Karma

[Onkara]

I guess what amuses me so much is that I believed in karma for several decades. Then I realized that there is only NOW. In that endless NOW, karma is quite irrelevant.

The problem it seems is many of us cannot maintain ourselves in the NOW, and instead dwell on desires, memories and fantasies...

 

[Nerthus]

I think everyone experiences good and bad on their life. Some more good than others, and vice versa. I dont think this is 'karma', just how the world is.

If there was karma, then why would some people repeatedly do bad, and only receive good, when the good will always receive the bad?

 

[nameless]

karma simply means actions, karma alone dont have any effect(of course has physical effect). What differentiates us from machines is that we have thoughts. These thoughts carries energy and is capable of making changes in reality, various experiments proved it correct, theintentionexperiment.com provides informations on those. When someone is harmed, it is natural for him to create hate thoughts against the other.

 

[nameless]

If there was karma, then why would some people repeatedly do bad, and only receive good

but not peace i guess, repeatedly doing bad itself proves they never got any satisfaction after receiving all those good. What they believes to be 'good' may not be truly good.

when the good will always receive the bad?

Karma mechanism is so complex.....Living wisely is so important for not having bad, not allowing others karma to affect us is one among those.
Another explanation, they had lives before their present one.

 

[Riverwolf]

Karma makes sense? You're serious?

Of course.

 

[YmirGF]

Of course.

Do remember that I believed in Karma for much longer than you have likely been alive. Go ahead. Explain why it makes sense. I'll wait. Take your time.

 

[Riverwolf]

Do remember that I believed in Karma for much longer than you have likely been alive.

So?

Go ahead. Explain why it makes sense. I'll wait. Take your time.

All actions have reactions. Actions that we do have results.

There might be a bit more to it that I haven't fully understood, but as far as I can tell, that's pretty much karma in a nutshell.

 

[atanu]

It depends.

Brahman-Atman-reality is without a second and it is unimaginable that Brahman has eternal karma.

But, who we are? With mind and senses externalised, we are only some appendage of this karma ridden universe and are fully tied to cause-effect chain. Karma and its result is in mental realm and as long as there is notion "I have done this, I am doing this, I will do this", karma is effective.

In reality there is no karma and no illusion and no one seeking salvation. That is what scriptures teach but this body called atanu is yet to experience that.

 

[YmirGF]

So?

All actions have reactions. Actions that we do have results.

There might be a bit more to it that I haven't fully understood, but as far as I can tell, that's pretty much karma in a nutshell.

I really do like you, a lot, Riverwolf, so I'm not going to sit here and yank your chain any more on the matter.

It is because I lived under the notions of karma, longer than you have been alive, that it is a given that I understand the concept far better than you and likely the other posters in this thread. It is also a given that I can explain said concept much more eloquently than has been provided thus far. I did work within the concept for decades, after all. I have also broken through the concept, as it were, so that too should tell you something. Atanu's post holds some keys...

It depends.

Brahman-Atman-reality is without a second and it is unimaginable that Brahman has eternal karma.

Precisely. Oneness is far more "all encompassing" than most people can wrap their head around.

But, who we are? With mind and senses externalized, we are only some appendage of this karma ridden universe and are fully tied to cause-effect chain. Karma and its result is in mental realm and as long as there is notion "I have done this, I am doing this, I will do this", karma is effective.

I appreciate your perspective, Atanu. The thing is, once one realizes the eternal NOW, that ineffable Oneness, karma no longer has a hold... there is only action from that point...

In reality there is no karma and no illusion and no one seeking salvation. That is what scriptures teach but this body called atanu is yet to experience that.

While within the game it is hard to see outside the stadium and into the parking lot.

I'm not quite sure how to put this, it's still early and the brain is still kicking into high gear..

The thing is though, once the Oneness is realized, there is no going back. Karma is vaporized, as it were, as if it never existed. The important point is if it is so easily extinguished why did it have any influence prior to the point of realization? The simple answer is - it doesn't have any effect beyond the obvious - your actions have effects on your experience - so, pay attention to your actions. In short, you are not bound by your actions, but rather, you could experience difficulties with the results of some of your actions. Again, pay attention to what you do AND think. If you pretend that every action may be your last action on Earth, you will begin to pay much closer attention to the effects of your actions. It is in this way that "karma" is meant more as a guideline for the unrealized, than it is meant as a concrete reality in an of itself.

I hope that makes sense to some of you. Now if you will forgive me, I have to round up a cup of coffee...

 

[Onkara]

Feel free to explain Karma and why you negate it, YmirGF
I am not here to heckle but to get past my own limits of understanding too.

 

[atanu]

Precisely. Oneness is far more "all encompassing" than most people can wrap their head around.
I appreciate your perspective, Atanu. The thing is, once one realizes the eternal NOW, that ineffable Oneness, karma no longer has a hold... there is only action from that point...

While within the game it is hard to see outside the stadium and into the parking lot.

I'm not quite sure how to put this, it's still early and the brain is still kicking into high gear..

The thing is though, once the Oneness is realized, there is no going back. Karma is vaporized, as it were, as it it never existed. The important point is if it is so easily extinguished why did it have any influence prior to the point of realization? The simple answer is - it doesn't have any effect beyond the obvious - your actions have effects on your experience - so, pay attention to your actions. In short, you are not bound by your actions, but rather, you could experience difficulties with the results of some of your actions. Again, pay attention to what you do AND think. If you pretend that every action may be your last action on Earth, you will begin to pay much closer attention to the effects of your actions. It is in this way that "karma" is meant more as a guideline for the unrealized, than it is meant as a concrete reality in an of itself.

I hope that makes sense to some of you. Now if you will forgive me, I have to round up a cup of coffee...

Great post, YmirGF.

I agree to whole of this. No diagreements. For me at least however, pain is still very active. Karma arises because of false association of oneself with happening in Mind (Nature). It is said that Purusha immersed in Prakriti enjoys fruits of karma. Purusha that is non-immersed is taintless.

And that in truth Purusha is the indivisible reality and ever present.

 

[PolyHedral]

The hindu version of karma cannot possibly be a law of the universe as currently studied, for the very simple reason that it is too conveniently scoped. After all, in reality, a human is not a unit; a human is constructed from billions and billions of cells, all working together.

It is also too abstract. The very concept of whether something is right or wrong, even in the context of a clear goal, requires an immense amount of abstract processing. Any entity capable of doing that processing will have human-scale intelligence, if not greater. I'm aware that there is a concept of disembodied intelligence attached to the universe in Hinduism, but this misses the mark, because that intelligence would not be conscious. There would be nothing for it to call "I".

Also, the concept of morality breaks down in the case where all the events of someone's life are available to you, for the reason you can see all the influences behind any given decision.

 

[atanu]

The hindu version of karma cannot possibly be a law of the universe as currently studied, for the very simple reason that it is too conveniently scoped. After all, in reality, a human is not a unit; a human is constructed from billions and billions of cells, all working together.

I do not know why you say so. An individual is composed of many aggregates and yet the mind functions as one and it carries bad and good impressions. In natural science, we talk of action-reaction and similar but including the mental realm is the karma concept. If a person does a wrong thing, the conscience will ensure that the negativity is expressed. Some people have very little conscience and seem to be impervious. They are called asuras (demons) as opposed to devas (divine beings). Even asuras meet their match in other asuras and situations. Nothing external makes the karma fruit fructify. It is one's own mind.

Finally, like rivers come back and join the ocean, all minds are destined to return - cleansed, when the perfect experience of one-ness is never forgotten and then karma holds no meaning. One is not the mind, wherein action-reaction play. One is the consciousness-awareness wherein so-called mind sprouts as bundle of thought.

 

[PolyHedral]

An individual is composed of many aggregates and yet the mind functions as one and it carries bad and good impressions.

The parts of the mind available to conscious "you" acts as one, would be more accurate IMO. AFAIK, the mind does an awful lot of multi-tasking. For instance, maintaining balance, beating the heart, breathing. Also, other parts of the body will "order" the brain to do something if there's a problem; it's immensely hard to ignore hunger, for instance. It is also nigh-impossible to ignore pain if you're not expecting it.

In natural science, we talk of action-reaction and similar but including the mental realm is the karma concept.

Apart from the ungrammar of this sentence, I'd say that once you even touch the "mental realm", you are miles and miles above the laws of the universe. You aren't looking at any sort of universal law at that scale; you'd be looking at side-effects of side-effects of side-effects.

If a person does a wrong thing, the conscience will ensure that the negativity is expressed. Some people have very little conscience and seem to be impervious.

The first sentence seems to imply that the conscience is somehow disconnected from the person, and exists as a quasi-separate thing. The second sentence treats the conscience as a quantity someone can posses, which seems to contradict the first part. Is a conscience external from me, or not? (IMO, it is merely a meme. It has no existence of its own.)

Finally, like rivers come back and join the ocean, all minds are destined to return - cleansed, when the perfect experience of one-ness is never forgotten and then karma holds no meaning. One is not the mind, wherein action-reaction play. One is the consciousness-awareness wherein so-called mind sprouts as bundle of thought.

What about non-human minds? Some of the computers, e.g. in the stock market, are incredibly intelligent, as machines go. You could even be more philosophical and call various superhuman structures "minds," like the /b/ collective.

 

[atanu]

Apart from the ungrammar of this sentence, I'd say that once you even touch the "mental realm", you are miles and miles above the laws of the universe. You aren't looking at any sort of universal law at that scale; you'd be looking at side-effects of side-effects of side-effects.

Ya. The sentence was bad. Bad. As per knowledge of Thatness (tattva), mind is material - a kind of mirror.

The first sentence seems to imply that the conscience is somehow disconnected from the person, and exists as a quasi-separate thing. The second sentence treats the conscience as a quantity someone can posses, which seems to contradict the first part. Is a conscience external from me, or not? (IMO, it is merely a meme. It has no existence of its own.)

Conscience is not disconnected and is not a separate entity. However, we all know the pangs of conscience. And we also know strong and weak pangs. So, it is not a quantity as in conventional terms. But it is veiled to more or less extents in different individuals.

 

[PolyHedral]

I'd argue that it doesn't exist at all in some, e.g. sociopathic individuals.

 

[YmirGF]

I'd argue that it doesn't exist at all in some, e.g. sociopathic individuals.

That certainly is well documented.

 

[atanu]

I'd argue that it doesn't exist at all in some, e.g. sociopathic individuals.

I beg to differ.

 

[PolyHedral]

That certainly is well documented.

I don't suppose you have those documents handy?

 

[Otherright]

The hindu version of karma cannot possibly be a law of the universe as currently studied, for the very simple reason that it is too conveniently scoped. After all, in reality, a human is not a unit; a human is constructed from billions and billions of cells, all working together.

Why does that not make a human a unit? A cell is composed of smaller parts. Does that mean that cells aren't units?