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khs

En'me

RightBehindEveryoneElse
Namaste,

I have been interested in the topic of śākhās for quite some time now and I'd like to know more!

First of all, I think śākhās were groups of people that specialized in understanding certain branches of one of the four védas. As usual when it comes to védas, I'm probably dead wrong haha.

If the above guess is correct, why are they not here with us any longer?


Thank you,
Aum.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
Shakha-s are Hindu theological schools of thought (aka: recensions) that specialize in the vedAnga of a certain Veda.

There are quite a few of them left, functioning well, even though they are highly, vehemently outnumbered by the mainstream schools/sampradAya-s.

They are esoterically exclusive, and for a good reason - especially for preservation purposes. Thus, they are rarely ever in the spotlight.
 
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En'me

RightBehindEveryoneElse
Oh, I see. Thank you for answering sir Aupmanyav and MV.

So, I'm wondering... if the shakha's are still there, not all of them, but some (majority? Less, more?) why are there so many different interpretations attempting to understand vedas (other than those interpretations that try to prove the views of their selected school of thought to be consistent with the vedas despite contrary evidence)?

I mean, the way I'm understanding this is if there are groups of people that take 12 years to learn how to actually properly read the vedas before studying them, then why are we (the holi polloi) doing our own thing, interepreting everything, most likely incorrectly (MV, you actually know stuff, so you're excluded from us 'muggles' :p)?
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Why do you use 'sir' for me. It is not done in a forum. We as members have equal standing.

The people who study Vedas under a particular Guru will subscribe to his interpretation. Other people with background in different fields will give different interpretations. For example, Bal Gangadhar Tilak had his basic education in Maths, my grandfather was a historian and archaeologist. I am a person of science.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
So, I'm wondering... if the shakha's are still there, not all of them, but some (majority? Less, more?) why are there so many different interpretations attempting to understand vedas (other than those interpretations that try to prove the views of their selected school of thought to be consistent with the vedas despite contrary evidence)?

It's not that there are different interpretations. But, rather, there are different precedences or pramANa-s.

ShAkhA-s have their own exegesis. However, their theological route is similar to adhidaivika which is an analysis of cosmological, ritualistic, psychological factors. The keyword here being ritualistic.

Each shAkhA specializes in a certain Veda. And, there will be many shAkhA-s for one Veda. This does not mean they have different interpretation, but rather their approach to the Shruti is based on various precedences or pramANa-s. This diversity is actually a good thing, because it is in line with the Vedas, especially the Rg-Veda:

The conduction of various rituals and how they are conducted sustains Rta, placing nature around us in equilibrium due to the mystical sounds resonating with it.​

Each various input (i.e., "different interpretations") helps in this.

However, allow me to offer a historical view to explain why there are many shAkhA-s and how that can be confusing.

The phrase known as "Vedic Religion" was never a monolithic entity (hence the various shAkhA-s and approaches). However, all the groups that are of the "Vedic Religion" were of the yajna-dharma. At this time, the Vedas were not written, but rather orally transmitted. Since the medium of a written scripture is now taken out of the equation, we should see various Rishi-s and their shishya-s - which should result in "differences".

...then why are we (the holi polloi) doing our own thing, interepreting everything, most likely incorrectly?

Well here's the thing, Brother En'me:

Many that "study" the Veda, not for theological-reasons but for rather socio-historical reasons, will take an Indological route in understanding them. This is only a historical approach. It is not a Hindu approach. The problem arises when one utilizes an Indological approach to help themselves with a theological perspective. This is definitely not a traditional thing to do, to mix the two. History is awesome, no doubt. But, it's a different playing field. Many, therefore, opt to do their "own thing" most likely interpreting things "incorrectly" or rather of their own accord, probably because they are either harmonizing an Indological approach with what they believe passes for theological, or they don't want to ascribe to the traditional roles of acquiring such knowledge from shAkhA-s and opt for self-study - which would borderline 'arm-chairness', whereas pure Indology and pure theology are rather "hands-on" than 'arm-chair' stuff.​
 

En'me

RightBehindEveryoneElse
Okay... I have pondered on this a bit.

For example, different shakhas interpret vedas like different schools of thought interpret vedanta? Would that be a fair comparision? And there could be two or more shakhas "interpreting" a veda differently? For example, I've read somewhere quite some time ago, that each verse in the vedas can be understood in mutliple ways, for example, at an earhly level, cosmological level and a "spiritual" level (for all I know, that could be hocus-hopus though :p). Would various shakhas deal with those kind of inputs or am I off? Also, would the first shakhas of rigveda disagree with the addition of the second veda samaveda for example? (since the 'vedic religion' was not a monolithic entity)?

Also, now that thing have been put a bit more into contex, I can finally understand what you mean by upanishads defaming shri devas. :D I know one of the upanishads brings shri devas down to "common" objects in our universe (indra = clouds, surya = sun, etc).


Why do you use 'sir' for me. It is not done in a forum. We as members have equal standing.

My apologies then. You are elder to me and I did not feel super-comfortarble with adressing you directly. I'll drop the sir part now, no worries. :p
 
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Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
For example, different shakhas interpret vedas like different schools of thought interpret vedanta? Would that be a fair comparison?

Not definitively, but I would say it is a fair comparison, En'me.

And there could be two or more shakhas "interpreting" a veda differently?

Not "there could be"; there are. The Sama Veda once upon a time had 1000 shAkhA-s.

For example, I've read somewhere quite some time ago, that each verse in the vedas can be understood in mutliple ways, for example, at an earhly level, cosmological level and a "spiritual" level (for all I know, that could be hocus-hopus though :p). Would various shakhas deal with those kind of inputs or am I off?

It's not "hocus pocus". And, you are not off. There are various ways of "interpreting" the Veda-s. This is where vedAnga comes in (re-read my first post in this thread).

Also, would the first shakhas of rigveda disagree with the addition of the second veda samaveda for example? (since the 'vedic religion' was not a monolithic entity)?

There would be no disagreeing trans-shAkhA-wise. A Rg-Vedi-n can't dictate to a Sama-Vedi-n. It would be unthinkable. When a Hotri, Udgatr, Adhvaryu, and a Brahmana sit before a yajna, each of them represent and come from a certain shAkhA.

Also, now that thing have been put a bit more into contex, I can finally understand what you mean by upanishads defaming shri devas. :D I know one of the upanishads brings shri devas down to "common" objects in our universe (indra = clouds, surya = sun, etc).

Just take a look at the recent Advaita-centric postings in the HinduDIR. It's been practically hijacked by Jnana-Kandin-s. Little do they know that those of Karma-Kanda {aka: yours truly} take precedence as per Law of Shruti.
 
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En'me

RightBehindEveryoneElse
मैत्रावरुणिः;3665198 said:
Not definitively, but I would say it is a fair comparison, En'me.

Yeah, sorry if it came off as me trying to desperately stuff vedanta into the conversation, it was just the first thing that came to mind. You know, the mind attempts to understand by building on previous experienced even if it might not be exactly simil-.., yeaaah, you get the point. :eek:

Not "there could be"; there are. The Sama Veda once upon a time had 1000 shAkhA-s.
Let me sit in a corner for a moment while my mind attempts to re-construct itself, because you know, it was blown apart.

It's not "hocus pocus". And, you are not off. There are various ways of "interpreting" the Veda-s. This is where vedAnga comes in (re-read my first post in this thread).
Yeah, yeah. No wonder. Duh. That explains some (as obvious as it may of had been :facepalm:).

There would be no disagreeing trans-shAkhA-wise. A Rg-Vedi-n can't dictate to a Sama-Vedi-n. It would be unthinkable. When a Hotri, Udgatr, Adhvaryu, and a Brahmana sit before a yajna, each of them represent and come from a certain shAkhA.
So shakhas would not have unifying understaning of vedas but not contradictionary either? Especially within one veda.

Just take a look at the recent Advaitaphile postings in the HinduDIR. It's been practically hijacked by Jnana-Kandin-s. Little do they know that those of Karma-Kanda {aka: yours truly} take precedence as per Law of Shruti; but don't worry, I won't be a meanie and party poop their Rahasyavid speculations. ;)
"Advaitaphile", haha. Oh man. But does that mean that karma-kanda and jnana-kanda were meant to work in unison or...? Also, could you elaborate a bit further on what you mean that karma-kanda should take precende as per law of shruti? Are there specific injuctions, how does that work with jnana-kanda, would have jnani's agreed with that, etc.

Okay, and that is the last of my questions... LOL, as if. If you've never exeperienced an avalanche before, I suggest you prepare for one now. This one will be made up out of questions. :D
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
Yeah, sorry if it came off as me trying to desperately stuff vedanta into the conversation, it was just the first thing that came to mind. You know, the mind attempts to understand by building on previous experienced even if it might not be exactly simil-.., yeaaah, you get the point. :eek:

It's all good, my friend! :D

So shakhas would not have unifying understaning of vedas but not contradictionary either? Especially within one veda.

I hope I can be more clear:

One shAkhA per Veda at the yajna-grounds. You won't have a kau****aki-centric (aka: bAshkala) and a aitareya-centric (aka: shAkalya) HotR-s sitting at the same yajna. Not that I know of. It would be awkward. Hehe.

You will have a shAkalya (Rg), jaimIniya (Sama), taittiriya (Krishna-Yajur), and a rare shaunaka (Atharva) if the need arises. But, the first three are more than enough. And, you'll have a brAhmaNa that oversees everything "lead" the "procession" - sometimes, you'll have one or two of the above, sometime you'll have two or four from each of the above. Sometimes you will have just a few from a certain sAma-shAkhA and a few from either a shUkla or kRshNa yajur shAkhA.

It's a very organized process. Such a yajna cannot take place without it being consulted and prepared for - it takes a very long time.

"Advaitaphile", haha. Oh man. But does that mean that karma-kanda and jnana-kanda were meant to work in unison or...?

They can NOT work in unison. It would be the end of things. My Guru-s back in India would have a heart attack. Karma Kanda and Jnana Kanda are separate for a reason. The former is Veda-centric, pro-yajna, while the latter is philosophical-centric, pro-intellectual speculation.

Also, could you elaborate a bit further on what you mean that karma-kanda should take precende as per law of shruti? Are there specific injuctions, how does that work with jnana-kanda, would have jnani's agreed with that, etc.

Since a yajna is the epitome of Rta and Satya, whereas metaphysical speculations are not, since yajna-dharma has been sanctioned by the apaurusheya concept and has been deemed the end all be all of what constitutes as Shrautic, karma-kandin-s have precedence. But, we rarely pull rank. ;) In ancient times, kings would consult karma-kandin-s first if they needed to conduct a mega-yajna. The Jnana-kandin, aka: Rasyavid, would be the last resort.

Okay, and that is the last of my questions... LOL, as if. If you've never exeperienced an avalanche before, I suggest you prepare for one now. This one will be made up out of questions. :D

Go easy on me, por favor. :D
 

Jaskaran Singh

Divosūnupriyaḥ
Also, now that thing have been put a bit more into contex, I can finally understand what you mean by upanishads defaming shri devas. :D I know one of the upanishads brings shri devas down to "common" objects in our universe (indra = clouds, surya = sun, etc).
sUrya/Aditya is the sun god, so of course he would be compared to the sun, also parjanya (often considered a form of indra) is compared to a bull inseminating pR^ithvI/bhUmi within the veda-s themselves, so I don't see how that is a form of defaming...
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
मैत्रावरुणिः;3663172 said:
However, their theological route is similar to adhidaivika which is an analysis of cosmological, ritualistic, psychological factors.
I have heard that at one time there were three routes, adhidaivika (Gods and Goddesses), adhyatmika (spiritual), and adhibhautika (physical). Nairuktas were adhibhautika.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
Nairuktas were adhibhautika.

Etymologists would deal with the physical, this is correct. But, that's just one aspect of Vedanga.

Use Vedanga + gather the "plants" + put into effect = shAkhA in its most basic sense

For example, my shiksha purely consists of kalpa.

brAhmaNa-s + shulba-sUtra-s + shrauta-sUtra-s (even though I am not married, Guru-s said to learn them but I can't ever take part in the yajna-s that are prescribed in them unless I get married) + grhya-sUtra-s + more yajna-related stuff = my life right now (so much reading and practice like making yajna grounds)

The only thing I am missing out on are the PariśishTa-s. They are pretty much the creme-de-la-creme of organizational yajna.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
मैत्रावरुणिः;3665265 said:
.. I can't ever take part in the yajna-s that are prescribed in them unless I get married) + grhya-sUtra-s + more yajna-related stuff = my life right now (so much reading)
Do something about that. :)
 

Jaskaran Singh

Divosūnupriyaḥ
मैत्रावरुणिः;3665265 said:
Etymologists would deal with the physical, this is correct. But, that's just one aspect of Vedanga.

Use Vedanga + gather the "plants" + put into effect = shAkhA in its most basic sense

For example, my shiksha purely consists of kalpa.

brAhmaNa-s + shulba-sUtra-s + shrauta-sUtra-s (even though I am not married, Guru-s said to learn them but I can't ever take part in the yajna-s that are prescribed in them unless I get married) + grhya-sUtra-s + more yajna-related stuff = my life right now (so much reading and practice like making yajna grounds)

The only thing I am missing out on are the ParishTa-s. They are pretty much the creme-de-la-creme of organizational yajna.

You mean parishiShTam, right? A parIShTa is a person...:p
 

Jaskaran Singh

Divosūnupriyaḥ
मैत्रावरुणिः;3665243 said:
They can NOT work in unison. It would be the end of things. My Guru-s back in India would have a heart attack. Karma Kanda and Jnana Kanda are separate for a reason. The former is Veda-centric, pro-yajna, while the latter is philosophical-centric, pro-intellectual speculation.
yAvaddha vA AtmanAdevAn upAste tAvadasmai devAbhavanti atha ya etadevaM vedAham evasAmAsmi mayyetAs sarvAdevatA ityevaM hAsminnetAs sarvAdevatAbhavanti. Sorry, I just couldn't resist...:p
Let me sit in a corner for a moment while my mind attempts to re-construct itself, because you know, it was blown apart.
Sevéda, sevéda (did you see what I did there, you being Slovenian and all?). Yeah, I know, I suck at puns...
 
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