• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Knowing vs Believing

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Not if you embrace some particular prophet of God (or become one yourself.)

In that case, you can know the objective truth about anything at all. You have direct access to God's Own Noggin, and that's the only place where objective truth can exist, I think.

Of course the skeptics and followers of opposing prophets may snicker at you, but don't worry. Your prophet will come along soon enough to inform you that they are all confused and misguided.:)

Hence the standpoint.....'my religion is right...yours is wrong'

Sorting through the dogma should be required.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Hence the standpoint.....'my religion is right...yours is wrong'

Sorting through the dogma should be required.

I think that accepting ambiguity is required. We can't know what is true. We shouldn't know what is true.

So it seems to me.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I think that accepting ambiguity is required. We can't know what is true. We shouldn't know what is true.

So it seems to me.

This would take away...Genesis.

The acquisition of knowledge....allegedly.... damned us all.
(I don't believe that)

The knowledge of good and evil is required.
How to stand well before God and heaven without it?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
There is no knowledge free of experience.

Do you mean "personal experience"? Or as long as someone has experienced it?

If you need to experience something personally for it to be considered knowledge, then tell me what your experience with atoms was that convinced you they were made up of electrons, protons, and neutrons.

And if it can be knowledge as long as someone has experienced it, then why do you discount personal experiences with God as an acceptable evidence for the existence of God?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Do you mean "personal experience"? Or as long as someone has experienced it?

If you need to experience something personally for it to be cosidered knowledge, then tell me what your experience with atoms was that convinced you they were made up of electrons, protons, and neutrons.

When did I say personal experience? Must have been a typing error.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Also we can do the whole brain in a vat thing, can we really know anything? Arguments from scepticism and solipsism do get the point across I suppose. But either we experience objective reality or are incapable of it, and if the latter is true it's irrelevant. It's rather difficult to assume nobody you interact with is conscious, but admittedly we don't know that. So for this thread we start with the belief that we can know anything at all, because if we can't we are all locked in a paradoxical existence being hypocrites for sharing ideas here.

I don't think we can know anything, but I believe in fun ;). And if we can't know then we cannot argue that some deity objectively exists.

I agree. We cannot know.

We do can argue though, but I cant see how we could give objctive evidence of the existence of anytng.

So we know nothing. We dont even know if we know nothing :D.

Kowledge is just degree of certainty, and certainty can never be evidenced objectively.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I agree. We cannot know.

We do can argue though, but I cant see how we could give objctive evidence of the existence of anytng.

So we know nothing. We dont even know if we know nothing :D.

Kowledge is just degree of certainty, and certainty can never be evidenced objectively.

So the sun won't rise in the morning?

If you fail to find water....you won't die of thirst?

Play Russian roulette and the gun will never fire?

Degree of certainty....as if you are the source of what is....and what is not.

Does the fallen tree make a sound?
As of your presence is required.

Reality is separate of our will.
It is not separate of our certainties.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
So the sun won't rise in the morning?

If you fail to find water....you won't die of thirst?

Play Russian roulette and the gun will never fire?

Degree of certainty....as if you are the source of what is....and what is not.

Does the fallen tree make a sound?
As of your presence is required.

Reality is separate of our will.
It is not separate of our certainties.

First you have to show what we see as reality is even real. Disprove brain in a vat.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The evidence points to mystic experiences being cause by the brain.
Being caused by, or there is a physiological component to? Are your emotions caused by the chemicals in your body, or are the chemicals a response to thought, creating a felt experience? Are you meaning to suggest that our minds just going along for the ride of random and arbitrary impulses of the body, that we're just sitting around a big blank and then all of a sudden we feel happy or sad, or on another level suddenly experience God? We are nothing but a bubbling pot of brain functions?

The entire experience of your life is through the brain. This no more invalidates God than it does your own entire life. How the heck else are you going to "know" God in this body than through the body?

Why would I assume God exists for absolutely no reason?
Direct experience is evidence. Evidence is a reason.

I assume neither way, as I do not think we could truly know that any divine force exists. My point is we cannot use mystical experiences to say, objectively, that divinity exists. It is not knowledge, but subjective interpretation.
Nope, you're conflating terms here. It is knowledge in the sense that it is direct, firsthand experience. Then secondarily, you have interpretations of said experience. Those interpretations are nothing more than models trying to explain the actual data - which actual data is the experience itself.

Can we say objectively that God exists? I think we can say safely that the type of experiences mystics have (myself included as one), are objectively real. Objectively real in that you can actually measure differences in brain activities on a physiological level. Objective in a common basic descriptions of the types of experiences had. Now then, following that, these interpretive models come into play and those will vary in their basic frameworks, but the underlying descriptions of experience regardless of later interpretive frameworks are common enough to refer to as objective.

Just because someone calls that their tribal god at work in them, as opposed to another who sees that as some Cosmic Mind, does not negate the reality of common experience. To focus on the models is like looking at the fingers on the hand as all being different, rather than what they all in their unique shapes are pointing to.

Chemical reactions in the brain objectively exist, what we call emotions. I would agree that the reactions people interpret as God objectively exist, but this does not make gods objectively exist. Emotions are in the brain, but with God we have people arguing something objective caused the experience, which is likely not the case.

We know what we call emotions exist, we believe God exists.
We know God exists in the same way we know emotions exist.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
dear doors of perception ,




to my mind there are two types of knowledge ,

aquired knowledge and experiencial knowledge ,

as discussed earlier aquired knowledge equates more closely to beleif .
I'm not sure why my point about the difference between comprehension and apprehension has gone unnoticed in this thread. I explained this in post 12. Yes, very much there is a difference between the type of knowledge you are alluding to as acquired knowledge and experiential knowledge, although I would rather qualify that all experiential knowledge is also acquired knowledge. We amass the data through experience, the more experience, the more knowledge.

What you mean to say I believe is conceptual knowledge, versus experiential knowledge. This again from post 12 that helps explain this:



"The words apprehension and comprehension refer to two different mental processes of grasping or taking hold of experience. Apprehension is the ability to understand something by relying on tangible or concrete experience. A simple example is when you touch the fire it will burn your finger. This experience can lead you apprehending that you should not touch fire. Whereas comprehension does not require concrete experience to understand, it is the ability to understand through reliance on conceptual interpretation and symbolic representation. Comprehension means the complete process of understanding, to perceive, interpret and process knowledge. In the examination point of view a comprehension means an exercise characterized by questions based on a short paragraph or text. A comprehension is to test the aptitude of the student.

Linguists tend to define comprehension as ‘understanding and deciding’. They define apprehension as ‘understanding and hesitating’. It is thus for sure that comprehension ends in decision whereas apprehension ends in hesitation. Comprehension at time paves the way for discussion too, whereas apprehension paves the way for imagination."​


Read more: Difference Between Apprehension and Comprehension | Difference Between
 

allright

Active Member
It is impossible for and intellectually honest person to claim they know God exist no matter what the reason said:
As an intellectually honest person please provide proof that this statement is true and not just your belief
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
No...I don't think so.
Your brain IS in a vat.

And reality depends on your perception of it?...I don't think so.

Reality as unreal?
A contradiction in terms.

It's not a contradiction if we think something is reality and we are wrong...
Apply a little more thought here.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
When did I say personal experience? Must have been a typing error.

You said:
There is no knowledge free of experience.

I am asking you whether that experience has to be something you personally experience or if it can be some experience that someone else experienced.

In other words, does your statement claim that you can only have knowledge if you yourself experience something. Or does your statement claim that knowledge must be rooted in some experience that someone had, that can then be passed on to others who may or may not have experienced that.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Knowledge is obviously not soley from personal experience, unless you believe the Sun does not exist for an individual who was born blind.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Knowledge is obviously not soley from personal experience, unless you believe the Sun does not exist for an individual who was born blind.

Ok, then why a) do you not think a personal experience as an acceptable reason for that particular person to believe and b) why do you think that the collective experience of all those people are not a compelling piece of evidence for you to believe, despite not experiencing it.
 
Top