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Khizr Khan at the DNC

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
So you believe he harbours a secret agenda to turn America into a Caliphate?

I'm still not quite sure why you believe a Muslim can't be loyal to their country. Do you believe all Turks and Egyptians who profess loyalty to their country are lying?

An individual can be loyal, AND it's not logical to assume that by default. It goes against the basics of the ideology to declare "undivided loyalty" to a secular state.

As far as Egypt goes, well, Sharia is a part of Egypt's legal system. Turkey, well Turkey deserves it's own discussion probably, but I think I'm on safe ground saying that Islam plays a LARGE part in Turkey's government, even if it's not *technically* called Sharia.
 
An individual can be loyal, AND it's not logical to assume that by default. It goes against the basics of the ideology to declare "undivided loyalty" to a secular state.

You blind yourself to reality by obsessing over a 'parsimonious' reading of a text as being the be all and end all.

You like polls, and a poll showed 44% of US Muslims supported same sex marriage. I'm going to assume that at least 7% of those who didn't support it are not active advocates of theocracy as there is presumably some middle ground between pro gay marriage and theocracy.

This would mean that a majority of US Muslims are not secret agents for a Caliphate, and those Muslims who go on stage with the constitution in hand and have children who join the military are fairly likely to be part of this majority.

Unless you retreat into an ivory tower of normative theology, you would have to take into account many other factors before accusing any individual Muslim of lying because they don't seem to match with what you have decided they should believe.

You aren't assuming it by 'default', you are looking at actual evidence, rather than a reductionist assumption.


As far as Egypt goes, well, Sharia is a part of Egypt's legal system. Turkey, well Turkey deserves it's own discussion probably, but I think I'm on safe ground saying that Islam plays a LARGE part in Turkey's government, even if it's not *technically* called Sharia.

A 'parsimonious' reading of scripture would suggest that loyalty to any nation state is haram, Sharia law or otherwise. You need to be consistent.

Also, in Egypt many were against the Muslim brotherhood's power grab. Surely this should have been their dream come true?

Until recently Turkey was ultra secular to the point where you couldn't go to university in a hijab. Were Turks not loyal to their country then? Even now society is divided down the middle between the Islamists and the secularists.

All over the world you can see hundreds of millions of Muslims who don't follow a 'parsimonious' reading of scripture. Yet you argue that we should assume all of them are lying if they profess loyalty to their country, regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

Do you believe that Mr Khan's son was loyal to America btw, or would this be 'misleading'?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Augustus,

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth here. Perhaps this thread has run its course? I'm not interested in having to correct the false accusations you're making.
 
Augustus,

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth here. Perhaps this thread has run its course? I'm not interested in having to correct the false accusations you're making.

Sorry, didn't mean to misrepresent you.

I just feel it is the implication of what you have been arguing by not taking into account additional evidence regarding the beliefs of individuals.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hey Augustus,

No doubt - parts of this discussion can be interpreted different ways. In the end, I would be thrilled if a group of Muslims created a non-Sharia, secular denomination of Islam. To me this would be more honest and respectful than to leave the issue undefined, and easily misunderstood. And I think Confucius would agree :)

This is really the core of my argument, no other extrapolations.
 
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