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Land of Israel

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
@Deeje, please note again that you simply have not dealt with my questions to you dealing with the Law. So, will you define what you mean by "God's Law", and then deal with why God gave the Law to Jews, told us to follow it, punished us if we didn't, but then supposedly turned around and then decided that the Law really wasn't really that important after all? You keep avoiding these questions, and I think it's pretty obvious why, namely that it makes not one iota of sense.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Even some Christian theologians believe that Jesus will only be the Messiah when he returns and fulfills all prophecies, which he obviously hasn't done thus far. Therefore, it's not only Jews that are waiting.

I am one of those Christians....but I am waiting for the finale, not the beginning. (Isaiah 46:9-10)
Jesus' role as Messiah was two-fold. Initially, he came as a prophet to correct his errant nation, like many prophets before him. God told Moses that a 'prophet like himself' was to come. He would speak in the name of YHWH, which Jesus did in spite of the fact that the Jews had stopped even uttering the divine name. (John 17:6-10)

Deuteronomy 18:18-19.....
"I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. יחנָבִיא אָקִים לָהֶם מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם כָּמוֹךָ וְנָתַתִּי דְבָרַי בְּפִיו וְדִבֶּר אֲלֵיהֶם אֵת כָּל אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוֶּנּוּ:
19 And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him. יטוְהָיָה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר לֹא יִשְׁמַע אֶל דְּבָרַי אֲשֶׁר יְדַבֵּר בִּשְׁמִי אָנֹכִי אֶדְרשׁ מֵעִמּוֹ:" (Complete Tanach)

Psalm 110:1-2 King David tells us....
Adonai says to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies
your footstool.”
2 Adonai will send your powerful scepter out from Tziyon, so that you will rule over
your enemies around you."
(CJB)

or

The word of the Lord to my master; "Wait for My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool at your feet." אלְדָוִד מִזְמוֹר נְאֻם יְהֹוָה | לַאדֹנִי שֵׁב לִימִינִי עַד אָשִׁית אֹיְבֶיךָ הֲדֹם לְרַגְלֶיךָ:
2 The staff of your might the Lord will send from Zion; rule in the midst of your enemies. במַטֵּה עֻזְּךָ יִשְׁלַח יְהֹוָה מִצִיּוֹן רְדֵה בְּקֶרֶב (Complete Tanach)

Notice that David's "Lord" or "Master" (the coming Messiah) was to "sit" or "wait" at 'God's right hand' for action on God's part before he was to "rule in the midst of [his] enemies".

The NT says that when Christ died, he was resurrected to heaven, obviously to begin the 'waiting' period before his authority as King on this earth began. (Daniel 7:13-14; Daniel 2:44) The action that God was to undertake was to make Messiah's enemies 'a stool for his feet'; this was to take place before he was to begin his rulership "in the midst" of his enemies here on earth. That was the second part of the prophesy. Christ promised to return to take his "chosen ones" to heaven and to separate all peoples on earth into only two categories....."sheep" or "goats". The sheep inherit life....the goats go to their death. (Matthew 25:31-33)
He was then to rule his obedient subjects on earth, bringing back the paradise conditions that Adam and his wife forfeited by their disobedience. (Revelation 21:1-4)

Also, I really don't get into this Messiah stuff because I'm a skeptic.

Skeptics are those who are "not easily convinced; having doubts or reservations"....I understand why, because Christianity has been so badly represented over the centuries by those who never lived up to their claims to be Christ's disciples, following the model he left. This is why, when the judgment day comes, Jesus will say to those ones..."I never knew you! Get away from me you workers of lawlessness". (Matthew 7:21-23)

I believe the Bible teaches that only those who look for God with the right attitude will find him. (Acts 17:26-27; John 6:44)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@Deeje, please note again that you simply have not dealt with my questions to you dealing with the Law. So, will you define what you mean by "God's Law", and then deal with why God gave the Law to Jews, told us to follow it, punished us if we didn't, but then supposedly turned around and then decided that the Law really wasn't really that important after all? You keep avoiding these questions, and I think it's pretty obvious why, namely that it makes not one iota of sense.

Jesus said that the entire law was summed up in just two....."Love God with your whole heart, mind and strength...and to love your neighbor as yourself". You cannot break any law of God without contravening one or both of those laws.

The ceremonial laws related to sacrifice were no longer necessary when Christ laid down his life, paying the debt that Adam left for his children. When the debt was paid, there was no longer a need to sacrifice weekly.....or ever again. Adam's children were released permanently, their sins forgiven on the basis of Christ's blood rather than the blood of animals. What is complicated about that?
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
And many Jews have seen the benefit of embracing Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism. We know. But the only ones who are deceitful in their efforts are the Christians. I guess in following with the tradition of 1 Cor. 9:20, Eusebius and Martin Luther.

Since Messiah was to come from Israel, specifically from the tribe of Judah, it would be difficult indeed for anyone from another faith to claim to be the Messiah. :shrug: I see no deceit, but more proof that "Christianity" (not Christendom) is the true religion.

Paul's words to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 9:20-23) indicate why Paul found common ground with those to whom he preached.....the "good news" was to be shared with people of all nations in order for the promise God made to Abraham to be fulfilled. (Genesis 18:18-19)

1 Corinthians 9:20-23:
"To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. 21 To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, in order to gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, so that I might by all possible means save some. 23 But I do all things for the sake of the good news, in order to share it with others."

Do you detect a sinister motive here? I am grateful that this once proud Pharisee saw the error of his ways and humbly accepted correction...unlike many of the proud leaders of ancient Israel who had a problem keeping God's commands, which resulted in leading the whole nation off on a wrong course, many times. The whole nation was then punished, setting precedents for future action. They never learned.

Eusebius was the man who called Emperor Constantine "most beloved by God," described the fourth-century church as being brought to "a state of uniform harmony," and called Jews "a people who had slain the prophets and the Lord himself."

He is talking about Christendom, not Christianity. Constantine was the founder of Christendom with his proclamation that Roman Catholicism was to be the state religion of the Roman Empire. The problem was, it wasn't Christianity, but a foul mix of paganism with "Christian" labels stuck over pagan beliefs and practices. This was foretold in Christian scripture.

Martin Luther began a religious revolution, but it was not his intention. He merely wanted to correct his errant church and convince its leaders that they had lost their way. His thesis changed the course of history....but not for the better. All the reformation did was break Christianity up into even more bickering factions. Christ was never in those churches.

The only good thing it accomplished was that it stripped the Roman Church of its stranglehold on the masses, and released God's word into the hands of the common man.

More like, because its easier to catch Jews when you call yourself a Jew [pretend to] talk like a Jew and [seem to] act like a Jew. We've all seen it. If it was about Paul, they wouldn't be acting like Ashkenazi Jews.

As I see it, Jews are as fragmented as any other religion. There is no evidence of God's blessing on any of their sects to make anyone think that God is with them especially, anymore than he is with any other nation who sheds innocent blood. (Isaiah 1:15)

Sectarianism is always the result of some person claiming to know better. :rolleyes:

I don't believe that God is interested in performance for the sake of it....he is way more interested in "why" you do something than "that" you just mindlessly perform some ritual. He doesn't want puppets....he wants those who can worship him with their whole being....including their intelligence.


Who is "we"?

Because its obvious.

Obvious to whom?
297.gif
Not me.
no.gif
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Jesus' role as Messiah was two-fold.
But I notice that you sidestepped the many verses that Jesus didn't fulfill, therefore that he's the supposed messiah is very much premature at best.

Skeptics are those who are "not easily convinced; having doubts or reservations"....I understand why, because Christianity has been so badly represented over the centuries by those who never lived up to their claims to be Christ's disciples, following the model he left.
That's not the reason at all for me. I'm a scientist, and as scientists we thrive or die on objectively-derived evidence, and with the area of theology there largely is none to be found. Surveys of scientists not only find that skeptics are in the majority (mostly agnostics) but that even the minority that are theists are usually rather unconventional, such as Einstein (pantheist/panentheist) was.

Also, if you haven't read it before, maybe check out my signature statement at the bottom of this post to see where I'm coming from.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Jesus said that the entire law was summed up in just two....."Love God with your whole heart, mind and strength...and to love your neighbor as yourself". You cannot break any law of God without contravening one or both of those laws.
Simply repeating the above doesn't really deal with what I asked you. There are 613 Laws given by God according to Torah-- not two.

For example, do you keep kosher? There are several Laws from Torah that cover that, so it makes not one iota of sense to say you follow the Law and yet not follow the Law, and no song & dance changes that reality.

The ceremonial laws related to sacrifice were no longer necessary when Christ laid down his life, paying the debt that Adam left for his children.
Again, you've swallowed a piece of nonsense that the JW leaders have taught you because there simply are not any statements in Torah saying anything about "ceremonial laws". Nada. nyet. nothing. Very much the reverse because it states we are to follow the entire Law and not pick & choose.

What is complicated about that?
It's not "complicated"-- it's simply anti-scriptural. One simply cannot believe in the Bible and then turn around and ignore what it says when it's inconvenient.

However, assuming you're a Gentile, you are not bound by the Law so you're off the hook.

Oh, btw, what part of Jesus was "sacrificed": the human part or the supposed divine part? Ever hear of something called a "theological construct" by chance?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
But I notice that you sidestepped the many verses that Jesus didn't fulfill, therefore that he's the supposed messiah is very much premature at best.

OUTSTANDING PROPHECIES CONCERNING JESUS AND THEIR FULFILLMENT

(This chart does not translate well in copy form but can be viewed at Messiah — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY towards the bottom of the page.) I will have to post it in two parts....

Part 1)

Prophecy Event Fulfillment

Ge 49:10 Born of the tribe Mt 1:2-16; Lu 3:23-33; Heb 7:14

of Judah

Ps 132:11; From the family of Mt 1:1, 6-16; 9:27; Ac 13:22, 23;

Isa 9:7; David the son of Ro 1:3; 15:8, 12

11:1, Jesse

11:10

Mic 5:2 Born in Bethlehem Lu 2:4-11; Joh 7:42

Isa 7:14 Born of a virgin Mt 1:18-23; Lu 1:30-35

Jer 31:15 Babes killed after Mt 2:16-18

his birth

Ho 11:1 Called out of Mt 2:15

Egypt

Mal 3:1; Way prepared Mt 3:1-3; 11:10-14;

4:5; before 17:10-13; Lu 1:17, 76;

Isa 40:3 3:3-6; 7:27; Joh 1:20-23;

3:25-28; Ac 13:24; 19:4

Isa 61:1, 2 Commissioned Lu 4:18-21

Isa 9:1, 2 Ministry caused Mt 4:13-16

people in Naphtali

and Zebulun to see

great light

Ps 78:2 Spoke with Mt 13:11-13, 31-35

illustrations

Isa 53:4 Carried our Mt 8:16, 17

sicknesses

Ps 69:9 Zealous for Mt 21:12, 13; Joh 2:13-17

Jehovah’s house

Isa 42:1-4 As Jehovah’s Mt 12:14-21

servant, would not

wrangle in streets

Isa 53:1 Not believed in Joh 12:37, 38; Ro 10:11, 16

Zec 9:9; Entry into Mt 21:1-9; Mr 11:7-11;

Ps 118:26 Jerusalem on colt Lu 19:28-38;

of an ***; hailed Joh 12:12-15

as king and one

coming in Jehovah’s

name

Isa 28:16; Rejected but Mt 21:42, 45, 46; Ac 3:14;

53:3; becomes chief 4:11; 1Pe 2:7

Ps 69:8; cornerstone

118:22, 23

Isa 8:14, 15 Becomes stone of Lu 20:17, 18; Ro 9:31-33

stumbling
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Part 2)

Ps 41:9; One apostle Mt 26:47-50; Joh 13:18, 26-30;

109:8 unfaithful, betrays Ac 1:16-20

him

Zec 11:12 Betrayed for 30 Mt 26:15; 27:3-10; Mr 14:10, 11

pieces of silver

Zec 13:7 Disciples scatter Mt 26:31, 56; Joh 16:32

Ps 2:1, 2 Roman powers and Mt 27:1, 2; Mr 15:1, 15;

leaders of Israel Lu 23:10-12; Ac 4:25-28

act together against

anointed of Jehovah

Isa 53:8 Tried and condemned Mt 26:57-68; 27:1, 2, 11-26;

Joh 18:12-14, 19-24, 28-40;

19:1-16

Ps 27:12 Use of false Mt 26:59-61; Mr 14:56-59

witnesses

Isa 53:7 Silent before Mt 27:12-14; Mr 14:61;

accusers 15:4, 5; Lu 23:9

Ps 69:4 Hated without cause Lu 23:13-25; Joh 15:24, 25

Isa 50:6; Struck, spit on Mt 26:67; 27:26, 30; Joh 19:3

Mic 5:1

Ps 22:16, ftn

Impaled Mt 27:35; Mr 15:24, 25;

Lu 23:33; Joh 19:18, 23;

20:25, 27

Ps 22:18 Lots cast for Mt 27:35; Joh 19:23, 24

garments

Isa 53:12 Numbered with Mt 26:55, 56; 27:38;

sinners Lu 22:37

Ps 22:7, 8 Reviled while on Mt 27:39-43; Mr 15:29-32

stake

Ps 69:21 Given vinegar and Mt 27:34, 48; Mr 15:23, 36

gall

Ps 22:1 Forsaken by God to Mt 27:46; Mr 15:34

enemies

Ps 34:20; No bones broken Joh 19:33, 36

Ex 12:46

Isa 53:5; Pierced Mt 27:49; Joh 19:34, 37;

Zec 12:10 Re 1:7

Isa 53:5, Dies sacrificial Mt 20:28; Joh 1:29;

8, death to carry away Ro 3:24; 4:25; 1Co 15:3;

11, sins and open way Heb 9:12-15; 1Pe 2:24;

12 to righteous 1Jo 2:2

standing with God

Isa 53:9 Buried with the Mt 27:57-60; Joh 19:38-42

rich

Jon 1:17; In grave parts of Mt 12:39, 40; 16:21; 17:23;

2:10 three days, then 27:64; 28:1-7; Ac 10:40;

resurrected 1Co 15:3-8

Ps 16:8-11, ftn

Raised before Ac 2:25-31; 13:34-37

corruption

Ps 2:7 Jehovah declares Mt 3:16, 17; Mr 1:9-11;

him His Son by Lu 3:21, 22; Ac 13:33;

spirit begetting Ro 1:4; Heb 1:5; 5:5

and by resurrection


No one before or since has fulfilled these prophesies like Jesus did.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That's not the reason at all for me. I'm a scientist, and as scientists we thrive or die on objectively-derived evidence, and with the area of theology there largely is none to be found.

Metis, there is no "objectively-derived evidence" in evolutionary science. That is an illusion. All evidence for the "chain" of evolution is missing the links that make a chain possible. The gaps have never been filled with anything substantial enough to be called a 'fact' in its true definition. Science makes "suggestion" an artform. It is a "belief" if you can't substantiate your theory with facts. Why is that so hard to admit?

How can bias ever lead to objectivity? Either science has the facts that conclusively prove its theory, or they don't. Since they clearly don't, why is it pushed so hard on school children? Who even enters university these days who has doubts about the validity of evolution, having been indoctrinated at a very young and impressionable age?
Do they really know that its based on unprovable assumptions?...on educated guesswork?...on very flimsy 'evidence' interpreted to fit their theory? NO! They believe it is a fact. How many of them could prove it without simply providing evidence for adaptation, rather than the larger macro-evolution that they suggest is 'possible'?

Also, if you haven't read it before, maybe check out my signature statement at the bottom of this post to see where I'm coming from.

Your signature suggests to me that indecision about the existence of God has probably plagued you all your life. So it suits you not to make any decision at all about him. Unfortunately indecision is also counted as a decision. :( We are living at the time when we must make a decision (like it or not). Have you not noticed that the world has gone mad? That means something significant to us believers in Bible prophesy.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
There are 613 Laws given by God according to Torah-- not two.

For example, do you keep kosher? There are several Laws from Torah that cover that, so it makes not one iota of sense to say you follow the Law and yet not follow the Law, and no song & dance changes that reality.

The Mosaic Law applies only to Jews, not Gentiles. Christ said that only two laws are to be observed by all Christians. Jews who wish to keep to the law on circumcision, hygiene and food requirements are free to do so. But these are not incumbent on Gentiles who do not have to convert to Judaism in order to become Christians.

The only "necessary things" for Christians were recorded in Acts 15:28-29:
"For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

All of these things were common practice among Gentiles....sacrificing to idols, eating unbled (non-Kosher) meat and consuming blood, and sexual immorality. All those practices had to stop once they became Christians.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
One simply cannot believe in the Bible and then turn around and ignore what it says when it's inconvenient.

I totally agree. Especially are all Abrahamic faiths, including Christendom, guilty of breaking the the 6th Commandment...."You must not murder". I have heard lots of justification about bloodshed and why its OK to participate in war....but war involves the loss of innocent lives. In Israel, even the accidental manslayer had to pay a penalty under the Law. "Collateral damage" is a man made phrase.....so is "friendly fire". In God's terminology, these do not exist.

Oh, btw, what part of Jesus was "sacrificed": the human part or the supposed divine part? Ever hear of something called a "theological construct" by chance?

No I do not adhere to the "theological construct" if it means seeing Jesus as a God/Man. Jesus was 100% human and died just like any other mortal. If Jesus was God, then he was immortal, and no one can put an immortal to death...not even God.

Jesus died as an exact equivalent of Adam....'a perfect human life offered for another perfect human life' to balance the scales of justice. For every life deliberately taken, an equivalent life was required to be forfeited. (Exodus 24:17-21) Since no perfect (sinless) humans were in existence, Jesus volunteered to take the wrap for Adam's children....paying the debt Adam left, and cancelling it. All of the blood sacrifices in Israel prefigured the blood of the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Animal sacrifices were a temporary measure until the time came for the permanent solution. The figurative blood of the real Passover Lamb on the doorpost of a believer's house. This means salvation.

How can Israel fail to perform their sacrifices according to the law since the first century? Is there a reason why the Temple no longer exists, and why it was never rebuilt? On what basis is forgiveness possible for Jews in this time period?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Metis, there is no "objectively-derived evidence" in evolutionary science.
Absolutely and demonstratively false, and it's no wonder that you deny what the vast majority of scientists throughout the world well know.

And it stands even to just plain old common sense based on general observations, namely that all material objects change over time and genes are material objects. To deny evolution is to deny what we see on an everyday basis.

As I mentioned to you a while back, I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church that taught against evolution, but fortunately, even when I was still in high school, I began to realize that I was being sold a nonsensical bill of goods. When I did my undergraduate studies, I started out in biology, and then in my junior year there I switched to anthropology. When I did my graduate work, it was almost entirely into anthropology, eventually getting a job teaching it for roughly 30 years.

The evidence for evolution is absolutely overwhelming, and it's too bad that the JW's and many of the fundamentalist churches brainwash their adherents to reject known science and even common sense itself.

There are many books that can help to correct your perception on this, and if you need any recommendations, I can help you. You might even be surprised to find that most scientists aren't ignorant when it comes to science.

.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
OUTSTANDING PROPHECIES CONCERNING JESUS AND THEIR FULFILLMENT

(This chart does not translate well in copy form but can be viewed at Messiah — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY towards the bottom of the page.) I will have to post it in two parts....

Part 1)

Prophecy Event Fulfillment

Ge 49:10 Born of the tribe Mt 1:2-16; Lu 3:23-33; Heb 7:14

of Judah

Ps 132:11; From the family of Mt 1:1, 6-16; 9:27; Ac 13:22, 23;

Isa 9:7; David the son of Ro 1:3; 15:8, 12

11:1, Jesse

11:10

Mic 5:2 Born in Bethlehem Lu 2:4-11; Joh 7:42

Isa 7:14 Born of a virgin Mt 1:18-23; Lu 1:30-35

Jer 31:15 Babes killed after Mt 2:16-18

his birth

Ho 11:1 Called out of Mt 2:15

Egypt

Mal 3:1; Way prepared Mt 3:1-3; 11:10-14;

4:5; before 17:10-13; Lu 1:17, 76;

Isa 40:3 3:3-6; 7:27; Joh 1:20-23;

3:25-28; Ac 13:24; 19:4

Isa 61:1, 2 Commissioned Lu 4:18-21

Isa 9:1, 2 Ministry caused Mt 4:13-16

people in Naphtali

and Zebulun to see

great light

Ps 78:2 Spoke with Mt 13:11-13, 31-35

illustrations

Isa 53:4 Carried our Mt 8:16, 17

sicknesses

Ps 69:9 Zealous for Mt 21:12, 13; Joh 2:13-17

Jehovah’s house

Isa 42:1-4 As Jehovah’s Mt 12:14-21

servant, would not

wrangle in streets

Isa 53:1 Not believed in Joh 12:37, 38; Ro 10:11, 16

Zec 9:9; Entry into Mt 21:1-9; Mr 11:7-11;

Ps 118:26 Jerusalem on colt Lu 19:28-38;

of an ***; hailed Joh 12:12-15

as king and one

coming in Jehovah’s

name

Isa 28:16; Rejected but Mt 21:42, 45, 46; Ac 3:14;

53:3; becomes chief 4:11; 1Pe 2:7

Ps 69:8; cornerstone

118:22, 23

Isa 8:14, 15 Becomes stone of Lu 20:17, 18; Ro 9:31-33

stumbling
I had checked these out decades ago, but what you present above involves cherry-picking the verses and then usually pulling them out of their context.

About 25 years ago, I went through the entire Bible averaging about 2-3 hours per day of studying for nine months on the Tanakh, and then moving on to the "N.T." for another three months. I took extensive notes, and at the end I was literally shocked and literally dismayed at what I found, namely that Jesus simply could not be the messiah. Maybe later, I don't know-- but definitely not now. And I a bit later took a three-evening seminar with a Christian theologian who had concluded the same thing.

If you believe Jesus is the messiah, fine-- I don't really deal with this any longer as my approach to religion in general has changed. I'm not against them, which is why I still attend services weekly as I do feel that they're important. I think that at least most religions and denominations are honest attempts to try and understand God or the Gods, but it's unfortunate that all too many leaders simply use them to brainwash their congregants into blindly accepting certain dogmas that defy even common sense at times.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Mosaic Law applies only to Jews, not Gentiles. Christ said that only two laws are to be observed by all Christians. Jews who wish to keep to the law on circumcision, hygiene and food requirements are free to do so.
Which is what I've posted several times before. Therefore, this is "God's Law", and this is what Jews are told in the Torah to follow.

So, let me recommend that any time you say "God's Law" that you realize that there are 613 Commandments that are still valid today for Jews to follow.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Especially are all Abrahamic faiths, including Christendom, guilty of breaking the the 6th Commandment...."You must not murder". I have heard lots of justification about bloodshed and why its OK to participate in war
"Murder" is a legal term that does not apply when in reference to wars, whereas the latter would be "killing".

The early church struggled with this because of not only what Jesus appears to have said, but also what are we to do if innocent people's lives are being threatened? Torah says we must try and defend the innocents and that deadly force may be used in defense of the innocent. Only a prophet could authorize a war of offense, and the "prophetic age" ended even before Jesus was born.

Anyhow, these are points for discussion on another thread on another day, which also begs the question as to why you brought this up here when we weren't really discussing this?

No I do not adhere to the "theological construct" if it means seeing Jesus as a God/Man. Jesus was 100% human and died just like any other mortal.
That's not what I was referring to, but that may be my fault.

What I was asking was in terms of Jesus supposedly being "the final sacrifice". Since you believe Jesus was a man, how could a human sacrifice be used to forgive sins? One might take that position in a more symbolic sense, but it certainly cannot be taken seriously at the literal level. On top of that, the sacrificial process as stipulated in Torah certainly wasn't followed in Jesus' case.

Animal sacrifices were a temporary measure until the time came for the permanent solution. The figurative blood of the real Passover Lamb on the doorpost of a believer's house. This means salvation.
But during the Passover, the "salvation" dealt with the liberation of Jews from Egypt, so you're conflating two different types of "salvation".

How can Israel fail to perform their sacrifices according to the law since the first century? Is there a reason why the Temple no longer exists, and why it was never rebuilt? On what basis is forgiveness possible for Jews in this time period?
The Temple sacrifices did not forgive personal sins, only communal ones, including those that we may not even be aware that we committed. Personal sins can be forgiven by trying to make amends for what we've done to whom we may have hurt, plus appealing to God for our sins through prayer.

If you have a concordance, check out "forgive" and its variations and you'll see for yourself that these sins can and will be forgiven by God even without the Temple sacrifices.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Absolutely and demonstratively false, and it's no wonder that you deny what the vast majority of scientists throughout the world well know.

And it stands even to just plain old common sense based on general observations, namely that all material objects change over time and genes are material objects. To deny evolution is to deny what we see on an everyday basis.

I have no problem with things changing due to environment, habitat or changes in food sources, but all science can really prove is that adaptive changes happen in response to those external circumstances. It is pre-programmed in all species to do this. What I cannot reconcile and what scientists seem to swallow down so readily, is that provable adaptive change is then automatically transferred to macro-evolution as a given, without any real proof that it ever happened.

As I mentioned to you a while back, I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church that taught against evolution, but fortunately, even when I was still in high school, I began to realize that I was being sold a nonsensical bill of goods.

When I was in High School, the theory of evolution had just begun to be taught in science classes as part of the curriculum. I fell for it hook line and sinker and assumed that scientists were people I could trust to tell me the truth. In my later teens and early twenties I started to dig deeper into this theory and found rather large holes in it. Nothing has filled those holes to date. But I also rejected Christendom's YEC approach. It wasn't until I began to study the Bible that I realized that both were wrong. There is another explanation that accommodates what science "knows" (as opposed to what it suggests) and what the Bible actually teaches. This moderate middle ground was very satisfying to me because it didn't force me to assume that God created evolution. Compromise is never a good position where God is concerned. He doesn't lie about anything. If he said he created all things directly, then that is what he did.

When I did my undergraduate studies, I started out in biology, and then in my junior year there I switched to anthropology. When I did my graduate work, it was almost entirely into anthropology, eventually getting a job teaching it for roughly 30 years.

And if you had Christendom's YEC in mind when you did your comparisons, then no wonder you rejected it.

The evidence for evolution is absolutely overwhelming, and it's too bad that the JW's and many of the fundamentalist churches brainwash their adherents to reject known science and even common sense itself.

Solid evidence for adaptation is readily seen in many species. (It is what Darwin saw) but the "evidence" for going beyond that is clearly in the realms of wishful thinking. "Brainwashing" is not limited to the churches....science too is brainwashing children into thinking that macro-evolution is provable....it isn't.
Please provide substantiated evidence that amoebas can become dinosaurs and that chickens are their descendants. Science can provide "suggestions" about those things, but suggestions about what they "think" or "assume" cannot be held as "facts". Can you produce evidence for macro-evolution that does not rely on "belief" or "assertion"?

There are many books that can help to correct your perception on this, and if you need any recommendations, I can help you. You might even be surprised to find that most scientists aren't ignorant when it comes to science.

My perceptions do not need correcting...and I am sure that you would say the same thing. We have each chosen our position and we will stand or fall by our choices. Scientists are in exactly the same position as creationists when it comes to hanging onto what they 'want' to believe. Neither has real scientific evidence to back up their beliefs. One just pretends to....and they have better marketing.

If you believe Jesus is the messiah, fine-- I don't really deal with this any longer as my approach to religion in general has changed. I'm not against them, which is why I still attend services weekly as I do feel that they're important. I think that at least most religions and denominations are honest attempts to try and understand God or the Gods, but it's unfortunate that all too many leaders simply use them to brainwash their congregants into blindly accepting certain dogmas that defy even common sense at times.

I have no doubts about Jesus being the Messiah, but that is my choice after evaluating the evidence and making my decisions accordingly.
Sometimes the brain is so full of toxic stuff that it needs a good 'washing'.....but once it is clean, refilling it with more garbage is counterproductive. We choose what goes in there.

So, let me recommend that any time you say "God's Law" that you realize that there are 613 Commandments that are still valid today for Jews to follow.

Let me just say this.....because I accept Jesus as Messiah and God foretold that we must listen to him or we will answer to God, (Genesis 18:15-19) then what Jesus says about the Law applies. He said he did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. The Christian scriptures concur with the Hebrew scriptures.....the Law was a means to an end and once it accomplished what it was sent to do, it was replaced by a new covenant with new laws.

Jeremiah 31:30-32 (Complete Tanach)
Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant. להִנֵּה יָמִים בָּאִים נְאֻם יְהֹוָה וְכָרַתִּי אֶת בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל וְאֶת בֵּית יְהוּדָה בְּרִית חֲדָשָׁה:
31 Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord. לאלֹא כַבְּרִית אֲשֶׁר כָּרַתִּי אֶת אֲבוֹתָם בְּיוֹם הֶחֱזִיקִי בְיָדָם לְהוֹצִיאָם מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם אֲשֶׁר הֵמָּה הֵפֵרוּ אֶת בְּרִיתִי וְאָנֹכִי בָּעַלְתִּי בָם נְאֻם יְהֹוָה:
32 For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people. לבכִּי זֹאת הַבְּרִית אֲשֶׁר אֶכְרֹת אֶת בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל אַחֲרֵי הַיָּמִים הָהֵם נְאֻם יְהֹוָה נָתַתִּי אֶת תּוֹרָתִי בְּקִרְבָּם וְעַל לִבָּם אֶכְתֳּבֶנָּה וְהָיִיתִי לָהֶם לֵאלֹהִים וְהֵמָּה יִהְיוּ לִי לְעָם:"

On the Passover night before his arrest, Jesus instituted this new covenant with his faithful apostles.

Luke 22:19-20: (TLV)
19 And when He had taken matzah and offered the bracha, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body, given for you. Do this in memory of Me.” 20 In the same way, He took the cup after the meal, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you."

This new covenant no longer had a written code, but was to be inscribed on hearts as Jeremiah foretold. The law now was summed up in its two primary principles...."love of God and love of neighbor". Keep those two and you cannot break any of the other laws.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That's not what I was referring to, but that may be my fault.

What I was asking was in terms of Jesus supposedly being "the final sacrifice". Since you believe Jesus was a man, how could a human sacrifice be used to forgive sins? One might take that position in a more symbolic sense, but it certainly cannot be taken seriously at the literal level. On top of that, the sacrificial process as stipulated in Torah certainly wasn't followed in Jesus' case.

Isn't that why the Christ was portrayed as a Lamb? The Passover Lamb was slaughtered and its blood placed on the doorpost of every Israelite house. When the angel of death came, the blood saved them from the same fate as the Egyptians. There is a reason why Jesus died on Passover 33C.E. He was the Passover Lamb.....the real one. His blood covers the lives of those who accept him as Messiah.

But during the Passover, the "salvation" dealt with the liberation of Jews from Egypt, so you're conflating two different types of "salvation".

The two are closely linked. One mirrors the other. Salvation means getting saved from a life threatening situation.....the Israelites in Egypt were saved by the blood of the Lamb, and so are 'spiritual' Israel (Galatians 6:16)....Christ's disciples.

The Temple sacrifices did not forgive personal sins, only communal ones, including those that we may not even be aware that we committed. Personal sins can be forgiven by trying to make amends for what we've done to whom we may have hurt, plus appealing to God for our sins through prayer.

If you have a concordance, check out "forgive" and its variations and you'll see for yourself that these sins can and will be forgiven by God even without the Temple sacrifices.

According to my sources.....

Strongs says it means "to forgive, pardon".

Genesis Chapter 1 (NASB)

The Hebrew verb sa·lachʹ (forgive) is used only with regard to God’s pardoning a sinner....
According to God’s law, in order for a person who had sinned against God or against his fellowman to have his sins forgiven, he first had to rectify the wrong as the Law prescribed and then, in most cases, present a blood offering to Jehovah. (Leviticus 5:5–6:7) Hence, the principle stated by Paul: “Yes, nearly all things are cleansed with blood according to the Law, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.” (Hebrews 9:22) Actually, though, the blood of animal sacrifices could not take away sins and give the individual a perfectly clean conscience. (Hebrews 10:1-4; 9:9, 13, 14) By contrast, the foretold new covenant made possible true forgiveness, based on Jesus Christ’s ransom sacrifice. (Jeremiah 31:33, 34; Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; Ephesians 1:7) Even while on earth, Jesus, by healing a paralytic, demonstrated that he had authority to forgive sins. (Matthew 9:2-7)" (Excerpts Insight Volume 1)

And therein lies the point. Jesus' sacrifice was a ransom paid for the release of captives. Therefore it was covered in the Law.
The Law covered a murderer by demanding his life in exchange for the life he took. Adam died for his violation of God's command....but his children were sold into slavery to sin and death as a result, with no way to extract themselves out of that condition. If someone was sold into slavery because of the debt left by their father, the slave could be released if someone paid the debt for them. But the payment had to be equivalent to what the debt was worth. The ransom demanded for the release of Adam's children was so high, that not a single human on earth could provide it. Hence Jesus came from heaven to be born in the same sinless condition as Adam was in the beginning. The sinless life lost by us was paid for by Jesus Christ.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What I cannot reconcile and what scientists seem to swallow down so readily, is that provable adaptive change is then automatically transferred to macro-evolution as a given, without any real proof that it ever happened.
"Macro-evolution" is simply a logical and well-established continuation of "micro-evolution". This idea of "kinds" is scriptural, not scientific, as there simply is not one iota of evidence that evolution hits some sort of magical "wall" and stops. And if there was any doubt about that, then geneticists, who specialize in this area, should be at least skeptics-- but they're not.

And if you had Christendom's YEC in mind when you did your comparisons, then no wonder you rejected it.
This did not and does not apply to me because as an adult I didn't buy into the YEC concept. Yes, I was brought up to believe it because of what my church taught but realized even back when I was in high school that this simply couldn't be the case.

BTW, up until that point, I was seriously thinking about going into the ministry, but I realized that I could not accept the anti-science stance my church had taken on this. Any religion or any denomination that teaches us to ignore known science should be regarded as being manipulative.

Fortunately, as I found out between my junior and senior years in high school, I realized that some denominations don't teach disregarding what science had and has determined.

BTW, I graduated from high school in 1963.

"Brainwashing" is not limited to the churches....science too is brainwashing children into thinking that macro-evolution is provable....it isn't.
It is fruitless to even discuss this aspect because every time this issue of what exactly is "macro-evolution" actually is, you constantly move the goalposts. For example, is a change in species "macro-evolution" or not? If not, exactly where is that magical line that supposedly cannot be crossed? All I ever get back is a run-around.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Isn't that why the Christ was portrayed as a Lamb? The Passover Lamb was slaughtered and its blood placed on the doorpost of every Israelite house.

And therein lies the point. Jesus' sacrifice was a ransom paid for the release of captives.
Jesus was a person, not a "lamb", and human sacrifices were not and are not allowed in Judaism nor Christianity.

What you are missing is that what Paul was dealing with was a form of symbolism that he came to believe in, probably out of a necessity to try and merge the God-Fearers and Jews together as a cohesive unit. He also, I assume, well knew that God can and does forgive sins in various ways, and that the Temple sacrifices were just one way.

Therefore, "Jesus' sacrifice" can make sense in a symbolic way, but it simply cannot and does not make any sense if taken literally.

And this is also where you're making a mistake when dealing with the creation accounts by taking them literally versus in an allegorical way. Why is it that you accept, I assume, the symbolisms used in Revelations and other books, but can't seem to realize that the creation accounts can be taken much the same way, which is why most Christian theologians don't have a problem accepting the basic ToE as long as it's understood that God was and is behind it all?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Christian scriptures concur with the Hebrew scriptures.....the Law was a means to an end and once it accomplished what it was sent to do, it was replaced by a new covenant with new laws.

Well:

Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;

O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation
;

Isaiah 59:[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."


Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;

so shall your descendants and your name remain.

Deuteronomy 4:(2): "your G-d…shall not add to what I have commanded you or subtract."

Dt. 13(1): "You shall be careful to observe, neither adding to it or subtracting."

Dt. 29(28): "Concerns us and our descendents forever, that we may carry out all the words of this Law."

Joshua 1(5): "I will not leave or forsake you…(7) observe the entire Law … do not swerve from it."

Psalms 19(8): "The Law of the Lord is perfect… (10) the ordinances of the Lord are true; all of them are just."

Ps. 119(160): "permanence is Your words chief trait, each of Your just ordinances is everlasting."

Baruch 4(1): "the Law endures forever."


So Deeje, I guess you're gonna have to decide whether you want to believe in what the scriptures say or what your JW leaders teach you to believe.
 
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