Lack Of Education Leads To Lost Dreams And Low Income For Many Jehovah's Witnesses

[Hockeycowboy]

Because it's a dark side of the JW collective that often gets brushed under the rug a lot, imo. Maybe not what the OP was talking about, but adding to an overall environment of conformity and isolationism I feel permeates most if not all the congregations I've ever been to.


The latter. I studied with JWs for a number of years (never baptized), in three different congregations in two states, and also have close friends who are or were part of the organization.


After I decided to stop studying and stop attending meetings I only had a very few number of people who didn't lose touch with me. And most of them were admittedly much more liberal in their beliefs than the norm (or at least main-line JW doctrine.)


Yes, both as an insider and an outsider. During their private and public moments. And there's a difference, in my experience. A front that is meant to impress, to proselytize to outsiders. When I was going, everyone carried Watchtower and Awake literature and looked for times and places they could leave them with people, and logged it, and any door-to-door hours. Some even had part-time or full-time 'jobs' called Pioneer positions where they have a literal quota of literature and hours they must fulfill to keep the position. Being a JW, in my experience, teaches you to be a very good salesperson. Not necessarily a good person.


We have more LDS than JWs here, as well as Amish communities, fulfilling the same tasks with the same sort of reputation. I'm not saying that JWs can't or won't be the consummate cordial professional. Just that it's a pretty poor representation of what the inside life is, in my experience. And I still have JW friends, don't get me wrong, there is exceptions. But I also have JWs that I stopped associating with because they let their non-JW daughter think that her brother went missing, when really he just wanted to separate from his wife against policy and took off for a while to think on things. They figured letting their daughter think he was missing was better than letting her be in a position to 'tempt him during this fragile time.'


Like I said, I'm using it more as an example of the sort of insular nature and closed-off feel kids may have within the organization.

That I think the overall lack of higher learning in JWs is symptomatic of a larger problem of this insular nature.

A pioneer literature "quota"? No such thing.

If you're willing to present this untruth as a fact, how do you expect others to trust the veracity of your other statements, on this topic anyway?

BTW, Jesus had no higher learning, neither did His Apostles. In fact, they were called "men unlettered and ordinary." Would you have felt the same way about them? Do you?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

So, every time a discusion about Judaism, Islam, Unitarianism, Trinitarianism, etc gets brought up, there's you, doing your righteous bit for humanity with 'They're against Lesbianism?'

If I think it's relevant to the topic then yeah, of course.

What did you expect? JWs believe deeply that they're on a mission from God. The Elder that visits me comes round less often now because their magazines have gone digital...... we're friends but our discussions probably irritate us both and cause us to study more. He says that whilst most 'nice' people just smile and agree, hiding their feelings, he and I discuss warmly. We've taught each other a lot.

As I said, I still have JW friends and we still tall openly. They know my feelings about the organization and I know theirs. Those who lost touch weren't interested in having the sort of relationship you and that elder have.

Gosh! How dreadful! So they were good salespersons? How wicked! So salesperson might mean something bad to you? ..... you begin to surface as a bit of a skeptic, possibly? Goodness knows what you think about the ruthless, cold, careless, badbad, World. !!!!!

Being a bit dramatic aren't you? Being a salesperson isn't an innately bad thing, being a person whose entire identity gets subsumed by a need to put this front on display, not being honest because they don't want to be rejected isn't healthy. And I saw this sort of behavior among JWs young and old. Some that ended up leaving (even some that ended up staying) told me they felt like they couldn't be themselves, and we're scared of losing the only community they knew for petty things like not preaching enough, being gay, getting out of a bad marriage, accepting a more allegorical interpretation of the scriptures. It was so scary to them because the community is so insular and isolated.

I think that you're just biased against them, and your title-thingy suggests a heavy agenda. You just don't get it, do you? JW children would be very very unlikely to bully a weak kid, or psycho-bully a thick kid, or hurt each other, or steal from each other, or slander each other, or... or ...... be like usual kids. For some kids school is like Hell-on-Earth, and nobody gives a damn until a tragedy occurs.....

Maybe you're being a bit biased against atheists here? I can and have defended a number of Christian churches and other religions, and I've moderated content leveled at JWS, too, which is clearly over the line.
However, the fact is that I have experience that tells me JW kids, that I've met, are not as healthy as meets the eye. Just because they don't bully doesn't mean they're well adjusted.

Ah..... so what you wrote about 'they lost touch from me' was also 'I lost touch from them'. Is that the worst situation you found......... 'Siblings lose touch through lost faith!!' ?

No, I'm talking again, about insular and isolationist behavior damaging relationships. You really see 'parents let child believe sibling is missing out of fear that child will say something which causes sibling to leave their church' as equivalent to 'siblings lose touch through lost faith'?

I honestly don't think I'd have wanted you to take my kids on a train ride.

Where'd this come from?

My late wife was a bahai and bahai is anti-gay etc, and other stuff, but I get the feeling that your atheism could show itself in your non-verbal-gestures and body-language. I know a bit about same and kids are subliminally very sensitive to this, more than researchers might have discovered

I'm glad none of your kids were gay then, that could have been super awkward.
Once again though, you seem to be kinda biased against atheism here.

I would not want to live in a JW theocracy, not that I'm in love with present arrangements; but the issue here is that JW kids seem to be very balanced, contented, happy and most kids out there are unbalanced, discontent, unhappy..... even their language shows their crushed feelings........ Over here 'Very very impressive' is described as 'Well Sick'. In fact that's a bit like the World that we are preparing kids for...... 'Well Sick'.

I've already explained my view on JW kids and why I think they're not as happy or content as you might be thinking. I won't repeat it here. I've said my piece. If you disagree that's totally fine.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

A pioneer literature "quota"? No such thing.

If you're willing to present this untruth as a fact, how do you expect others to trust the veracity of your other statements, on this topic anyway?

BTW, Jesus had no higher learning, neither did His Apostles. In fact, they were called "men unlettered and ordinary." Would you have felt the same way about them? Do you?

There was a literature log and hourly quota when I was going. Stop trying to pick nits. I was there, in the car, with my leather bag and my magazines and my NWT with my name signed into it. I was there. These experiences were mine.

As for your last paragraph, I don't believe the accounts of Jesus and the apostles are historically accurate, but there was no such thing as higher education equivalency in the region at the time, but trade skills and apprenticeships were the norm. Higher education, if there was such a thing, was usually temples based instruction. Something Jesus had, being as he could read at the synagogue. That was more than most people got. (Especially women, but that's another conversation.)

Today low levels of college education are disastrous for communities, as it leads to a drop in skilled labor ability, and a higher ratio of low income population. While nobody should be shamed by having a unskilled labor job, intentionally suppressing (even through suggestion) higher learning is a worrying sign.

 

[Deeje]

Have you noticed that the original OP article is only about the American JHW community is suffering from poverty and lost opportunity of social and material progress due to the hostile attitude of the Watchtower organization towards higher education? The experiences and polls of US JHW show it. Why are your Australian experiences relevant to this discussion at all?

Its relevant because JW's are a global brotherhood who all believe the same things about money and materialism and our attitude towards employment doesn't usually include university degrees in order to earn a living.
Where do you get the idea that we are "hostile" towards higher education? We prefer not to attend universities where immorality, drug abuse and filthy language are commonplace and have been for decades. There are other ways to gain an education...ever heard of apprenticeships? Online courses? Tafe? (short certificate courses) We prefer a spiritual education because that is where the true wealth is. God comes first in our lives. He might not come first in yours. That is your choice.

Also please show scientific evidence that JHW people are happier than the rich folk.
Here is the income you need for attaining your optimal happiness in US.
Here Is The Income Level At Which Money Won't Make You Any Happier In Each State | The Huffington Post

According to science?

Is everything science to you?

You think material things and income make you happy? If that was true, then there would be no consumerism. The transient nature of the "happiness" must be maintained by the next purchase or else it disappears. True happiness comes from good relationships, not an endless stream of "things".

Jesus said something else that makes perfect sense is..."there is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving".
Those who see themselves as 'receivers' are never happy. Its the 'givers', the philanthropists and the generous souls who attain great pleasure in giving without a single thought of reciprocation. Selfishness breeds only discontent...and that leads to misery. Giving of oneself to God also brings great happiness.

Jesus (as interpreted by you) was wrong, just as he was in so many other things. Utterly totally, fundamentally and absolutely wrong.

There I said it in purple too.

You are entitled to your opinion......but you could be "Utterly totally, fundamentally and absolutely wrong" as well. But you knew that....right?

 

[sayak83]

Its relevant because JW's are a global brotherhood who all believe the same things about money and materialism and our attitude towards employment doesn't usually include university degrees in order to earn a living.
Where do you get the idea that we are "hostile" towards higher education? We prefer not to attend universities where immorality, drug abuse and filthy language are commonplace and have been for decades. There are other ways to gain an education...ever heard of apprenticeships? Online courses? Tafe? (short certificate courses) We prefer a spiritual education because that is where the true wealth is. God comes first in our lives. He might not come first in yours. That is your choice.

According to science?

Is everything science to you?

You think material things and income make you happy? If that was true, then there would be no consumerism. The transient nature of the "happiness" must be maintained by the next purchase or else it disappears. True happiness comes from good relationships, not an endless stream of "things".

Jesus said something else that makes perfect sense is..."there is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving".
Those who see themselves as 'receivers' are never happy. Its the 'givers', the philanthropists and the generous souls who attain great pleasure in giving without a single thought of reciprocation. Selfishness breeds only discontent...and that leads to misery. Giving of oneself to God also brings great happiness.



You are entitled to your opinion......but you could be "Utterly totally, fundamentally and absolutely wrong" as well. But you knew that....right?

I am unlikely to be totally fundamentally and absolutely wrong as empirical investigation based on scientific method backs me up on this. Hence its not my opinion, but a rational deduction based on available scientific evidence. Your beliefs on the other had are evidence-less opinions based on your subjective assessments (just like in evolution). This subjective assessment includes your faith in the Bible and the JW interpretation of it.

Whenever possible, I stick with science. My goal of course is to make ALL aspects of life and experience fall within the purview of science as far as possible. For, it is the surest means of knowledge one can trust and rely on the most.

 

[Deeje]

Whenever possible, I stick with science. My goal of course is to make ALL aspects of life and experience fall within the purview of science as far as possible. For, it is the surest means of knowledge one can trust and rely on the most.

I am afraid that one day, in the not too distant future, that the God of heaven will reveal to you exactly where you have placed your trust and I believe that you are going to be mightily disappointed that your science god let you down so badly. You will see how much of your precious knowledge was manufactured and completely unreliable. You won't be able to say you didn't know.

 

[sayak83]

I am afraid that one day, in the not too distant future, that the God of heaven will reveal to you exactly where you have placed your trust and I believe that you are going to be mightily disappointed that your science god let you down so badly. You will see how much of your precious knowledge was manufactured and completely unreliable. You won't be able to say you didn't know.

I am afraid that one day, in the not too distant future, that the one true God of Hinduism will reveal to you exactly where you have placed your trust and I believe that you are going to be mightily disappointed that your Bible god let you down so badly. You will see how much of your precious faith was manufactured and completely unreliable. You won't be able to say you didn't know.

 

[oldbadger]

Maybe you're being a bit biased against atheists here? I can and have defended a number of Christian churches and other religions, and I've moderated content leveled at JWS, too, which is clearly over the line.

I am a Deist..........

However, the fact is that I have experience that tells me JW kids, that I've met, are not as healthy as meets the eye. Just because they don't bully doesn't mean they're well adjusted.

.... not as healthy as meets the eye'...?
I could not guess what group of kids generally impress you, then.

[I'm glad none of your kids were gay then, that could have been super awkward.

What a big mistake there! You don't have the first clue about my kids' sexuality. That's the 'thing', you seem to make very bad 'sweeping' judgements .... about kids.... is all.

Once again though, you seem to be kinda biased against atheism here.

I am a Deist....... many RF Deists are..... atheists!

I've already explained my view on JW kids and why I think they're not as happy or content as you might be thinking. I won't repeat it here. I've said my piece. If you disagree that's totally fine.

Oh alright....... it would seem that I have been kind of ..... dismissed.....

 

[David T]

Lack Of Education Leads To Lost Dreams And Low Income For Many Jehovah's Witnesses



The article, which is well worth reading in it's entirety, is based on interviews with over 100 people who grew up as Jehovah's Witnesses.

Do parents and/or religious leaders have a moral right to limit a child's education in such a way that the child is handicapped when pursuing his or her dreams? Note: I'm not talking about a legal right here, but instead, a moral right.

If you think parents and/or religious leaders have a moral right to limit a child's education, do you also believe the government possesses the same right? If not, why not?

It is an ironic twist since all contemporary religions are literacy education based. There are extreme issues with literacy and education but trying to control it is simply living in one's own squared up box ignoring plumb. Carpenter terms. That, like any group phenomena can spin abstractively in on itself, even science has similar issues at theoretically levels. It's like they forget to breathe.

 

[Nakosis]

Lack Of Education Leads To Lost Dreams And Low Income For Many Jehovah's Witnesses



The article, which is well worth reading in it's entirety, is based on interviews with over 100 people who grew up as Jehovah's Witnesses.

Do parents and/or religious leaders have a moral right to limit a child's education in such a way that the child is handicapped when pursuing his or her dreams? Note: I'm not talking about a legal right here, but instead, a moral right.

If you think parents and/or religious leaders have a moral right to limit a child's education, do you also believe the government possesses the same right? If not, why not?

They have a legal right, until they are 18 though I suppose that could change. I don't think moral rights have much play here. I think we should support, encourage education and criticize those who don't. Allow a child to pursue the education which interests them. No guarantee that's going to lead to a better life but I think there is a much better chance for it.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Lack Of Education Leads To Lost Dreams And Low Income For Many Jehovah's Witnesses



The article, which is well worth reading in it's entirety, is based on interviews with over 100 people who grew up as Jehovah's Witnesses.

Do parents and/or religious leaders have a moral right to limit a child's education in such a way that the child is handicapped when pursuing his or her dreams? Note: I'm not talking about a legal right here, but instead, a moral right.

If you think parents and/or religious leaders have a moral right to limit a child's education, do you also believe the government possesses the same right? If not, why not?

The moral right is triumphed by the Bible, education.

The legal right is pursued by the JW's, cultic suppression.

 

[Oeste]

Hmmmm....did no one ever think to ask a JW about this issue instead of getting second hand stories from the disgruntled ones who felt like they were missing out on something wonderful?

They sure did. But as usual, and as clearly stated in the article, the Watchtower refused to comment. As Mr. Ploeg reported:

"Witness leadership declined to speak to NPR for this story"

You'd think that JW's were some sort of anti-education dumbos who want to keep their kids in ignorance. The two leading stories in that article are not the whole story.....by a long shot.

Well, I think they were offered the opportunity to testify but all the reporter got was a video.

Do you know the difference between not being "encouraged" to do something and being "forbidden" to do it?

Absolutely, and when you grow up under the roof of JW parents, you may not only be discouraged from attending college, but prohibited as well.

I had a friend, a JW who wanted to pursue higher education. His mother was against it. After service, an elder counseled him from being "disobedient to parents". So now higher education wasn't only discouraged by his mom, it now became something prohibited by God.

The reasons why university education is not encouraged is mainly because of the moral and spiritual climate that are common at such schools of higher learning. Can anyone doubt the validity of this statement?

It's not only the validity, it's the fact your Organization would make such an argument at all.

If your ministry school leaves students woefully unprepared to enter college then how much more are they equally inept to enter the world?

Look, your Organization has the truth, remember? It has the "whole armor of God" (Ephesians 6:11-20) ready to lay waste to all the enemy's strongholds and fortresses:

We tear down arguments, and every presumption set up against the knowledge of God; and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. (2 Cor 10:5)​

Your Organization, if it had "the truth" the bible describes, should have never been concerned about sending young men and women to college. In other words, universities and colleges should have been actively discouraging JW's from attending, not the other way around Deeje!

But higher education never leads to happiness when all it does is fuel a desire for a materialistic lifestyle.

Where do you get these ideas from?

First, most people I know don't go to college in the hope that it leads to happiness. Most hope it leads to education.

Second, higher education tends to lead to higher income, not a higher sense of materialism. If you're aware of any valid study which shows the only thing a higher education does is fuel a desire for a materialistic lifestyle please share it.

What makes you think that we don't care about the education of our children? It is the law that they must be educated, so we encourage our children to make the most of their school years and use that knowledge to serve a better 'boss'.

Then college dorms should be extremely fertile recruiting ground for the Watchtower and not a place where their spiritual soldiers come to be slain.

The wages he pays can't be matched by any human employer, and he has fringe benefits that most people would die for.

Not sure what this had to do with college. No Christian, in college or out, is expecting their employer to match an offer from God.

These are the sorts of articles that the gullible swallow because they can't be bothered to find out the actual truth.

I'm glad I didn't swallow the WT argument and decided to go. If I'm not mistaken, Yahweh didn't warn his son to avoid the wise men of the world lest he and his followers be led astray. And no, you don't have to be "gullible" to fall for WT arguments, but it sure helps to be insecure.

 

[capumetu]

I have never regretted being one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have lived in the world and was not raised a Christian, however being one of Jehovah's people is the best way of life in my opinion. And when your unrighteous riches fail you, we still have Jehovah. We are truly the rich ones.


capumetu @yours.com no space after u

 

[Oeste]

I have never regretted being one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have lived in the world and was not raised a Christian, however being one of Jehovah's people is the best way of life in my opinion. And when your unrighteous riches fail you, we still have Jehovah. We are truly the rich ones.

Thanks capumetu, but I see nothing "unrighteously rich" about seeking a good education.

BTW, you can still leave or have God in your life whether or not you seek higher education. In my case, the ability to use education to critically analyze my religious doctrines did not make my faith weaker, but stronger. Yes, some of my old doctrines fell to the wayside, but my faith was never in the religious doctrines of the Watchtower or any other church but has always been in Christ. It just took me awhile to realize it.

 

[Nakosis]

I have never regretted being one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have lived in the world and was not raised a Christian, however being one of Jehovah's people is the best way of life in my opinion. And when your unrighteous riches fail you, we still have Jehovah. We are truly the rich ones.


capumetu @yours.com no space after u

To which my question would be do you believe you have a moral obligation to discourage a/your child from pursing an education which might conflict with your religious beliefs?

 

[Oeste]

I think that you're just biased against them, and your title-thingy suggests a heavy agenda. You just don't get it, do you? JW children would be very very unlikely to bully a weak kid, or psycho-bully a thick kid, or hurt each other, or steal from each other, or slander each other, or... or ...... be like usual kids. For some kids school is like Hell-on-Earth, and nobody gives a damn until a tragedy occurs.....

I would agree that JW children are extremely unlikely to physically bully a weaker kid, but they are far more likely to engage in emotional and psychological bullying than their traditional Christian counterparts. It's a behavior encouraged and endorsed by their Organization as "shunning".

 

[oldbadger]

I would agree that JW children are extremely unlikely to physically bully a weaker kid, but they are far more likely to engage in emotional and psychological bullying than their traditional Christian counterparts. It's a behavior encouraged and endorsed by their Organization as "shunning".

No....... I cannot accept that JW kids are Psycho-bullies. I know that JWs shun certain folks, but then other religions estrange people as well. But they would never take advantage of a weak minded, weak charactered, socially unadapted or disabled kid in any way.
Most parents would like their children to shun certain undesirable types, you know.
I'll bet that even you (and I) distance ourselves (shun) from certain types, don't we?
I have always been very impressed by JW kids and youth, even though I don't support their faith. But a % of Fastp[stream high-intellect kids around here seem to be very snobbish and stuck-up. I really hate that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In my religious upbringing, getting a good college level education (or business proficiency as the case may be) as well as having good morals, is more important than believing in God. A young person's task in his teen and young adult years is to focus on learning. God, theology etc. is after. The intellect well-honed by learning and the heart well-honed by ethical education, builds the kind of person who is capable of forming correct beliefs and understanding them appropriately regarding both spiritual and material realm and hence can act for the good of themselves and the world. Without such a well trained mind and heart, the possibility of falling prey to delusions and false beliefs is near certain.

This also leads to material prosperity of course.
How income varies among U.S. religious groups

Would be interesting to see that consider graduate level education.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The intellect well-honed by learning and the heart well-honed by ethical education, builds the kind of person who is capable of forming correct beliefs and understanding them appropriately

Educated people form "correct beliefs"? Really? So then we should observe unity among the world's academia in how to solve the economical and social problems facing people today. Is this what we see? Hardly....if anything, it ultimately destroys humility and creates more arrogance and disunity, evident by examining these issues on the political world stage, led by educated men; everyone thinks their way is best!

And a 'well-honed heart'? Jeremiah 17:9 doesn't agree, not thru higher education, anyway. (I didn't know colleges offered a Major in Ethics; maybe in Social Psychology? Uh....nope.)

 

[Oeste]

No....... I cannot accept that JW kids are Psycho-bullies. I know that JWs shun certain folks, but then other religions estrange people as well.

I think the psycho bullying, as an Organization strategy, has been pretty well established. And I agree that other religions like the Westboro Baptist Church do this as well.

But they would never take advantage of a weak minded, weak charactered, socially unadapted or disabled kid in any way.

I don’t see them as any different from other religions in this regard. If they see a weak minded, weak charactered, socially unadapted or disabled kid willing to join their Organization they’ll sign him up in a moment.

I think the difference between Jehovah Witnesses and other, traditional religions is that they’ll work to immediately isolate this individual from families and friends…unless that friend or family member is willing to come along for the ride. They will give smiles and attentions to everything this person says, and shower him with praise for his thoughtful questions and responses. They will work diligently to replace his friends with members of the congregation, and they will implant doubts about the spirituality or motives of anyone who complains or disagrees with their teachings.

Once the person becomes a member though, the only real questions you are expected to ask are the ones at the bottom of the page, and the only "truthful" responses you are expected to give or accept are those in total agreement with the Organization.

Most parents would like their children to shun certain undesirable types, you know.
I'll bet that even you (and I) distance ourselves (shun) from certain types, don't we?

I think it depends on what you mean by “undesirable types”. For instance, I never told my daughter not to play with the kids next door because they’re Catholic or Presbyterian. Neither did I express my hope that God would spare the house of an "undesirable type" so we could all move in, and my church never leafed the neighborhood suggesting God was going to destroy the undesirable church and its parishioners across the street.

Yet Watchtower children are exposed to this from infancy. It's reminiscent of how some Islamic school texts talk about Jews.

I have always been very impressed by JW kids and youth, even though I don't support their faith.

I was impressed by how they could completely ignore and ostracize those who had been friends for decades, even family members, simply because they took to disagreement with the Organization. I was also impressed at how easily pejoratives like “opposer” and “apostate” can roll off the lips once a person leaves.

But a % of Fastp[stream high-intellect kids around here seem to be very snobbish and stuck-up. I really hate that.

I agree we have our share of snobs and stuck ups, but I think it spreads across the intellectual spectrum.