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"Lack of belief"

Kartari

Active Member
Hey Acim,

Real quickly, the reality of physical existence aside for a moment, and in line with Aupmanyav's last post... have you addressed how your ideas about what I'll call supernatural reality can be discerned beyond the confines of the human mind? Iow, how can we know that your ideas are not merely ideas but reflect an actual reality?

From what I can gather from your posts, it appears you have not done so. Thanks.
 

Kartari

Active Member
Acim,

There's actually plenty of proof of spiritual knowledge in this world. Plenty of divine realizations written down, spoken about, or otherwise communicated.

You ninja'd me, lol. In light of the post I just posted, how do written and spoken "divine realizations" qualify as showing these ideas are actually real? I can write a novel trilogy called "Lord of the Rings," yet not too many people think that there are really dwarves, elves, and goblins as a result.

Your assertion is akin to saying scientific method doesn't exist, except in people's imaginations.

And how do you think this logically follows from Aup's post?
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Hey Acim,

Real quickly, the reality of physical existence aside for a moment, and in line with Aupmanyav's last post... have you addressed how your ideas about what I'll call supernatural reality can be discerned beyond the confines of the human mind? Iow, how can we know that your ideas are not merely ideas but reflect an actual reality?

From what I can gather from your posts, it appears you have not done so. Thanks.

Can you provide example of anything discerned beyond the confines of the human mind?

I believe I can, but would like you to provide such a thing without conveying an "idea."

Good luck!
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Acim,
You ninja'd me, lol. In light of the post I just posted, how do written and spoken "divine realizations" qualify as showing these ideas are actually real?

The Divine Self within me / you / us (all consciousness) qualifies what points to actual existence and what points to illusions. None of them are necessary (the pointers) for such qualifications to be realized. Nothing perceived as outside of you will (perfectly) explain Who You Are, and purpose for being here, according to Divine Purpose. By going within, via contemplation, insight, intuition, reason, logic, creativity, understanding, meditation, prayer (and more), will you find (perfect) explanation.

And how do you think this logically follows from Aup's post?

That all ideas about reality are found within what could be called imagination (which is also an idea).
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
Objectivity with regards to physicality would mean one isn't using physical senses to establish physicality, for that would be inherently biased and/or circular reasoning. You are free to use math and logic to constitute evidence of a physical existence.

I disagree that all scientific evidence constitutes physical reality (or existence). Mathematics would be a prime exception. The fact that the scientific method itself is not part of physical existence is perhaps a better example of how utterly non reliant science is on physical existence and is instead based on logical assumptions resting on a fundamental faith.



It is the other fundamental faith. Reason and logic are still at work under this type of faith.



Feel free to name them and within context that I previously brought up "natural self," I'll see how well they hold up.



Well, that's a vast assumption.



Nope, using primary dictionary definition of faith, not the religious one. Primary definition being: complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

I would think "religious faith" would work for religious people.

Objectivity with regards to physicality would mean one isn't using physical senses to establish physicality, for that would be inherently biased and/or circular reasoning. You are free to use math and logic to constitute evidence of a physical existence.
Your definition, as it stands, basically makes it impossible to show physical existence because any evidence would have to be observed through some sense to confirm physicality. Also, why would using senses to establish physicality be inherently biased or indicate circular reasoning? i mean if you can't establish physicality through the senses then you can't establish anything through the senses, which is quite a remarkable claim. Senses work well for many things when multiple people can confirm the result. It might be circular if you were relying on your own senses all the time but if you're relying on a thousand people who sense the same thing, then its not very likely that everyone is wrong.

I disagree that all scientific evidence constitutes physical reality (or existence). Mathematics would be a prime exception. The fact that the scientific method itself is not part of physical existence is perhaps a better example of how utterly non reliant science is on physical existence and is instead based on logical assumptions resting on a fundamental faith.
Mathematics isn't scientific evidence. Scientific evidence is derived from experiments which confirm or deny a hypothesis--sometimes based on math. No scientific theory relies on mathematics alone. ALso what do you mean when you say the scientific method is not part of physical existence? The scientific method doesn't work without physical things: peer review, cause and effect, experiments, etc. Also science doesn't rely on faith. Science admits its assumptions could be wrong. However, the success of science so far shows that the assumptions its based on are reasonable. That isn't faith when you can admit it could be wrong, you admit it could change, and it makes predictions from numerous experiments that turn out to be true. That makes science radically different from religious faith. Calling this faith is very fishy.

t is the other fundamental faith. Reason and logic are still at work under this type of faith.
Relying on reason and logic isn't faith. Also its not my fundamental faith. I accept the non zero probability of there being inherent problems with logic and reason. In fact it was shown that logic in set theory, for example, leads to contradiction. However, the success of reason and logic show, empirically, that it isn't just a matter of faith. Its a matter of results and predictions. It doesn't require faith that my computer works and that i will be able to post this message. ITs empirical and the fact that this computer does work (on a hardware logic level) shows that the logic that the computer relies on is generally sound. Again, if you're going to call this faith then you need a range of faith values to apply to different scales of faith. The "faith" that my computer works is many of orders of magnitudes smaller than the faith that Jesus walked on water.

Nope, using primary dictionary definition of faith, not the religious one. Primary definition being: complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
Not many thinking people or scientists have complete trust or confidence in anything. I don't have complete trust or confidence in anything. I assign probabilities, as do most scientists, to various facts. THe existence of gravity, for example, is something like 99.99...999 with 1 million nines. Basically its something extremely likely to be true. But nothing ever reaches 100% because for all we know we could be in the matrix. THe problem with your argument is that you think people have complete confidence and trust in something, which they don't.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Your definition, as it stands, basically makes it impossible to show physical existence because any evidence would have to be observed through some sense to confirm physicality. Also, why would using senses to establish physicality be inherently biased or indicate circular reasoning? i mean if you can't establish physicality through the senses then you can't establish anything through the senses, which is quite a remarkable claim. Senses work well for many things when multiple people can confirm the result. It might be circular if you were relying on your own senses all the time but if you're relying on a thousand people who sense the same thing, then its not very likely that everyone is wrong.

With the last assertion, you could say similar thing about 'believers' - they can't all be wrong - thus existence of God is a given?

"My definition, as it stands" is I observe how things are set up for physicality, but not necessarily all we have to go on. We have consciousness, insight, intuition, reason, logic, contemplation, etc. to go on as well. I see those (or that) as a) superseding senses and b) giving way to questioning and/or accepting physical existence.

I am not saying, haven't said you can't establish physicality through the senses, but as noted, see that as circular reasoning. Akin to saying one can establish God's existence through the Bible, while reason / contemplation would suggest that to be circular. Consciousness utilizes the senses / physical self for observation of physical existence. I see this as ultimately confirming a faith in that understanding of self. Same consciousness can do similar, if not exact same, thing in a night dream, establishing self as physical, with physical senses to confirm observations of an entire physical world, with entities that are not 'me' (not my physical self) and other people who can confirm what is being seen is independent of 'me.'

Mathematics isn't scientific evidence. Scientific evidence is derived from experiments which confirm or deny a hypothesis--sometimes based on math.

This is point I felt like I made. Perhaps you made it better.

No scientific theory relies on mathematics alone. ALso what do you mean when you say the scientific method is not part of physical existence? The scientific method doesn't work without physical things: peer review, cause and effect, experiments, etc.

Scientific method stems from consciousness, and is not observable in physical existence. It's an idea, part of imagination.

Also science doesn't rely on faith. Science admits its assumptions could be wrong. However, the success of science so far shows that the assumptions its based on are reasonable. That isn't faith when you can admit it could be wrong, you admit it could change, and it makes predictions from numerous experiments that turn out to be true. That makes science radically different from religious faith. Calling this faith is very fishy.

Can science admit that it is basing its assumptions about 'reality' on an existence that has not (yet) been shown to objectively exist - aside from perception of self as physical entity? Does science admit it could be fundamentally 'wrong' based on this central, underlying point? Honestly, I would give credit to science to suggest it could admit to this, even while it generally does not, or while I never have seen that admitted to. I still think science can. Once the fundamental faith is accepted, I do think reason can follow, where correlations/associations can be rationally discerned. Though how much of that is entirely on the observer? The reality of consciousness?

Relying on reason and logic isn't faith. Also its not my fundamental faith. I accept the non zero probability of there being inherent problems with logic and reason.

You are missing what I stated. Before reason and logic are employed comes the fundamental faith. This is in reference to the Self, not what the self thinks after the fundamental faith is accepted. All that (thinking) may include reliance on reason and logic, and that isn't itself the fundamental faith of which I speak. But that faith is underlying all existence. Again, with night dream, this is more clear, while reason and logic are entirely possible within the dream scenario. Though admittedly, there's 'room' to have certain convictions about physical existence made loose, less entrenched than what this world holds, but even then reason and logic aren't dismissed. They are still at work, processing or filtering the entire experience (of the dream) for comprehension of what is occurring, and why, or how.

Not many thinking people or scientists have complete trust or confidence in anything. I don't have complete trust or confidence in anything. I assign probabilities, as do most scientists, to various facts. THe existence of gravity, for example, is something like 99.99...999 with 1 million nines. Basically its something extremely likely to be true. But nothing ever reaches 100% because for all we know we could be in the matrix. THe problem with your argument is that you think people have complete confidence and trust in something, which they don't.

I actually believe no one has 100% faith in physical existence, and that all persons, do have innate knowledge that while they appear in this world, they are not of it. I also think of faith in physical existence as a distortion of faith, fundamentally as it is distorting the reality of Self, and Existence. But whatever your assigned probability is to existence of gravity, you could possibly add another million nines after that to get to the probability that some have for existence of physical world as 'their reality.' Still wouldn't be 100%. Given the fact of physical death, thus far zero exceptions, I doubt it will ever be 100% conviction/faith.
 

Kartari

Active Member
Hi Acim,

Can you provide example of anything discerned beyond the confines of the human mind?

Elephants, gorillas, trees, corn, beans, the planets, the stars, homes, airplanes, buses, trucks, cars, roads, etc... More generally: matter, energy, gravity, the nuclear forces, electromagnetism, etc...

Shall I go on?

...would like you to provide such a thing without conveying an "idea."

Ideas can describe both real and fictitious topics, though. Just because something can be conceived does not make it unreal. I can both have an idea about a car wheel being flat and the facts of it both existing and being flat can also be simultaneously true. You can easily demonstrate the reality of the car wheel and its flatness (as well as elephants and the many other examples listed above). The correct attachment of the wheel to the car enables the car to move correctly. The flatness of the tire can be seen visually, and can be felt by touch: and demonstrated by the not-so-smooth running of the car even when attached correctly.

Imagining ideas (e.g. about God) without there being any substance to show their reality, however, is not at all convincing to someone interested in facts.

I believe I can, but...

Good luck!

Go for it. Good luck to you. :)
 
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Kartari

Active Member
Hi Acim,

The Divine Self within me / you / us (all consciousness) qualifies what points to actual existence and what points to illusions. None of them are necessary (the pointers) for such qualifications to be realized. Nothing perceived as outside of you will (perfectly) explain Who You Are, and purpose for being here, according to Divine Purpose. By going within, via contemplation, insight, intuition, reason, logic, creativity, understanding, meditation, prayer (and more), will you find (perfect) explanation.

So, in other words, you believe we can find what is real by subjective conjecture?

That all ideas about reality are found within what could be called imagination (which is also an idea).

Then the problem you are having is a failure to comprehend the difference between science and subjective conjecture.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Hi Acim,
Elephants, gorillas, trees, corn, beans, the planets, the stars, homes, airplanes, buses, trucks, cars, roads, etc... More generally: matter, energy, gravity, the nuclear forces, electromagnetism, etc...

Shall I go on?

You can discern these things outside of the confines of your mind? I cannot. I observe, quite acutely actually, that all of them are given all meaning and existence from my mind, and I assume are shared in same way via other minds that I perceive through my mind, as well.

Ideas can describe both real and fictitious topics, though.

So, this substantiates my claim. You are only conveying ideas about alleged things, which is what I fully anticipated.

Imagining ideas (e.g. about God) without there being any substance to show their reality, however, is not at all convincing to someone interested in facts.

And your presumptions of substance given the reliance on physical self as real, unsubstantiated as 'fact' is not all that interesting to the philosopher in me. Unreasonable to the theologist in me. Known to rest foremost, if not entirely, on faith.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
So, in other words, you believe we can find what is real by subjective conjecture?

You could call it that. I'd call it contemplation, intuition, knowledge and reason.

Then the problem you are having is a failure to comprehend the difference between science and subjective conjecture.

I think I have acute awareness of the overlap between the two, and the denials that think the two don't work hand in hand. I'm glad to continue this cause all you're doing is throwing out lofty assertions without really anything to back them up. It's always interesting when fans of science distance their assertions from the fundamental philosophy that science is clearly based on, but fascinating when the fundamental faith is denied. I relish such a discussion.
 

Kartari

Active Member
You can discern these things outside of the confines of your mind?

Yes. Like most humans, I can.

I cannot. I observe, quite acutely actually, that all of them are given all meaning and existence from my mind, and I assume are shared in same way via other minds that I perceive through my mind, as well.

That we can have ideas about them does not take away from the fact that they objectively exist.

So, this substantiates my claim. You are only conveying ideas about alleged things, which is what I fully anticipated.

In what way does my statement substantiate your claim? If you are unable to discern the existence of elephants and the other things I mention as real, then... you may have a problem, I'm afraid.

And your presumptions of substance given the reliance on physical self as real, unsubstantiated as 'fact' is not all that interesting to the philosopher in me. Unreasonable to the theologist in me. Known to rest foremost, if not entirely, on faith.

You are not making any sense, Acim. If you cannot distinguish dreams and fantasies from reality, I believe you are suffering from delusion.
 

Kartari

Active Member
Hi Acim,

You could call it that. I'd call it contemplation, intuition, knowledge and reason.

Then you admit that you can not discern the difference between ideas you merely imagined from ideas you subjectively believe to be true? That faith, or wishful thinking, is your only means for deciding what you deem to be real?

I think I have acute awareness of the overlap between the two, and the denials that think the two don't work hand in hand. I'm glad to continue this cause all you're doing is throwing out lofty assertions without really anything to back them up. It's always interesting when fans of science distance their assertions from the fundamental philosophy that science is clearly based on, but fascinating when the fundamental faith is denied. I relish such a discussion.

On the contrary and from what you seem to be saying, you have basically admitted you can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality, or between what you imagine to be real vs. what is actually real. This does not instill me with confidence that you can discern reality from fantasy.

I don't have the time to give a science lesson here, but you can look up the scientific method and learn what science actually encompasses (hint: it's not merely sitting around imagining things to be true). Furthermore, I find it a bit disturbing that you claim to not be able to discern as real elephants and the myriad other things I listed. As already explained, reality is defined as what is actually existent, and as existent independently of what is thought about it. Physical reality fits the bill. However unreal you might find elephants, when one steps on your toe there are bad and very real consequences to your toe. I'm sure it occurs to you what those consequences might entail because I am sure you understand that getting your toe stepped on by an elephant is a very real and painful phenomenon, which occurs independently from what you think about it. Claiming it to be unreal is to claim that you could experience no pain whatsoever in such a scenario with mental imagery perhaps, or that your toe could get out of that unscathed by the power of your mind (as in when controlling a dream), or a host of other things.

In short, in claiming that physical existence is unreal, you are claiming that physical existence is entirely dependent on the mind, which is demonstrably untrue.

And whose mind at that? Yours? Mine? Do you believe I am a figment of your imagination, "typing" back at you? That a phantom of your mind is reading this post right now, or typing a response to it? If I imagine a banana will appear in my hand, and if you simultaneously imagine an apple will appear in the same hand, which one appears? Or do both appear?

I would bet money than neither appears... not merely because we are thinking about them appearing, at least. Why not? Because unlike in a dream which depends on the mind alone, physical reality operates independently of our minds.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Yes. Like most humans, I can.

That we can have ideas about them does not take away from the fact that they objectively exist.

You are misusing the word fact here, as objectively exist is truly an assumption.

In what way does my statement substantiate your claim? If you are unable to discern the existence of elephants and the other things I mention as real, then... you may have a problem, I'm afraid.

I do not mistake my faith in physical existence for such arrogant assumptions as reality and objectivity. Whatever reasonable discussion there is to be had about such assumptions, I very likely can keep up. The one that takes what is faith, and takes ideas which clearly are given ALL meaning from human consciousness and assumes facts that exist objectively is what I call arrogance that cannot be backed up with true objectivity. Thus far, you haven't even come close to doing so.

You are not making any sense, Acim. If you cannot distinguish dreams and fantasies from reality, I believe you are suffering from delusion.

That's fine, but that's entirely on you. Seems such judgments are very becoming of your understandings of 'reality.'
 
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