Kim Davis is no longer a hero... :(

[Shadow Wolf]

Norman: Hi Tom, If I am understanding your question correctly I would say no. She was not trying to start a religious movement in Rowan County, She simply was
enforcing her own convictions.

Her personal convictions were being unfairly and unlawfully placed upon others. What she did wasn't standing on convictions, it was subjecting others to her own personal views.

 

[jeager106]

And violating her oath of office, the oath to do her job without
judging anyone.

 

[ChristineES]

Here is where I believe she did drew attention deliberately. When she stood on that podium with pro-religious politicians and rallied with her supporters for religious freedom. If she didn't want attention, then she shouldn't have stepped up to that podium.

I don't understand your last line: "It tried to make an "example" out of her but it rather backfired on them."

Could you please detail this a bit more?

All my last line meant was that the media failed to make an example of her. She is as forgotten right now as any other old news. People won't remember her, won't remember her name or anything else ten years from now.

 

[Norman]

This is nonsense because she refused to resign from a job that REQUIRES her to put the law above her religious beliefs. Same-sex couples have a RIGHT in the US now to get marriage licenses. She is responsible to provide them, no matter how she feels about them. If she is unable to, then she has the choice to resign. It has nothing to do with silencing objections to same-sex marriage. That is nothing but a pitiful straw-man. The issue I have is that she refused to do the job that she swore (before God) to do and she refused to uphold the Constitution of the United States, which she made also swore to uphold.

Norman: Hi leibowde84, no straw man here and she doesn't have to resign. Also, all I am reading in your post is just regurgitated rhetoric about same sex marriage. In my first post to you, I cited what Ms. Davis understood when she was sworn into her position. You need to look at both sides as I mentioned in my first post to you. In the wake of this case other things emerge. Attorney Gannam cited Kentucky's Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The 2013 law prohibits the state government from substantially burdening a person's freedom of religion unless the government both proves it has a compelling interest in doing so and has used the least restrictive means to do it. A question would be; did Judge David Bunning use the least restrictive mean (s) by finding her in contempt of court and putting Ms. Davis in jail? Ms. Davis is a public official and impeachment probably would not get enough votes because of strong Christians who think the same way she does. Ms. Davis legal counsel suggested "We've asked for a simple solution -- get her name and authority off the certificate. The judge could order that," Staver said. (Mat Staver, Kim Davis Legal Counsel)

The Kentucky Equality Federation, an agency that supports what it calls "marriage equality," issued a plea Saturday for Kentucky Governor Steve Beshear to call a special session of the General Assembly to pursue impeachment of Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis, however that would mean that they come back into session and would cost thousand’s of dollars of tax payer’s money. "If (Davis' deputies) can issue licenses under someone else's authority ... Kim Davis would not stand in the way of that," one of her attorneys, Roger Gannam, told CNN's "New Day" on Tuesday.

Going down memory lane for a moment when members of Congress took that document, the document of all documents and read it aloud from the steps of Independence Hall, proclaiming it to the city of Philadelphia, after which the Liberty Bell was rung. Now, instructively, the inscription around the top of that bell was Leviticus 25:10 “proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof." Do you think that Kim Davis was worshiping the dictate of her own conscience in the spirit of what is cited on the bell? What about the “liberty” of exercising her freedom of religion? Going down memory lane and to acknowledge this, you see the signature right from the constitution, our currency “In God we Trust.” An elected president must take the oath of office with the Holy Bible as Kim Davis had to. The National Day of Prayer is an annual day of observance held on the first Thursday of May, designated by the United States Congress. The 2015 NDP was held on May-7-2015. The 2016 NDP will be held on May-5-2016. Has this all been forgotten what is on our calendars of today? Tolerance does not require abandoning one’s standards or one’s opinions on political or public policy choices. Tolerance is a way of reacting to diversity, not a command to insulate it from examination. John Adams had it right from the start about our Constitution, “Moral and Religious People.” Please take more time to read into this whole story and about my facts as I have presented in this post?

Citation:
446.350 Prohibition upon government substantially burdening freedom of religion -- Showing of compelling governmental interest -- Description of "burden." Government shall not substantially burden a person's freedom of religion. The right to act or refuse to act in a manner motivated by a sincerely held religious belief may not be substantially burdened unless the government proves by clear and convincing evidence that it has a compelling governmental interest in infringing the specific act or refusal to act and has used the least restrictive means to further that interest. A "burden" shall include indirect burdens such as withholding benefits, assessing penalties, or an exclusion from programs or access to facilities. Effective: June 25, 2013 History: Created 2013 Ky. Acts ch. 111, sec. 1, effective June 25, 2013.

Citation: [1] "36 U.S.C. § 119 : US Code – Section 119: National Day of Prayer".

Citation: “Our Constitution” said John Adams (first vice-president and second president); “was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other” (John R. Howe, Jr. The Changing Political Thought of John Adams, Princeton University Press, 1966, P. 185).

Source:

http://www.modernghana.com/news/644004/1/kim-davis-america-and-heroism-2.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/day_pray.htm

http://www.edition.cnn.com/2015/09/08/politics/kim-davis-same-sex-marriage-kentucky/index.html

https://www.liberty.edu/media/9980/..._and_Motion_for_Injunction_Pending_Appeal.pdf

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=42395

 

[leibowde84]

Norman: Hi leibowde84, no straw man here and she doesn't have to resign. Also, all I am reading in your post is just regurgitated rhetoric about same sex marriage. In my first post to you, I cited what Ms. Davis understood when she was sworn into her position. You need to look at both sides as I mentioned in my first post to you. In the wake of this case other things emerge. Attorney Gannam cited Kentucky's Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The 2013 law prohibits the state government from substantially burdening a person's freedom of religion unless the government both proves it has a compelling interest in doing so and has used the least restrictive means to do it. A question would be; did Judge David Bunning use the least restrictive mean (s) by finding her in contempt of court and putting Ms. Davis in jail? Ms. Davis is a public official and impeachment probably would not get enough votes because of strong Christians who think the same way she does. Ms. Davis legal counsel suggested "We've asked for a simple solution -- get her name and authority off the certificate. The judge could order that," Staver said. (Mat Staver, Kim Davis Legal Counsel)

The Kentucky Equality Federation, an agency that supports what it calls "marriage equality," issued a plea Saturday for Kentucky Governor Steve Beshear to call a special session of the General Assembly to pursue impeachment of Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis, however that would mean that they come back into session and would cost thousand’s of dollars of tax payer’s money. "If (Davis' deputies) can issue licenses under someone else's authority ... Kim Davis would not stand in the way of that," one of her attorneys, Roger Gannam, told CNN's "New Day" on Tuesday.

Going down memory lane for a moment when members of Congress took that document, the document of all documents and read it aloud from the steps of Independence Hall, proclaiming it to the city of Philadelphia, after which the Liberty Bell was rung. Now, instructively, the inscription around the top of that bell was Leviticus 25:10 “proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof." Do you think that Kim Davis was worshiping the dictate of her own conscience in the spirit of what is cited on the bell? What about the “liberty” of exercising her freedom of religion? Going down memory lane and to acknowledge this, you see the signature right from the constitution, our currency “In God we Trust.” An elected president must take the oath of office with the Holy Bible as Kim Davis had to. The National Day of Prayer is an annual day of observance held on the first Thursday of May, designated by the United States Congress. The 2015 NDP was held on May-7-2015. The 2016 NDP will be held on May-5-2016. Has this all been forgotten what is on our calendars of today? Tolerance does not require abandoning one’s standards or one’s opinions on political or public policy choices. Tolerance is a way of reacting to diversity, not a command to insulate it from examination. John Adams had it right from the start about our Constitution, “Moral and Religious People.” Please take more time to read into this whole story and about my facts as I have presented in this post?

Citation:
446.350 Prohibition upon government substantially burdening freedom of religion -- Showing of compelling governmental interest -- Description of "burden." Government shall not substantially burden a person's freedom of religion. The right to act or refuse to act in a manner motivated by a sincerely held religious belief may not be substantially burdened unless the government proves by clear and convincing evidence that it has a compelling governmental interest in infringing the specific act or refusal to act and has used the least restrictive means to further that interest. A "burden" shall include indirect burdens such as withholding benefits, assessing penalties, or an exclusion from programs or access to facilities. Effective: June 25, 2013 History: Created 2013 Ky. Acts ch. 111, sec. 1, effective June 25, 2013.

Citation: [1] "36 U.S.C. § 119 : US Code – Section 119: National Day of Prayer".

Citation: “Our Constitution” said John Adams (first vice-president and second president); “was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other” (John R. Howe, Jr. The Changing Political Thought of John Adams, Princeton University Press, 1966, P. 185).

Source:

http://www.modernghana.com/news/644004/1/kim-davis-america-and-heroism-2.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/day_pray.htm

http://www.edition.cnn.com/2015/09/08/politics/kim-davis-same-sex-marriage-kentucky/index.html

https://www.liberty.edu/media/9980/..._and_Motion_for_Injunction_Pending_Appeal.pdf

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=42395

But doesn't this ignore that according to the constitution, federal law and scotus decisions trump any state laws?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm so sick of seeing Davis' ugly face on my TV screen. She is such a horrible hypocrite. She's been divorced 3 times and is on her 4th marriage. The only time Jesus said anything about marriage or romantic relationships was when He told straight people they're not allowed to get divorced. Guess her *** must've skipped over that one!

 

[leibowde84]

I'm so sick of seeing Davis' ugly face on my TV screen. She is such a horrible hypocrite. She's been divorced 3 times and is on her 4th marriage. The only time Jesus said anything about marriage or romantic relationships was when He told straight people they're not allowed to get divorced. Guess her *** must've skipped over that one!

This = truth!!

 

[Norman]

You are mistaking my question.
You said she should uphold "the moral law of God". She is (or was) upholding a version that you agree with.

Norman: Yes, I am against same sex marriage as Ms. Davis is.

I'm asking if you would still support her if she were upholding a law you did not agree with.

Norman: Yes I would

I.used the example of a Muslim and Sharia because Sharia is well known for conflicting with the US Constitution and USA views on human rights. But hundreds of millions do consider it the moral law of God.

Norman: First of all I would quote the Constitution, Article VI: “No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." For example; I never voted for a Presedent based on there religious beliefs. Kim Davis identifies as an “Apostolic Christian” and attends “Solid Rock Apostolic Church in Morehead, Kentucky. One of their beliefs is the “Trinity” of which I do not embrace. If Kim Davis was a Muslim along with her belief of Sharia law would have no baring on my voting for her. No more than I would a Jew, Catholic or any other religion. If I was running for public office I would hope that people would not care if I was a Mormon.

So I am asking if you would still support her taking a stand against US law, in favor of the moral laws of God, if her religion was different from yours.
Tom

Norman: If we are talking about the job that Kim Davis has, any Muslim would have to through the same process of trying to get hired, uphold the Constitution and so on. Am I to not vote
for a Catholic because there leaders moved around priest's who molested boys and thought that they were above the laws of the land. In closing, since you are hooked on using a Muslim
for your example, I would vote based on there political position that they are seeking not there religion or Sharia law.

 

[Norman]

Her personal convictions were being unfairly and unlawfully placed upon others. What she did wasn't standing on convictions, it was subjecting others to her own personal views.

Norman: In what way (s).

 

[Norman]

I'm so sick of seeing Davis' ugly face on my TV screen. She is such a horrible hypocrite. She's been divorced 3 times and is on her 4th marriage. The only time Jesus said anything about marriage or romantic relationships was when He told straight people they're not allowed to get divorced. Guess her *** must've skipped over that one!

Norman: That is strange coming from you, doesn't your Church have enough problems of there own to be casting stones at any one else? I am tired of hearing about a major problem in your Church that has been in the news for years now.

 

[fantome profane]

Norman: In what way (s).

Sometimes I really wonder if people are talking about the same story. You seem to be missing the entire point of what happened.

She was preventing people from getting married. She was not just simply refusing to issue the marriage licenses herself, she was also preventing anybody else in her office from doing it. Before she was sent to jail she was offered just such a compromise where she would not be required to do anything herself that violated here beliefs, but she would have to allow her deputy clerks to issue the licenses. She refused that. It was not enough for her to be allowed to follow her own faith, she needed to impose it on others. She was unfairly and illegally stopping people from getting married.

After a week in jail this compromise seemed to look better to her. Although she never actually agreed to it, it is what she is doing.

 

[Norman]

Such a shame Davis' actions do not fall under this category

Norman: I doubt you even read or followed this story and your post shows it.

because she abused her government position to deny others their legally mandated rights, she forced people into a position where they had to expend time & money engaging her in a lawsuit she could never have won because her actions were unquestionably illegal, and she chose to serve her god by breaking an oath she had sworn to him on the holy book of her own religion.

Norman: Could you post more details about the lawsuit?

Hardly someone to be admired..

Norman: Mohamed Ali is my Muslim hero. Spider man is my hero. Do you have any hero's Scotsman or were you deprived?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Norman: In what way (s).

Because by her choosing to violate the law, she denied marriage certificates to couples who are legally entitled them, and because she did this because of her religious convictions, she was holding others to her own personal religious standards.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Norman: I doubt you even read or followed this story and your post shows it.

So because you can't address the substance of my arguments you're resorting to useless hyperbole.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Norman: That is strange coming from you, doesn't your Church have enough problems of there own to be casting stones at any one else? I am tired of hearing about a major problem in your Church that has been in the news for years now.

He is the one making the argument against Davis, not his church...

That dodge isn't going to work.

 

[leibowde84]

Norman: In what way (s).

She was the only one able to issue marriage licenses. Homosexuals have a right to marry in the US in every state according to the constitution and the SCOTUS. When Kim Davis refused to provide marriage licenses die to he subjective religious beliefs, she made it impossible for citizens in her state to get the marriage licenses they were entitled to.

If she had a problem with the SCOTUS decision, she should have resigned right away.

 

[columbus]

@Norman

Tom: I'm asking if you would still support her if she were upholding a law you did not agree with.

Norman: Yes I would

I am having a little trouble believing that is an accurate answer to my question.

Government officials have a great deal of power and aren't much accountable between elections. But like anyone else they are entitled to whatever religious beliefs and prohibitions.
Some of those prohibitions include:
Blood transfusions
Pork
Birth control
Doing business on the Sabbath

Are you saying that a government official should enforce their religious beliefs on everyone in the district? Even people of other religious beliefs? Even if the behavior is legal?
I'm finding it hard to believe that you would be so supportive if it were a religious prohibition you did not find compelling.
Tom

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Norman: That is strange coming from you, doesn't your Church have enough problems of there own to be casting stones at any one else? I am tired of hearing about a major problem in your Church that has been in the news for years now.

What? That comment doesn't even make any sense in context. I'm calling out a hypocrite. Shouldn't you be saying that stuff to Kim Davis, since she obviously has a lot of problems of her own when it comes to marriage?

 

[Norman]

You are mistaking my question.
You said she should uphold "the moral law of God". She is (or was) upholding a version that you agree with

Norman: Yes, I am against same sex marriage as Ms. Davis is.

. I'm asking if you would still support her if she were upholding a law you did not agree with.

Norman: Yes I would.

I.used the example of a Muslim and Sharia because Sharia is well known for conflicting with the US Constitution and USA views on human rights. But hundreds of millions do consider it the moral law of God.
So I am asking if you would still support her taking a stand against US law, in favor of the moral laws of God, if her religion was different from yours.
Tom

Norman: Firs of all I would quote the Constitution, Article VI: “No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." For example; I never voted for a Presedent based on there religious beliefs. Kim Davis identifies as an “Apostolic Christian” and attends “Solid Rock Apostolic Church in Morehead, Kentucky. One of their beliefs is the “Trinity” of which I do not embrace. If Kim Davis was a Muslim along with her belief of Sharia law would have no baring on my voting for her. No more than I would a Jew, Catholic or any other religion. If I was running for public office I would hope that people would not care if I was a Mormon. The fact is and you may not like it is that Kim Davis cannot be fired because she is a public official. She has to be impeached which is not going to happen. Putting her in jail was a bit extreme because the Judge knows that eventually there has to be a compromise.

"Kim Davis has made a good-faith effort to comply with the court's order," Staver said. "The ACLU's motion to again hold Kim Davis in contempt reveals that their interest is not the license but rather a marriage license bearing the name of Kim Davis. They want her scalp to hang on the wall as a trophy." It is not going to happen. Addressing the Des Moines Register’s headline – neither the Supreme Court’s ruling nor Governor Beshear’s executive order are law. Until the Kentucky Legislature passes a law changing how they handle marriage licenses Davis is following the law of Kentucky. Why do people believe the law just magically changes when a court makes a ruling? Go read your Constitution that’s Civics 101. Tom, bring up as many annalogy’s as you want, state your opinion as many times as you want, however, I have stated facts in all three of my Post’s. I hope this answers your question (s).

 

[columbus]

Tom, bring up as many annalogy’s as you want, state your opinion as many times as you want, however, I have stated facts in all three of my Post’s. I hope this answers your question (s).

What I am noticing is that you keep dodging the question I asked.
You did not even quote it this time.

Why would you support a government official forbidding the consumption of pork chops in Kentucky?
Tom