Krishna and the Baha'i faith

[Truthseeker]

Saying there is no contradiction doesn't mean there is no contradiction. 1000 people can see a contradiction, and if one person says 'there is no contradiction' does that mean the rest are all wrong?

Don't know your point here. Did I forget to say "in my opinion" ths time? You took out one section of what I said, and I don't remember now what I said otherwise now. I don't have that good of a memory.

 

[Truthseeker]

Don't get me wrong Truthseeker9, I LIKE BAHA'I.

The issue might be that Baha'i also stresses that it is a World Religion for all peoples and not just an Abrahamic Religion. However, the Founders of the Faith were not versed in the Hindu and eastern worlds and clumsily tried to put Krishna and Buddha into some kind of line of 'progressive revelation' along with Abrahamic Manifestations of God.

Really? I believe that in some ways the Baha'i advances Buddhism and Hinduism. Let me revise about Hinduism and Buddhism. Hinduism other than Krishna undoubtedly has some truth, but it is the truths of Krishna that Baha'i advances and agrees with, as far as what we can discern of what Krishna said. The Bhagavid Gita looks inspired to me, but it appears to be set in a mythological story that doesn't have a factual reality to me, which puzzles me. As far as Buddhism goes, there so many Buddhist texts, it's hard to tell what He actually said. Your view of this may differ.

 

[Truthseeker]

How flexible are bahai with their beliefs?

It seems like there is so many interpretations that its hard to know what bahais believe in as a unit-a guideline or structure-to tell the difference between it and other like universalist religions. Any group oriented religion has some form of dogma and traditions, without it, religions cannot survive.

Baha'is are free to have their own own opinions, what keeps the Baha'is united is the covenant. If you want to discuss the covenant, we can do that.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Really? I believe that in some ways the Baha'i advances Buddhism and Hinduism.

The reason why I have my concerns about Baha'i advancing anything us Hindus believe, is that we have a lot of detailed stories and beliefs, sometimes involving multiple gods. The beliefs are really complex and detailed. In some cases, Krishna isn't even our main deity. So it's like one puzzle piece out of 100 was taken from our faith, and then there's some expectation that it advances Hinduism.

Plus Hinduism does have a couple of potentially more advanced things than the Baha'i faith, despite being older. We have some extremely detailed and accurate predictions regarding cosmology, as well as support of transgenderism within the stories. Shoghi had some restrictive views of transgender people - something that outsiders can well see, but that Baha'is often don't.

 

[Truthseeker]

So Bahauallah did not come as God's messenger to the World, just to parts of it?

I think I gave the wrong impression with my remarks there. Baha'u'llah did not speak of Krishna or Buddha as we lived in an Islamic world with a few Jews and Christians there. But in His teachings, the truths of Krishna and Buddha as afr as we can discern them were confirmed nonetheless in my opinion.

 

[Marcion]

Really? I believe that in some ways the Baha'i advances Buddhism and Hinduism. Let me revise about Hinduism and Buddhism. Hinduism other than Krishna undoubtedly has some truth, but it is the truths of Krishna that Baha'i advances and agrees with, as far as what we can discern of what Krishna said. The Bhagavid Gita looks inspired to me, but it appears to be set in a mythological story that doesn't have a factual reality to me, which puzzles me. As far as Buddhism goes, there so many Buddhist texts, it's hard to tell what He actually said. Your view of this may differ.

I think that if you really understood the teachings of Shri Krishna and other major Guru's who took birth in India you would see things very differently.
The teachings of Bahá'u'lláh may perhaps have some minor intersections with those highly developed teachings, but they need to be much improved on in order to be as broadly relevant to spiritual progress.

Of course you will see that differently because you believe the story of "revelations" and are centered on the Abrahamic religious world.
But seen from the other side, that Abrahamic world is but marginal to the main stream of spirituality.
Not that I wish in any way to belittle that religious world since it also gave birth to Sufism and other mystic traditions.

That is why our Hindu friends on this forum politely reject the insistence of the Abrahamics that they are so important or in any way central.
As spiritual philosophy and spiritual practices are concerned, they have no need at all for the teachings coming from the West.

 

[Truthseeker]

We have some extremely detailed and accurate predictions regarding cosmology, as well as support of transgenderism within the stories. Shoghi had some restrictive views of transgender people - something that outsiders can well see, but that Baha'is often don't.

I have not seen any restrictive views on transgenger people. Maybe you're talking about gay people not having sex with each other? How can you really determine if that is really something bad? Did Krishna say anything about this subject? I know of no cosmology expressed by Krishna, either. It is Krishna we focus on, not any other source.

We can't speak to all the texts and beliefs of Hinduism. There may be some truth to the other texts. I haven't really read very much of them myself. Very few.

 

[Truthseeker]

Of course you will see that differently because you believe the story of "revelations" and are centered on the Abrahamic religious world.

As far as revelations, yes we believe in revelations, you're right. We believe in revelations from God.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I have not seen any restrictive views on transgenger people.

If transgender people are to participate in Gatherings etc as a Baha'i, they're actually expected to have the surgery done to change their private parts, and not just be on hormones without the surgery, or transition without hormones or surgery.

How can you really determine if that is really something bad?

What, transgenderism? The only way it's bad is for me, because I'm transgender.

I know of no cosmology expressed by Krishna, either.

Krishna is just a character in our religion. He may be a real god. And to some, a mega powerful one, that might span everything to some extent. To others, just a god. And still to other Hindus, just a character. But until you stop thinking that Krishna does everything that happens in Hindu theology, well, it's difficult to move onto more detailed subjects.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Cosmology:

Religious interpretations of the Big Bang theory - Wikipedia

 

[Dawnofhope]

About Baha'is believing Krishna a manifestation. Shoghi casts doubt or lack of certainty, yet the Baha'i website agrees with it.

Shoghi:

"We cannot be sure of the authenticity of the scriptures of Buddha and Krishna" - (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi - 25 November 1950)

Scriptures of Previous Dispensations

"As regards your study of the Hindu religion: The origins of this and many other religions that abound in India are not quite known to us, and even the Orientalists and the students of religion are not in complete accord about the results of their investigations in that field. The Bahá'í writings also do not refer specifically to any of these forms of religion current in India. So, the Guardian feels it impossible to give you any definite and detailed information on that subject. He would urge you, however, to carry on your studies in that field, although its immensity is well-nigh bewildering, with the view of bringing the Message to the Hindus. The task of converting this section of the Indian population is a most vital obligation, although the Guardian is fully aware of the many difficulties that it presents. Nevertheless the friends should do their best to make as many converts among the Hindus as they possibly can." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi - 17 April 1936)

Hindu | Bahá’í Quotes

Now for the website:

And this is the official Baha'i website right, or an official one at least?

View attachment 52940

The Baháʼí Faith - Home

Important additional conversation points up for debate:

Krishna is only one of 330 million or more Hindu gods.

My additional statements:

Here I've suggested that debating Baha'is on Hinduism is sometimes a wasted effort. However bringing forth this research of mine, I'm willing to give it a go again. My concerns are that it's kind of impossible to make Hinduism fit with an Abrahamic faith, let alone take one god of our 330 million Hindu gods, and choose it as the one that happens to be a manifestation.

I do believe some of the original Baha'i texts do cite Krishna a manifestation. But is it better to go with the interpretation of some of the original Baha'i texts, or trust Shoghi as well as apply careful critical thinking to ponder whether Krishna has a proper place in the Baha'i worldview?

On the other hand, if you worship Krishna as a Baha'i, I'd hate to discourage you from that experience. If it turns out I'm somehow correct, which I'm not asserting, all I'd ask is for him to no longer be called a manifestation of the Abrahamic, Baha'i God.

The Baha'i faith teaches that Krishna was a 'Manifestation of God' and is ranked alongside other Great Spiritual Teachers such as Buddha, Christ and Muhammad.

Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe

Manifestation of God - Wikipedia

Bahá'í Faith and Hinduism - Wikipedia

We have a few scant references to Krishna and Hinduism in our writings or from the talks of Abdu'l-Baha. For example:

Blessed souls whether Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius, or Muhammad were the cause of the illumination of the world of humanity. How can we deny such irrefutable proof? How can we be blind to such light?"
('Abdu'l-Bahá from a Tablet - translated from the Persian)

The Message of Krishna is the message of love. All God's prophets have brought the message of love....
("Paris Talks: Addresses given by `Abdu'l-Bahá in Paris in 1911-1912", 11th ed. (London: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1979), p. 35)

So in summary we haven't a lot to go on when it comes to Krishna.

In regards Hinduism Shoghi Effendi has said:

...Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islám and the religion of the Sabaeans. These religions are not the only true religions that have appeared in the world, but are the only ones which are still existing. There have always been divine prophets and messengers, to many of whom the Qur'án refers. But the only ones existing are those mentioned above.

In regards the authenticity of the sacred writings including the Bhaghavad Gita we don't have too much to go on either. In response to questions of a more detailed nature Shoghi Effendi said it would be a matter for scholars to investigate further.

Your question concerning Brahma and Krishna: such matters, as no reference occurs to them in the Teachings, are left for students of history and religion to resolve and clarify.
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi - 14 April 1941)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of the scriptures of Buddha and Krishna, so we certainly cannot draw any conclusions about virgin birth mentioned in them. There is no reference to this subject in our teachings, so the Guardian cannot pronounce an opinion.

Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects

So in regards Krishna we haven't anything specific from the Baha'i writings to say. In fact we don't have much to say about Hinduism other than it is a true religion with Divine origins.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If transgender people are to participate in Gatherings etc as a Baha'i, they're actually expected to have the surgery done to change their private parts, and not just be on hormones without the surgery, or transition without hormones or surgery.

I’ve never heard of such a thing. Do you have anything to support this statement?

 

[Marcion]

So in regards Krishna we haven't anything specific from the Baha'i writings to say. In fact we don't have much to say about Hinduism other than it is a true religion with Divine origins.

Why just rely on the Baha'i writings and not just dive into the actual teachings of Shrii Krishna, Shrii Shiva and Shrii Shrii Anandamurtiji themselves?
What is the use of rather vague commentaries from people who seem to have little to say at all about the actual contents of those profound teachings?
They may put your mind at ease but does it satisfy you on a deeper level?
If you really believe that all the world religions bring the same message, then ignoring the strongest hub of spiritual practice and philosophy seems to me rather odd.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why just rely on the Baha'i writings and not just dive into the actual teachings of Shrii Krishna, Shrii Shiva and Shrii Shrii Anandamurtiji themselves?
What is the use of rather vague commentaries from people who seem to have little to say at all about the actual contents of those profound teachings?
They may put your mind at ease but does it satisfy you on a deeper level?
If you really believe that all the world religions bring the same message, then ignoring the strongest hub of spiritual practice and philosophy seems to me rather odd.

Not all religions bring the same message. Has each of the main world religions have emerged in vastly different cultures over the span of thousands of years it is inevitable there will be differences in both the message and the way it is taught.

The Baha'i Faith emerged from an Islamic culture, and from there eventually spread to the West and East. Baha'u'llah did know of Hinduism but spoke rarely of the religion as there was only once or twice He was asked about it.

Meditation and mysticism is accessible to us all whether in the East or West. The core truths we require to walk the spiritual path are not the exclusive domain of any one religion, Hinduism included.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Baha'is are free to have their own own opinions, what keeps the Baha'is united is the covenant. If you want to discuss the covenant, we can do that.

What's the structure of the covenant?

Universalist unitarians go by covenant instead of dogmatic but they have structure, services, initiation, and beliefs.

They're church structure and type is a covenant and they have dogma that structures their group and ideally explains what the group believes in without leaving everyone out.

They don't like the words traditions and dogma as most I know well are ex-christians.

It's the same question, though, regardless the term used. If the beliefs are so varied then what is the covenant based on and how does it function?

Is it more of a social group or activist organization? Charity?

 

[Vinayaka]

Really? I believe that in some ways the Baha'i advances Buddhism and Hinduism. Let me revise about Hinduism and Buddhism. Hinduism other than Krishna undoubtedly has some truth, but it is the truths of Krishna that Baha'i advances and agrees with, as far as what we can discern of what Krishna said. The Bhagavid Gita looks inspired to me, but it appears to be set in a mythological story that doesn't have a factual reality to me, which puzzles me. As far as Buddhism goes, there so many Buddhist texts, it's hard to tell what He actually said. Your view of this may differ.

Hinduism certainly doesn't need any help in 'advancing'. Advancing to what exactly? To a Baha'i world? No thanks. We are already more advanced in many ways, like acceptance of gays, vegetarianism, richness of culture, cultivation of virtues, or humility. I think Baha'i folks could learn a lot if they seriously listened to stuff from outside the Baha'i teachings, like the dharmic faiths.

Hinduism has been thriving on this planet for at least 5000 years, probably much longer in some form. It's outlasted Rome, Greece, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and other great civilisations of the past. It has over a billion adherents, several deep complex philosophies, incredible mysticism, and some small but aggressive group started by an Iranian preacher 170 years ago figures he has something to teach us?

Sorry.

 

[loverofhumanity]

At the very height of my meditations regarding Lord Shiva, it does feel kind of like an earth quake in my body/soul.

The other day I was trying to find a good Krishna mantra to meditate on and am still trying to find the one I want. My favourite was the one the Hare Krishnas chant but I haven’t found it yet.

Meditating on the Name of God brings me much happiness and so as Krishna is a name of God I love to meditate on it. This is food for the soul. Anytime we meditate on the names of God we receive comfort.

 

[Vinayaka]

The other day I was trying to find a good Krishna mantra to meditate on and am still trying to find the one I want. My favourite was the one the Hare Krishnas chant but I haven’t found it yet.

It is literally all over the internet. Do you have the internet?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I’ve never heard of such a thing. Do you have anything to support this statement?

I think so.

And while I could post something more slanted to my side, what I'm going to do is post a text that's instead more nuanced and detailed, where we can determine for ourselves what they are saying:

Transsexuality and Sex-Change Operations

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think so.

And while I could post something more slanted to my side, what I'm going to do is post a text that's instead more nuanced and detailed, where we can determine for ourselves what they are saying:

Transsexuality and Sex-Change Operations

There's nothing stopping someone who identifies as the opposite sex from which they were born attending devotional gatherings as a Baha'i. There's no stipulation to be on hormones or to have had surgery. It only becomes an issue from an administration perspective if one chooses to marry. For example a Baha'i who is born a male couldn't marry a male unless he was legally recognized as a woman. That's how I understand it.