taught them what they would need. He literally told them this, and then to add insult to injury he left Earth. Now everybody on Earth who believes in Jesus wishes he were here, but instead of being here making disciples, he isn't. His apostles died and left -- also without particularly refined discipleship methods.

 

[Wharton]

Jesus rejected all the norms of discipleship, according to the stories in the gospels. He upbraided the Pharisees for their discipleship practices and picked his own disciples from all sort of backgrounds. He left his disciples in the dark, literally telling them that he had not taught them what they would need. He literally told them this, and then to add insult to injury he left Earth. Now everybody on Earth who believes in Jesus wishes he were here, but instead of being here making disciples, he isn't. His apostles died and left -- also without particularly refined discipleship methods.

Ah no. It's called rabbi/talmidim. Jesus used it. And he trained the talmidim/apostles for 3 years.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Ah no. It's called rabbi/talmidim. Jesus used it. And he trained the talmidim/apostles for 3 years.

It would be your burden to prove that and probably not an easy one, particularly since he was so clearly opposed to the discipleship methods of the factions and allowed himself to be baptized by John B. He chose his apostles in the worst possible way, too; at least by the way talmidim were normally chosen. He favored some over others, went off by himself without telling anyone, etc. There are so many, many ways that the gospels record he wasn't in the typical discipleship program; and in addition James his brother robustly defeats the concept of a line of discipleship. There's just no room for an apostolic line unless you sideline a lot of NT stuff. History also appears to bear this out.

 

[Wharton]

It would be your burden to prove that and probably not an easy one, particularly since he was so clearly opposed to the discipleship methods of the factions and allowed himself to be baptized by John B. He chose his apostles in the worst possible way, too; at least by the way talmidim were normally chosen. He favored some over others, went off by himself without telling anyone, etc. There are so many, many ways that the gospels record he wasn't in the typical discipleship program; and in addition James his brother robustly defeats the concept of a line of discipleship. There's just no room for an apostolic line unless you sideline a lot of NT stuff. History also appears to bear this out.

The baptism by John B confirms Jesus as a Jewish teacher with authority after which he gathers his disciples/talmidim. Yes, his talmidim weren't the best and the brightest and you could rightly call them the F-postles rather than the A-postles.

James his brother is problematic for me. Reading info on James, there seems to be a problem with him being the actual brother of Jesus in my mind.

The most complete description of James the Just is found in Saint Jerome's De Viris Illustribus, which quotes from the fifth book of Hegesippus' lost Commentaries:
After the apostles, James the brother of the Lord surnamed the Just was made head of the Church at Jerusalem. Many indeed are called James. This one was holy from his mother's womb. He drank neither wine nor strong drink, ate no flesh, never shaved or anointed himself with ointment or bathed. He alone had the privilege of entering the Holy of Holies, since indeed he did not use woolen vestments but linen and went alone into the temple and prayed in behalf of the people, insomuch that his knees were reputed to have acquired the hardness of camels' knees.

If James did indeed enter the Holy of Holies, that would make him a Levite/High Priest and not related to Jesus who is from the tribe of Judah.

But it matters not in the overall. The Apostles elect James as the bishop of Jerusalem. The bishop presides over the local church.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

No, Why? because only sinners need a mediator.

I'm a sinner, that makes Jesus my mediator.

The purpose of the new covenant is ultimately for the saving of all mankind....so in that way, Jesus is still a mediator between us and God...it is only through Jesus that we can have a good standing with God.

I agree with this 100%.

The articles you are quoting are speaking of the 'New Covenant' which is only between Jesus and his 144000 who will join him in heaven. We are not all members of that covenant.

WOW! What a play with grammar! All mankind is under the "new covenant" but only the 144,000 are under the "New Covenant"?

There is only "ONE" covenant, the covenant in Jesus' blood, that He shed for "MANY".

 

[JFish123]

Because God does not pre-destine anyone.

Mary was chosen for the woman she was at the time.... if she had of been someone without faith, she would not have been chosen.

God knows the future so He knew Mary would be with faith.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

*** w13 7/15 p. 15 par. 3 Feeding Many Through the Hands of a Few ***
3 Moved by compassion, Jesus performs a miracle—the only miracle that is recorded by all four Gospel writers. (Mark 6:35-44; Luke 9:10-17; John 6:1-13) Jesus has his disciples tell the crowd to recline on the green grass in groups of 50 and of 100. After saying a blessing, he begins breaking the bread and dividing up the fish. Then, rather than giving the food to the people directly, Jesus distributes it “to the disciples, the disciples in turn to the crowds.” Miraculously, there is more than enough for everyone to eat! Just think: Jesus has fed thousands through the hands of a few—his disciples.



*** w13 7/15 p. 22 par. 10 “Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?” ***
10 Who, then, is the faithful and discreet slave? In keeping with Jesus’ pattern of feeding many through the hands of a few, that slave is made up of a small group of anointed brothers who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food during Christ’s presence.


Luke 6:12-17
13 And when it became day, he called his disciples to him and choose from among them 12, whom he also named apostles. (How many Disciples were there for Him to choose 12?)

17 And he came down with them and stood on a level place, and there was a large crowd of his disciples, and a great multitude of people. (Were there only a few Disciples that followed Jesus?)


Luke 8:1-3
1And the twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, 3 and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's household manager, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their means.


Luke 9:14
14 There were, in fact, about 5,000 men. But he said to his disciples: “Have them sit down in groups of about 50 each.” (6:17 says there was a “LARGE CROWD” of His disciples with Him)


Luke 19:37
37 As soon as he got near the road down the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and to praise God with a loud voice because of all the powerful works they had seen.


Before Jesus fed the 5,000 and after He fed the 5,000 there was a great multitude of Disciples that were with Him. So how can the GB claim He fed many through the hands of a few?

 

[psychoslice]

I don't believe in one gospel, the gospel meaning good news is whatever gospel, as long as it has good news, as long as it brings you to God. Fighting over who has the true gospel is nothing more than childishness, and only takes you away from God, so stop it !.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Because God does not pre-destine anyone.

That's not true, John was pre-destined to be the fore runner of Jesus. That was John's purpose, to prepare the way of the Lord.

Luke 1:13-17 (ESVST) "Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth, 15 for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. 16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God, 17 and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared."

Luke 3:3-6 (ESVST) 3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4 As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet,
"The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough places shall become level ways, 6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God."

 

[djhwoodwerks]

How much more deceitful and blasphemes can they get? The JW's take Jesus out of everything! If they'd add verse 9 in their teaching, it would destroy their teaching of declaring God's kingdom for salvation.


*** kc chap. 16 p. 161 par. 19 “A Great Crowd” Hails the King ***
19 The apostle Paul declared in another letter: “With the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.” (Romans 10:10) Do you exercise faith in the “good news,” which focuses now on the kingdom of God, established in the heavens since 1914? Are you ‘making public declaration for salvation,’ as you pray for God’s kingdom to “come” with all of its destructive force to remove Satan’s organization from the earth? Are you zealous in telling others ‘publicly and from house to house’ of the Kingdom blessings that will flow to all mankind when shortly God’s will takes place, “as in heaven, also upon earth”?


Rom 10:8-10 (ESVST) "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

 

[Yoshua]

We haven't actually made any prophesies. We have anticipated the fulfilment of one prophesy...the "presence" of our Lord Jesus Christ and all of the signs he gave that would indicate that he was ruling in his kingdom. These are found in Matt 24:3-14. We always think it strange when people make this accusation, that we have all these failed prophesies, but it isn't true....but that doesn't stop people from spreading the lies. All we have done is mistake the timing....no biggie..the apostles did that too. (Acts 1:6)

We don't prophesy and prophesy.....we are told to "keep on the watch" for the approaching day of the Lord and that is what we have done. The parable of the ten virgins makes it clear that going to sleep spiritually will cause some to lose out on their invitation.

We would rather stand on the watchtower with our eyes peeled and sound the alarm prematurely, than go to sleep and miss it altogether.

Hi Jay,

1879 "Christ came in the character of a Bridegroom in 1874.... at the beginning of the Gospel harvest." (Watchtower, Oct 1879, p. 4) Did Christ came in year 1894? Can you prove that He came?
1889 "If, then, the seventh thousand-year period of earth's history be an epoch specially noted as the period of Christ's reign, we shall by showing that it began in 1873, be proving that we are already in it." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 40. 1889) Did Christ reign already?
1902 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand, 1902 edition, p. 99) Did the end of the kingdoms of this world accomplished?
1915 "The present great war in Europe is the beginning of the Armageddon of the Scriptures Rev 19:16-20). It will eventuate in the complete overthrow of all the systems of error which have so long oppressed the people of God and deluded the world. We believe the present war cannot last much longer until revolutions shall break out" (C.T. Russell, Pastor Russell's Sermons, p. 676, Sometime during World War I) Did Armageddon happened?
1920 'Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 89-90) Did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful old prophets came already?
1922 "The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the "time of the end" began in 1799; that the Lord's second presence began in 1874." (The Watchtower, March 1, 1922) Did the Lord Jesus came here already in 1874?

 

[Pegg]

I don't have to. The GB replaces the Messiah. That's good enough for me.

well thats only in your mind.

 

[Pegg]

I quoted from Watchtower. I took nothing out of context. Nor am I cherry picking. This is what your WTS teaches. This is why so many will call JW's false teachers. It says Jesus is mediator for only the anointed. It says Jesus is not mediator for all mankind.

"So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians." Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31

"Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members." Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" (1986) pp.10-11

Looks like your 08 Watchtower contradicts your 79 and 86 Watchtower. This seems to be a Watchtower pattern, always contradicting themselves.

'New Covenant'

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant which is between himself and those who will be in heaven as kings and priests.

 

[Yoshua]

That would be because we do not look on Charles Russell as our "founder". He was one of a group of men, who just before the turn of the 20th century, got together to discuss their common concerns about the teachings of Christendom.
Charles Russell was a man, not a prophet. He was a gifted public speaker and debater, so he often spoke for the group publicly. His companions were not apostles, but also ordinary men who could see that something needed to be done about the state of affairs in God's worship. They had an overwhelming and collective desire to search the scriptures for answers....when they found them, they publicised them and from very small beginnings, a mighty nation grew. They discerned the master's instruction to "preach the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before the "end" of this present system of things. (Matt 24:14)

Then, my word is true. The Watchtower hides the true identity of Charles Taze Russell. You seemed be blinded by the truth that every JW's must look at. There is no Watchtower Society and JW without Charles Taze Russell. Then who do you think founded JW?

Since we believe that the "time of the end" began in 1914 according to the calculations provided by Daniel, it was reasonable to feel that these stirrings about the purity of God's worship would surface just before that time so that he would have a people prepared to do as they were instructed. Cleaning up their worship, they threw out all of Christendom's false doctrines and began the greatest preaching campaign the world has ever seen. We are known all over the world for our preaching. What is Christendom known for?

Daniel prophesied that this 'cleansing, whitening and refining' would take place among Jehovah's people at this time. (Dan 12:4, 9, 10)
We see Charles Russell and his companions as the beginning of that cleansing and refining. Those who refused the cleansing, Daniel said, would understand nothing....they would be granted no insight. "Knowledge" he said would become abundant at this time. Who can deny this?

So we have good reason to believe that "the faithful and wise slave" that Jesus appointed, (Matt 24:45, 46) would be the ones obeying all of his commands....not just the ones they found convenient. We would especially see them preaching in all the earth as Jesus said they would. If you check out jw.org you will see the extent to which we are carrying out that command.

Did the end came to pass in 1914?

No one is "blindly feeding" except those who spread the lies to downgrade JW's without ever knowing them. They want to believe the bad stuff that is said about us....God won't stop them. Look what they said about God's own son!

If you wanted someone to find out what sort of person you are, would ask them to you go to your enemies to gain their knowledge about you? Or would you like them to come to you personally and get a feel for the calibre of your character?
Trawling through the muck posted on the internet is what a lot of people like to do....let them. Jesus told us to expect the same kind of opposition that he got and for doing the same work. (John 15:18-21)

You can join them if you wish...you'll have lots of company. (Matt 7:13,:13, 14)

All of the knowledge of the members were taken from the literature that acts as feeding bottle. Just no one to attempt to seek the truth by himself. Did you seek the word of God by yourself, study and check the literature if it is true/correct ?

 

[JayJayDee]

Hi Jay,

1879 "Christ came in the character of a Bridegroom in 1874.... at the beginning of the Gospel harvest." (Watchtower, Oct 1879, p. 4) Did Christ came in year 1894? Can you prove that He came?
1889 "If, then, the seventh thousand-year period of earth's history be an epoch specially noted as the period of Christ's reign, we shall by showing that it began in 1873, be proving that we are already in it." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 40. 1889) Did Christ reign already?
1902 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand, 1902 edition, p. 99) Did the end of the kingdoms of this world accomplished?
1915 "The present great war in Europe is the beginning of the Armageddon of the Scriptures Rev 19:16-20). It will eventuate in the complete overthrow of all the systems of error which have so long oppressed the people of God and deluded the world. We believe the present war cannot last much longer until revolutions shall break out" (C.T. Russell, Pastor Russell's Sermons, p. 676, Sometime during World War I) Did Armageddon happened?
1920 'Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 89-90) Did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful old prophets came already?
1922 "The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the "time of the end" began in 1799; that the Lord's second presence began in 1874." (The Watchtower, March 1, 1922) Did the Lord Jesus came here already in 1874?

Was there a purpose to this at all? If you have read anything from JW's on this forum you would know that we have progressed from our early ideas about many things. This is all ancient history to us. We do not see these early writings as anything but the stirrings of the spirit in beginning to unravel the truth of God's word. There was much to learn...and much to discard.

Ask about what we believe now and we will tell you. The Watchtower is like our newspaper, it is not a substitute for scripture. Do you read old newspapers and quote something that was said 80 odd years ago as if it is still relevant today?
Progressive understanding of God's word is expected, the closer we get to Jehovah's day of judgment. We know this. (Prov 4:18) The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses have been providing us with things to chew over for a 100 years or more. We have always found the diet interesting and varied. Sometimes the things served were not quite cooked, but we just waited for the clarification that soon followed.

If you have something you wish to discuss please have the courtesy to speak to us without the use of cheap shots or cut and pastes from anti-JW sites. There are enough lazy people posting other people's garbage as it is. I am happy to answer any questions you have but I will not respond to these kinds of posts in the future.

 

[JayJayDee]

Then, my word is true. The Watchtower hides the true identity of Charles Taze Russell. You seemed be blinded by the truth that every JW's must look at. There is no Watchtower Society and JW without Charles Taze Russell. Then who do you think founded JW?

You do understand that the Watchtower is a Bible Society, don't you? We are Jehovah's Witnesses. We use the Watchtower to print our literature. Please understand what it is you are talking about.

What are the roots of your own belief system? Do you know?

Did the end came to pass in 1914?

No...the end did not come in 1914.....as it turns out, it was the beginning, not the end. We got the year right, but not what it meant at that early stage. We understand now. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

All of the knowledge of the members were taken from the literature that acts as feeding bottle.

And who may I ask filled your own feeding bottle. You yourself are a product of your teachers, so who is to say who is right? You have made your choice...I have made mine.

Just no one to attempt to seek the truth by himself. Did you seek the word of God by yourself, study and check the literature if it is true/correct ?

Yes I did...have you? I came out of Christendom so I investigated everything very thoroughly. It's a shame you haven't.