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King David's 'holy' striptease

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
"And David danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod...and as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through the window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord; and she despised him in her heart...and Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel today, who uncovered himself in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself" (2 Samuel 6:14, 16, 20, KJV)

In this passage, king David is described as wearing a linen robe or ephod during a temple ritual involving the Ark of the Covenant, when he suddenly loses it and starts dancing raucously.

He is so overjoyed and caught up in the ecstasy of the moment that his retinue get more than I'm sure they'd bargained for originally: he actually exposes himself in the middle of the sacred dance, whilst he is 'leaping' and gyrating around, letting it 'all hang loose', so to speak - much to the revulsion of his wife Michal, who regards his conduct as both unseemly and uncouth for a monarch.

Biblical translators and commentators have had a field day for millennia over how to properly render these verses. Here's a sampling of the variations on Michal's reproach of her husband for his (accidental?) striptease:


"as he stripped himself in the sight of his maidservants as a common rake exposes himself" (The Bible: An American Translation).

"exposing himself before women...as any loose fellow would expose himself indecently" (A New Translation of the Bible, Moffatt)

"that exposed his person to man and maid...graceless as a common montebank" (The Holy Bible, Knox).

"uncovering himself...to be ogled by the female servants...as some worthless fellow would strip himself" (The Modern Language Bible, Berkeley)

"who let himself be seen uncovered by his servant girls" (The Bible in Basic English)

The Latin Vulgate of St. Jerome, the traditional bible translation of the Catholic Church, states plainly that David was nudatus (naked). Likewise, the word for his 'dancing' or 'hopping' around is saltare /saltatio which is indicative of a "salacious, sensational movement quality" (Miller, 2000; Gruber, 1990) in which the good king, "[engaged] in more of a prance or jig rather than a dignified professional fit for a king...[He] momentarily lifted his robes and, in turn, exposed his nether regions" (Smith, 1995; Juriansz, 2013).

In the fourth century, the early church father St. Ambrose of Milan (died 397 CE) explained:


St. Ambrose of Milan, Letters (1881). pp. 324-354. Letters 51-60.



"But we also find praiseworthy bodily dancing in honor of God, for David danced before the Ark of the Lord. The things which viewed corporeally are unseemly, when viewed in regard to holy religion become venerable, so that they who blame such things will involve their own souls in the net of blame.

Thus Michal, however, the daughter of Saul, saw him dancing and beating a drum and reproves David for his dancing saying, "How is it honorable for the king of Israel to dance naked today in the presence of his maidservants?" And David answered Michal in the presence of the Lord: "Blessed be the Lord...I will make merry in the presence of the Lord and run naked, and I will be lighthearted in your presence, and I will be honored by the maids with whom you called me naked"...

David therefore did not shrink from censure, nor was he ashamed to hear their reproaches for his religious service. Thus, this is a clear lesson that the prophet who beats a drum and dances before the Lord is justified, whereas the one who reproves him is condemned...

The dancing [saltationem] which David practised before the Ark of the Covenant is commended. For everything that is seemly is done for religion, such that we need not be ashamed of a service that tends to the worship and honoring of Christ...

But perhaps it may be said, Was it not then disgraceful for a man to walk wholly uncovered through the people, seeing that he must be met both by men and women? Must not the sight itself have shocked the eyes of all, especially of women? Do not we ourselves generally shrink from looking upon naked men? And are not men's persons concealed by garments that they may not offend the eyes of beholders by an unseemly spectacle?

But what if there was nothing worthy of reproach in the prophet's body? He indeed alluded not to corporeal but to spiritual things; for in his ecstasy of mind he says, not I will hearken what I shall say, but, what the Lord God shall say in me. Nor does he consider whether he is naked or clothed. Again, Adam before his sin was naked, but knew not he was naked, because he was endued with virtue; after he had committed sin he saw that he was naked, and covered himself. Noah was uncovered, but he blushed not, because he was full of gladness and spiritual joy, while he who derided him for being naked, himself remained subject to the disgrace of perpetual baseness. Joseph too, that he might not be basely uncovered, left his garment, and fled away naked; now which of the two was base in this instance, she who kept another's garment, or he who put off his own?"


[Letter LVIII, To Sabinus, Bishop]


Which is to say, in other words, that nude dancing for 'God' could technically be acceptable behaviour and nothing to be ashamed of given the right spiritual intent and state of mind, even as the same church fathers often waxed lyrical about the "obscene gesticulations" of Greco-Roman pantomime artists and athletes who exposed themselves in the buff as part and parcel of the spectacle of their professions.

St. Gregory Nazianzus (365 CE) even went so far as to laud David's dancing as "that swift course of revolution manifold ordained by God [...] a dance to the honor of God, worthy of an Emperor and a Christian", which was his actual advice to the Roman Emperor Julian. "Perform the dances of King David before the ark".

Thus, St. Ambrose and most of his fellow church fathers (Augustine, Tertullian, Procopius) defended David's conduct and took the side of - most uncharacteristically for them, I have to admit - nude sacred dancing for the 'right reasons' as opposed to 'lascivious displays'.

Rabbi Abba b. Kahana (c.275), a Jewish amora or scholar whose aggadic teachings were codified as part of the Gemara, on the other hand portrayed David's dance as a "very sexual kind" of entertainment or spectacle and actually sided with Michal in reproaching David for dancing in such a way (Bemidbar IV.20 (Numbers) in The Midrash vol.5). A number of other Rabbis - and again in contrast to the Patristics who took it at face value to mean David exposed himself - conducted parallel exegesis on this passage using a similar account in 1 Chronicles, in an effort to reduce the dance to a mere: "he turned the front of his foot" and thereby explain away David's nudity as: "he stood on tiptoe, revealing his naked toes".

Needless to say, these verses have proven very controversial for those religious (Christians and Jews) who regard it as divinely inspired. A number of contemporary Evangelicals have in like manner sought to downplay or elide the sensual connotations and exposure of King David ("toes, alright? Its toes! Nothing more"), as the passage can embarrass and scandalise people.

Right, so what is your own religious perspective on nude and possibly sensual dancing? Can it ever be 'holy' or is it always, by default, to be reproached in all contexts? Are you with David or Michal on this?
 
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dianaiad

Well-Known Member
eh....it's a typical case of 'not the act, but the performer.' In other words, such dancing is just fine...it was DAVID, and therefore we have to find excuses. If it had been anybody else (such as the Roman athletes you mention) it would not have been.

I see parallels in modern politics, frankly, and in modern apologetics between faith traditions. Certain actions (such as mob stuff) is considered just ducky when OUR SIDE does it, and horrendous when the other side does.

Personally? I think I stand with Michel, but then I've never personally participated in the Free Methodist or Wesleyan Methodist form of worship. (called by their enemies 'holy rollers'). Ask one of them and I'll bet you get an entirely different answer. ;)
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
"And David danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod...and as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through the window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord; and she despised him in her heart...and Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel today, who uncovered himself in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself" (2 Samuel 6:14, 16, 20, KJV)

In this passage, king David is described as wearing a linen robe or ephod during a temple ritual involving the Ark of the Covenant, when he suddenly loses it and starts dancing raucously.

He is so overjoyed and caught up in the ecstasy of the moment that his retinue get more than I'm sure they'd bargained for originally: he actually exposes himself in the middle of the sacred dance, whilst he is 'leaping' and gyrating around, letting it 'all hang loose', so to speak - much to the revulsion of his wife Michal, who regards his conduct as both unseemly and uncouth for a monarch.

Biblical translators and commentators have had a field day for millennia over how to properly render these verses. Here's a sampling of the variations on Michal's reproach of her husband for his (accidental?) striptease:


"as he stripped himself in the sight of his maidservants as a common rake exposes himself" (The Bible: An American Translation).

"exposing himself before women...as any loose fellow would expose himself indecently" (A New Translation of the Bible, Moffatt).

"that exposed his person to man and maid...graceless as a common montebank" (The Holy Bible, Knox).

"uncovering himself...to be ogled by the female servants...as some worthless fellow would strip himself" (The Modern Language Bible, Berkeley)

"who let himself be seen uncovered by his servant girls" (The Bible in Basic English)

The Latin Vulgate of St. Jerome, the traditional bible translation of the Catholic Church, states plainly that David was nudatus (naked). Likewise, the word for his 'dancing' or 'hopping' around is saltare /saltatio which is indicative of a "salacious, sensational movement quality" (Miller, 2000; Gruber, 1990) in which the good king, "[engaged] in more of a prance or jig rather than a dignified professional fit for a king...[He] momentarily lifted his robes and, in turn, exposed his nether regions" (Smith, 1995; Juriansz, 2013).

In the fourth century, the early church father St. Ambrose of Milan (died 397 CE) explained:


St. Ambrose of Milan, Letters (1881). pp. 324-354. Letters 51-60.



"But we also find praiseworthy bodily dancing in honor of God, for David danced before the Ark of the Lord. The things which viewed corporeally are unseemly, when viewed in regard to holy religion become venerable, so that they who blame such things will involve their own souls in the net of blame.

Thus Michal, however, the daughter of Saul, saw him dancing and beating a drum and reproves David for his dancing saying, "How is it honorable for the king of Israel to dance naked today in the presence of his maidservants?" And David answered Michal in the presence of the Lord: "Blessed be the Lord...I will make merry in the presence of the Lord and run naked, and I will be lighthearted in your presence, and I will be honored by the maids with whom you called me naked"...

David therefore did not shrink from censure, nor was he ashamed to hear their reproaches for his religious service. Thus, this is a clear lesson that the prophet who beats a drum and dances before the Lord is justified, whereas the one who reproves him is condemned...

The dancing [saltationem] which David practised before the Ark of the Covenant is commended. For everything that is seemly is done for religion, such that we need not be ashamed of a service that tends to the worship and honoring of Christ...

But perhaps it may be said, Was it not then disgraceful for a man to walk wholly uncovered through the people, seeing that he must be met both by men and women? Must not the sight itself have shocked the eyes of all, especially of women? Do not we ourselves generally shrink from looking upon naked men? And are not men's persons concealed by garments that they may not offend the eyes of beholders by an unseemly spectacle?

But what if there was nothing worthy of reproach in the prophet's body? He indeed alluded not to corporeal but to spiritual things; for in his ecstasy of mind he says, not I will hearken what I shall say, but, what the Lord God shall say in me. Nor does he consider whether he is naked or clothed. Again, Adam before his sin was naked, but knew not he was naked, because he was endued with virtue; after he had committed sin he saw that he was naked, and covered himself. Noah was uncovered, but he blushed not, because he was full of gladness and spiritual joy, while he who derided him for being naked, himself remained subject to the disgrace of perpetual baseness. Joseph too, that he might not be basely uncovered, left his garment, and fled away naked; now which of the two was base in this instance, she who kept another's garment, or he who put off his own?"


[Letter LVIII, To Sabinus, Bishop]


Which is to say, in other words, that nude dancing for 'God' could technically be acceptable behaviour and nothing to be ashamed of given the right spiritual intent and state of mind, even as the same church fathers often waxed lyrical about the "obscene gesticulations" of Greco-Roman pantomime artists and athletes who exposed themselves in the buff as part and parcel of the spectacle of their professions.

St. Gregory Nazianzus (365 CE) even went so far as to laud David's dancing as "that swift course of revolution manifold ordained by God [...] a dance to the honor of God, worthy of an Emperor and a Christian", which was comprised his actual advice to the Roman Emperor Julian. "Perform the dances of King David before the ark".

Thus, St. Ambrose and most of his fellow church fathers (Augustine, Tertullian, Procopius) defended David's conduct and took the side of - most uncharacteristically for them, I have to admit - nude sacred dancing for the 'right reasons' as opposed to 'lascivious displays'.

Rabbi Abba b. Kahana (c.275), a Jewish amora or scholar whose aggadic teachings were codified as part of the Gemara, on the other hand portrayed David's dance as a "very sexual kind" of entertainment or spectacle and actually sided with Michael in reproaching David for dancing in such a way (Bemidbar IV.20 (Numbers) in The Midrash vol.5). A number of other Rabbis - and again in contrast to the Patristics who took it at face value to mean David exposed himself - conducted parallel exegesis on this passage using a similar account in 1 Chronicles, in an effort to reduce the dance to a mere: "he turned the front of his foot" and thereby explain away David's nudity as: "he stood on tiptoe, revealing his naked toes".

Needless to say, these verses have proven very controversial for those religious (Christians and Jews) who regard it as divinely inspired. A number of contemporary Evangelicals have in like manner sought to downplay or elide the sensual connotations and exposure of King David ("toes, alright? Its toes! Nothing more"), as the passage can embarrass and scandalise people.

Right, so what is your own religious perspective on nude and possibly sensual dancing? Can it ever be 'holy' or is it always, by default, to be reproached in all contexts? Are you with David or Michal on this?

Sorry, the way you worded that made me chuckle. :)

...But I have no problems with it. :)
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Right, so what is your own religious perspective on nude and possibly sensual dancing? Can it ever be 'holy' or is it always, by default, to be reproached in all contexts? Are you with David or Michal on this?

I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.

And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him
Back when I was young, I had been part of a Pentecostal church for a few years. Being the astonishingly brilliant scholars that they were, they had seized upon this passage about David dancing before the ark, as proof that being "slain in the spirit", or running up and down the aisles and falling over pews in states of religious ecstasies, as scriptural support for that practice. Even at that time, I could see that was a bit of a stretch, not to mention that none of them felt it okay to strip off their clothes in church as they roll down the aisles in their birthday suits. I'm pretty certain that would not have been viewed as okay, considering how conservative they were.

As far as my thoughts today apart from that peculiar "holy roller" interpretation of theirs, the human body should be used to worship God with, in all the ways that it can. If you view your body as a gift to worship God with, then use it that way. If that means standing naked on a hilltop, then do that if so inspired. However, part of that expression of devotion and joy, needs to include respect for others. You can't claim you were inspired to get naked by God, as an explanation why you took your clothes off in a shopping mall.

However, if it were in a setting where that sort of thing was commonplace and acceptable, then do it. The prudishness we feel about our own bodies, viewing our own naked bodies as something shameful, is a sad, tragic attack upon our spiritual well-being. I think that message, subtle as it may be, permeates our culture and society one one level or another, like the obsession about soaps, and smells, that are considered bad. It programs us with a self-image of shame in our natural states. Many don't even realize this, assuming that's what all humans feel.

I like the metaphor of standing naked before God. It's a powerful image and state of being. To truly stand unashamed before God, is to glorify God. It is the highest form of praising the Creation and Creator. And that applies to not just our bodies, but our souls, with nothing hidden. It is also the highest form of Freedom, no longer held down by shame. Culture shames us, in order to control us. So, I can see why one being able to do this, without shame, would be considered a high form of worship, as in the case of David. But if one did that in a shopping mall, then it fails as it would spread terror instead of joy.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Rabbi Abba b. Kahana (c.275), a Jewish amora or scholar whose aggadic teachings were codified as part of the Gemara, on the other hand portrayed David's dance as a "very sexual kind" of entertainment or spectacle and actually sided with Michal in reproaching David for dancing in such a way (Bemidbar IV.20 (Numbers) in The Midrash vol.5). A number of other Rabbis - and again in contrast to the Patristics who took it at face value to mean David exposed himself - conducted parallel exegesis on this passage using a similar account in 1 Chronicles, in an effort to reduce the dance to a mere: "he turned the front of his foot" and thereby explain away David's nudity as: "he stood on tiptoe, revealing his naked toes".

Needless to say, these verses have proven very controversial for those religious (Christians and Jews) who regard it as divinely inspired. A number of contemporary Evangelicals have in like manner sought to downplay or elide the sensual connotations and exposure of King David ("toes, alright? Its toes! Nothing more"), as the passage can embarrass and scandalise people.
I don't know what "translation" of the Midrash you're reading. But I checked out Bamidbar Rabbah 4 and while it does mention Rabbi Abba b. Kahana there as part of the discussion about David's dancing, that's about the part of what you wrote that it actually says there.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I don't know what "translation" of the Midrash you're reading. But I checked out Bamidbar Rabbah 4 and while it does mention Rabbi Abba b. Kahana there as part of the discussion about David's dancing, that's about the part of what you wrote that it actually says there.

Thank you for checking Tumah!

In the part I read, Rabbi Abba Kahana explained that a naked dancer is considered the lowest of the low, for none is more empty of mitzvot.

It said the following: "Said Rabbi Abba ben Kahana: The emptiest of worthless louts is the paid dancer-clown, for none is more thoroughly empty of mitzvots than he. Like him did David dance before the Ark." He then notes that David had 'disgraced' himself but it seems like I may have misread the passage and he was in fact being praised for doing this for the sake of mitzvot, like an act of humility?

I should clarify that the comment in "" about the sexualised element was from a scholar commenting on the import of his wording rather than what the Rabbi himself stated.
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
Thank you for checking Tumah!

In the part I read, Rabbi Abba Kahana explained that a naked dancer is considered the lowest of the low, for none is more empty of mitzvot.

It said the following: "Said Rabbi Abba ben Kahana: The emptiest of worthless louts is the paid dancer-clown, for none is more thoroughly empty of mitzvots than he. Like him did David dance before the Ark." He then notes that David had 'disgraced' himself but it seems like I may have misread the passage and he was in fact being praised for doing this for the sake of mitzvot, like an act of humility?

I should clarify that the comment in "" about the sexualised element was from a scholar commenting on the import of his wording rather than what the Rabbi himself stated.
Yeah, according to the passage it was considered an act of humility. I forget the exact wording but at some point along the way, it was comparing what David did to the solemn walk a king normally does in a parade. And then it goes on to say that David didn't take his own honor into account at all, as he was dancing for G-d.
According to the Midrash, Michal complains that he danced in this way which lead to him not being modest (in his dress) while women were watching and he should have acted more like her own father who is then described as having been very modest even while using the bathroom in private.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Right, so what is your own religious perspective on nude and possibly sensual dancing? Can it ever be 'holy' or is it always, by default, to be reproached in all contexts? Are you with David or Michal on this?
I have never, yet, determined the meaning of the passage for Christians. I think its complicated as the OP shows. I'd probably take Tumah's word on it and kneed it into something similar. Maybe its included as a lesson to stay humble and not start shushing everyone like a 1950's librarian? Maybe its only illustrating that its more important to be humble than to do everything perfectly? That is certainly true I think. I'm not sure if its why David does this or what. Some people think David has no control of himself when he does this, but I doubt that is what is described.

Yeah, according to the passage it was considered an act of humility...
That makes sense to me.I don't know everything that is going on in the scene. You probably called it. Is it Ok for David to put away his wife over it? Is that what he does, or do you think its mutual? Maybe its that she won't have him afterwards?
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
the word for his 'dancing' or 'hopping' around is saltare /saltatio which is indicative of a "salacious, sensational movement quality"
There's the point when I wonder, having myself done free dance for hours at a time, on hundreds of times.... There are so many kinds of dancing -- which I've done myself over and over in spontaneous free dance stuff of all kinds -- so that I know there are about 50 degrees of stuff this is falling short of being 'salacious'...

It would be rather, in the eye of the beholder.

It's not salacious unless I mean for it to be salacious. But to some other person that doesn't even dance -- 'ya don't even dance!?' -- it might seem to be 'who knows what.'
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
:) Just in case it's not been posted already, this is...okish (adequate) in my view. Maybe it's even like what happened (not totally unlike) --

(if doesn't start near 45 seconds, then I suggest slide time slider to about 45 seconds to get to the dancing)
 
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halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Right, so what is your own religious perspective on nude and possibly sensual dancing? Can it ever be 'holy' or is it always, by default, to be reproached in all contexts? Are you with David or Michal on this?
Oh, that's so easy though -- of course it can be holy, or instead some over very different thing, and often people looking on wouldn't even be able to tell, but often they could tell. I go with the hypothesis that Michal was just too stiff-necked. One has to be able to accept how other people are, and that's part of what is good in life. They aren't bland, often.
 
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