Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy

[sojourner]

that is when you knock on a strangers door and ask if they have any food you could eat. Although it might be a better idea to do that instead of eating at Arby's at the first place.

...making them work to feed you. Not very Xian of you...

 

[sojourner]

I have made a point not to mention what day the Sabbath day is on because it starts a whole other argument. The purpose of me starting this thread was to discuss/ debate what a person does on the Sabbath day, not to debate the day the Sabbath day is. If you want to debate the day I can start a thread on it if you want.

Originally, my best guess is that when the commandment was begun, most people were subsistence farmers, and had to work long, long hours just to raise enough to feed themselves, plus whatever they needed to pay "tribute" to the ruler. The Sabbath was set aside as a day when they didn't have to work so hard -- a vacation. When the culture shifted from subsistence farming to more commercial concerns, the law shifted, as well. I don't think the Sabbath has anything to do with work per se, so much as it does the "holy" part -- the setting aside of one day to focus on God.

 

[Shermana]

Originally, my best guess is that when the commandment was begun, most people were subsistence farmers, and had to work long, long hours just to raise enough to feed themselves, plus whatever they needed to pay "tribute" to the ruler. The Sabbath was set aside as a day when they didn't have to work so hard -- a vacation. When the culture shifted from subsistence farming to more commercial concerns, the law shifted, as well. I don't think the Sabbath has anything to do with work per se, so much as it does the "holy" part -- the setting aside of one day to focus on God.

So when it says "You shall do no labor" you think that was added later?

 

[Blackdog22]

The laws given to a physical, carnal, and stubborn nation were to regulate physical conditions requiring immediate physical penalties (Pro 13:24). The OT makes a clear distinction between willful or deliberate sin and inadvertent sins. After discussing the procedure for obtaining forgiveness for inadvertent sins in Numbers 15:22-29, the author adds, "But anyone who sins defiantly, … that person must be cut off from his people" (Num 15:30). The example you present is of a person who gathered wood on the sabbath, presumably because his fire was going out and he had neglected to gather enough wood the previous day. Surely this was a small act, unlike murder or even theft. But it was also clear that he had consciously gone out to do work on the sabbath and was not ignorant of the law against work on that day. It was a deliberate sin.

Okay, so the man was murdered, brutally, for not picking up enough wood the day before and thus forced to freeze otherwise, but....(see below)



I

n contrast, Christ and his disciples were simply satisfying immediate hunger on the Sabbath which is not a sin. He pointed out it is not wrong to satisfy immediate hunger on the Sabbath by citing David’s example of eating the show bread from the Temple (I Sam. 21:6)

The disciples not picking up enough food from the day before to satisfy their hunger on the Sabbath was fine? So hunger trumps freezing I guess? Can't you die from freezing and uh, when has anyone died from not eating for one day? Fasting is a common ritual in the Bible. I still don't see why they weren't brutally murdered by the Pharisees. They clearly saw a problem with working to feed yourself on the sabbath, they must of thought this for some reason, yes? perhaps the Pharisees had better morals than God himself?

His character does not change but His manner in dealing with people at different times under a variety of circumstances do. The administration of death, of which you speak, was instituted to show Israel the result of wrong conduct. It was eliminated (2 Co 3:7-11) as part of the law code which was “added because of transgressions” only to last "till the seed (Christ) should come"(Gal 3:19)

Yes, but was that right? Do you think we should murder people for not following petty, made up, rules for a time? What if God decided that the grace period was over, he has changed his mind before, would you be one of the people in line stoning an old lady for working at Lowes'? If not, why not?

 

[sojourner]

So when it says "You shall do no labor" you think that was added later?

Read the post again.

 

[Shermana]

Originally, my best guess is that when the commandment was begun, most people were subsistence farmers, and had to work long, long hours just to raise enough to feed themselves, plus whatever they needed to pay "tribute" to the ruler. The Sabbath was set aside as a day when they didn't have to work so hard -- a vacation. When the culture shifted from subsistence farming to more commercial concerns, the law shifted, as well. I don't think the Sabbath has anything to do with work per se, so much as it does the "holy" part -- the setting aside of one day to focus on God.

I did, I am sure any reader can conclude that you are implying this came later as "the law shifted". So I guess you did say that this came later.

If you say that it has nothing to do with work, then you are in fact saying that the part that says "Thou shalt not labor" must have been a later addition. There is no scholarly evidence for this, especially now that the "P" source has been debunked by the new Israeli software.

 

[Jacksnyte]

Not being of the Abrahamic persuasion, I see no problem with doing whatever you feel inclined to do on the Sabbath. I have to wonder, though, why does Christendom celebrate the first day of the week as the Sabbath, when the actual sabbath of the Hebrew faith (from whence Christianity sprang) is the seventh day?

 

[james2ko]

Okay, so the man was murdered, brutally, for not picking up enough wood the day before and thus forced to freeze otherwise, but....(see below)The disciples not picking up enough food from the day before to satisfy their hunger on the Sabbath was fine? So hunger trumps freezing I guess?

1. There isn't enough information of the behind-the-scenes circumstances for us to make heads or tails of it. For all we know, he could have disobeyed God many times before and this was the last straw:

Rom 9:22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show His anger and His power, He is very patient with those on whom His anger falls, who are destined for destruction.​

They clearly saw a problem with working to feed yourself on the sabbath, they must of thought this for some reason, yes?[b/[/u] perhaps the Pharisees had better morals than God himself?[/b][/u]

2. Better morals??? By the same guys who claimed Christ broke the Sabbath for healing someone on it?? The same men He called "hypocrites" and "blind guides", "who were full of extortion and excess," who were like "whitewashed tombs, which appeared beautiful outward, but...within [were] full of dead mens bones, and all uncleanness" (Matt 23:21, 23-27) The same guys who felt no guilt in giving Judas money to betray an innocent man, but when Judas returned the money, they couldn't accept it because it was wrong to accept money used to pay for a murder????? (Mat 27:6) :areyoucra

Can't you die from freezing and uh, when has anyone died from not eating for one day? Fasting is a common ritual in the Bible. I still don't see why they weren't brutally murdered by the Pharisees.

3. They didn't kill them because the Pharisees knew deep down, Christ had a point when He pointed out David's example.

Yes, but was that right?

4. According to God's reckoning, yes.

Isa 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.​

But not to the carnal mind:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.​

Do you think we should murder people for not following petty, made up, rules for a time?

5. We shouldn't..But the one who gave us life can. Sin causes misery to ourselves and others. Why not mercifully put a sinner out of their misery now to keep them from causing further misery to themselves and/or others later? Especially if God is going to resurrect them later back to physical life under more favorable conditions. And yes even a seemingly minor infraction is still sin--transgressing God's law. God knows humans are progressive beings. Less serious sins eventually lead to more serious sins and quickly infect others.

What if God decided that the grace period was over, he has changed his mind before, would you be one of the people in line stoning an old lady for working at Lowes'? If not, why not?

6. What if scenarios are fallacies in disguise.

 

[averageJOE]

...making them work to feed you. Not very Xian of you...

That seems to be the only solution to "keeping the sabbath holy".

 

[Katzpur]

That seems to be the only solution to "keeping the sabbath holy".

Fanatics always see things in just black and white. And I'm referring to fanatics on both ends of the spectrum.

 

[averageJOE]

Fanatics always see things in just black and white. And I'm referring to fanatics on both ends of the spectrum.

Do you consider me a fanatic?

 

[Katzpur]

Do you consider me a fanatic?

I wouldn't say that. I don't know you well enough to make that assessment. The idea that its impossible to keep the Sabbath holy without going to some pretty dramatic extremes, though, seemed kind of exaggerated to me. I try to keep the Sabbath holy myself, but it's not through any kind of super-legalistic means.

 

[sojourner]

I did, I am sure any reader can conclude that you are implying this came later as "the law shifted". So I guess you did say that this came later.

If you say that it has nothing to do with work, then you are in fact saying that the part that says "Thou shalt not labor" must have been a later addition. There is no scholarly evidence for this, especially now that the "P" source has been debunked by the new Israeli software.

What I said was that it didn't have anything to do with work, per se. It was more about creating time to focus on God. I don't think it was until later that the "work" aspect became important in so picayune a way.

 

[Shermana]

What I said was that it didn't have anything to do with work, per se. It was more about creating time to focus on God. I don't think it was until later that the "work" aspect became important in so picayune a way.

Okay, so then you believe that the "Thou shalt do no labor" was not in the original then. Like I said, there's no scholarly evidence that the Sabbath was a later development.

 

[averageJOE]

I wouldn't say that. I don't know you well enough to make that assessment. The idea that its impossible to keep the Sabbath holy without going to some pretty dramatic extremes, though, seemed kind of exaggerated to me. I try to keep the Sabbath holy myself, but it's not through any kind of super-legalistic means.

Gotcha. My comments were more pointed at the suggestions of quitting your job that makes you work on Sundays and asking your neighbor to feed you in order to keep the sabbath holy. Two suggestuions I find completly unrealistic. I like your comment on post #14.

 

[sojourner]

Okay, so then you believe that the "Thou shalt do no labor" was not in the original then. Like I said, there's no scholarly evidence that the Sabbath was a later development.

Read the post.