Knowledge

[1137]

Creation is empirical evidence of a Creator, along with His Word...In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Gen. 1:1)

This is a random sentence written by a random author based on nothing. That's not knowledge.

I 'm not sure what your misunderstanding is, but I think this verse is pretty clear about the being and nature of Lucifer.

The verse is about the Babylonian king and "Lucifer" is the KJV translation for the word "helel", meaning "shining one", a title being assigned to the Babylonian king in the verse. That's the exact misunderstanding, that it's about some angelic entity by the name of Lucifer.

Even Jesus calls himself the bright morning star - synonymous with Venus aka Lucifer.

 

[InChrist]

This is a random sentence written by a random author based on nothing. That's not knowledge.

Random? ...the first verse in the Hebrew scriptures, the first verse of the entire Bible, the most read and most enduring book throughout history in spite of relentless attempts to destroy it... I think you need to rethink your use of the word- random.

The verse is about the Babylonian king and "Lucifer" is the KJV translation for the word "helel", meaning "shining one", a title being assigned to the Babylonian king in the verse. That's the exact misunderstanding, that it's about some angelic entity by the name of Lucifer.

I thought that would be the response you’d have because I’ve heard it before, but such a conclusion does not make sense. The passage starts off about the Babylonian king probably because Satan is the principality behind the powers of this king and his corrupt rule, but the following verses are only applicable to an angelic being, not an earthy king...

"How you are fallen from heaven, Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High. Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.

Jesus states in Luke 10:18-20: "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Revelation also leaves no doubt as to who fell from heaven:
Revelation 12:7-12: "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Note that the only ones in the Bible that fell from heaven are the Devil and his angels and they will be brought down to Sheol, the lowest depths as shown in...


Revelation 20:10: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone


This same pattern of addressing an earthy king and also the angelic power of Lucifer/Satan behind such a ruler is also used in Ezekiel 28 with the lamentation over the king of Tyre...


You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God.

Notice the statements that are given in the passage in Ezekiel, “you were in the Eden”, "the anointed cherub", ‘on the holy mountain of God” These statements could never apply to a human king but, they do apply to the angelic being Lucifer/now fallen Satan who is behind the human king.



You are free to pretend the scripture is only talking to an earthly king, but I think it is clear the intent of the passage was to talk about Satan, the Devil, also known world over as Lucifer.

Even Jesus calls himself the bright morning star - synonymous with Venus aka Lucifer.

[/quote]

“The idea of a “bright morning star” is a star that outshines all the others. Satan, as perhaps the most beautiful creation of God, probably the most powerful of all the angels, was a bright morning star. Jesus, as God incarnate, the Lord of the universe, is THE bright and morning star. Jesus is the most holy and powerful “light” in all the universe. So, while both Jesus and Satan can be described as “bright morning stars,” in no sense is this equating Jesus and Satan. Satan is a created being. His light only exists to the extent that God created it. Jesus is the light of the world (John 9:5). Only Jesus’ light is self-existent. “

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/morning-star.html#ixzz34P3mL07m

 

[1137]

Haha, you're interpreting Jewish scripture with christian scripture?

 

[InChrist]

Haha, you're interpreting Jewish scripture with christian scripture?

Or just interpreting God's word with His own progressively revealed word.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Claims of knowledge which are not able to be verified via supportable/repeatable/demonstrable evidence remain nothing more than bare assertions.

 

[InChrist]

Claims of knowledge which are not able to be verified via supportable/repeatable/demonstrable evidence remain nothing more than bare assertions.

So you are asserting that only knowledge that is based on naturalism is valid or real knowledge, is that correct?

 

[Hawkins]

These things require belief before you can say they're true. While the belief may be a logically valid one it is not the same as knowing. Nobody knows whether any god does or doesn't exist. There is no empirical evidence at all, let alone that's conclusive.

You contradict yourself here. You can hardly go through anyone in present or in the past to conclude that "Nobody knows whether any god...".

More importantly, you don't know what knowledge is and how human knowledge is just a form of witnessing. Get back to the point, it is your belief/faith that "Nobody knows......". Your this belief can be valid and cannot. You do not know. That's the case.


As for your OP, history as whole is never supported by empirical evidence. History (= his story) is supported mostly by witnessing (i.e., written by a small group of humans for other humans to get to the truth). On the other hand, history is definitely part of valid human knowledge.

 

[Hawkins]

Claims of knowledge which are not able to be verified via supportable/repeatable/demonstrable evidence remain nothing more than bare assertions.

There basically 5 categories of truths:

1) scientific truth
You already know that this can be repeatedly demonstrable

2) truth occurred at present time
Such as the existence of Barrack Obama. This can be repeatedly demonstrable

3) truth occurred in the past (especially long past)
No, most of them cannot be repeatedly demonstrable

4) truth that you can tough with your own personal perception
Such as water is wet. You can repeatedly make sure that it is with your own hands.

5) truth unreachable to current humans
Such as the existence of black hole to humans in stone age. Black holes (as known by later humans) is not a myth, it's just that humans in stone age can hardly verify. If you are sent back to stone age to tell them the truth. It would be the same as stuff like "hell, gods, angels....". Even when it is a truth, it is not repeatedly demonstrable.

 

[1137]

Or just interpreting God's word with His own progressively revealed word.

I don't think I'll ever understand people who believe in a God who flip flops and blatantly lies.

 

[1137]

You contradict yourself here. You can hardly go through anyone in present or in the past to conclude that "Nobody knows whether any god...".

More importantly, you don't know what knowledge is and how human knowledge is just a form of witnessing. Get back to the point, it is your belief/faith that "Nobody knows......". Your this belief can be valid and cannot. You do not know. That's the case.

By definition, God is a nonphysical force of some kind. Therefore we cannot gather direct empirical evidence of God. The only way we can know one exists is through its effect on the environment, like with gravity. As of yet there have be no repeatable and objective, successful attempts to interact with God and there is no evidence of miracles or divine intervention outside of myth.

So we can safely know that nobody knows and god exists. Knowledge requires observation.

 

[InChrist]

I don't think I'll ever understand people who believe in a God who flip flops and blatantly lies.

I don't think I'll ever understand how some people can imagine a God who lies.

 

[1137]

I don't think I'll ever understand how some people can imagine a God who lies.

But you imagine one... Hell, NT god directly contradicts OT god and you believe they're one in the same

 

[InChrist]

But you imagine one... Hell, NT god directly contradicts OT god and you believe they're one in the same

You say there is a contradiction , but I don't see such a contradiction. I do find it odd that you seem to consider yourself so knowledgeable concerning contradictions in the scriptures about God when you don't even believe in a Personal God.

 

[outhouse]

You say there is a contradiction , but I don't see such a contradiction. I do find it odd that you seem to consider yourself so knowledgeable concerning contradictions in the scriptures about God when you don't even believe in a Personal God.

Seeing errors and contradictions and mistakes, does not require faith.

 

[InChrist]

Seeing errors and contradictions and mistakes, does not require faith.

I think it does require "knowing" God to be able to accurately understand who He is and the words He has spoken and preserved. If you don't know someone personally it is very easy to make any number of assumptions and misjudgments about them.

 

[Desert Snake]

Seeing errors and contradictions and mistakes, does not require faith.

You see what you want to see. The last supposed 'contradiction' I debunked wasn't a contradiction at all.


Present away.....................

 

[1137]

You say there is a contradiction , but I don't see such a contradiction. I do find it odd that you seem to consider yourself so knowledgeable concerning contradictions in the scriptures about God when you don't even believe in a Personal God.

The most glaring contradiction is the fact that Jesus claims to be god in the flesh (blasphemy) and claims to be the Messiah, yet god was very specific about what would come with the messiah, how times would change, etc. So he blatantly misled us and / or lied about the nature of the Messiah if Christ is indeed him. Therefore one book must be wrong if the other is correct. This means they contradict.

Likewise, in Judaism there is no devil or anything of the sort. God is creator of all, there is no angel who's capable of challenging his authority.

 

[InChrist]

The most glaring contradiction is the fact that Jesus claims to be god in the flesh (blasphemy) and claims to be the Messiah, yet god was very specific about what would come with the messiah, how times would change, etc. So he blatantly misled us and / or lied about the nature of the Messiah if Christ is indeed him. Therefore one book must be wrong if the other is correct. This means they contradict.

What do you care about blasphemy when you don't even believe or acknowledge the Personal God of the Hebrew scriptures? I agree God was very specific about events related to the Messiah, maybe you are just missing something big time and both the Hebrew scriptures and the NT are in perfect harmony.

Likewise, in Judaism there is no devil or anything of the sort. God is creator of all, there is no angel who's capable of challenging his authority.

[/quote]

And why should you think that an angel could not challenge or rebel against the authority of God? You, a mere human being, seem to be capable of challenging God and living in rebellion to Him. The extent to which that rebellion will be allowed to go by God and what it is actually accomplishing is another matter.

Maybe modern Judaism does not include reference to the devil, but the Hebrew scriptures do...

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” Job 1:6-7

 

[1137]

How Satan Is Viewed in Judaism