LDS Atonement

[Clear]

this is the second half of a two part post
Edward:

You asked regarding “apostolic succession” whereas I was speaking of the principle of authority itself. For example:


Regarding the specific principle of Authority :

Christianity finds itself among hundreds of other religions, which are “seeking God” in various ways. They all have a right to ask, “What gives Christianity the right or the authority to say it is the clearest and truest view of “God” and regarding what God is doing with men?” Both atheists and other types of Theists have a right to ask regarding what authority Christianity has for it’s claims.

If Jesus was simply a religious man without any authority from God, then any promise or expectation of atonement, or salvation through him, collapses. The principle of authority from God to make specific promises regarding reward (e.g. salvation) and punishment, is an all important theme underlying a great deal of sacred literature. It is important to know if Mohammed (pbuh) had authority from God (and the extent of his authority) AND / OR if Jesus had authority from God (and the extent of his authority). Authority is one of many principles that underlies Islamo-Judao-Christian theology and the promise of redemption and reward.

The same principle exists in the smaller scale of considering which Christianity has authority to make their specific claims and promises. Alethia’s personal version of Christianity (as well as my version), finds itself among hundreds of others making claims regarding Jesus and a vast number of those claims are contracting. Virtually ALL Christians agree with Alethia’s observation that “we must come unto Christ” (Jesus). However, as Orontes pointed out :

“..... Is the Christ you refer to the deterministic Christ with double predestination ala Calvin? Is it the Christ of Arminius where free will exists? Is it the Christ who literally becomes the body and blood via transubstantiation? Is it the Black Christ? Is it the Christ of Coptic Christianity? The Christs within Christianity are legion. To simply assert one must come to Christ alone is void of content, which Christ? If you decry Mormonism for having a position on Christ as opposed to some an extra-denominational model, then you have simply embraced relativism and moved beyond the confines of reason i.e. there is no way of separating your personal sensibilities on Christ from feelings on blue cheese. In simple terms, your stance is emotive. “

Who is authorized to say which of the various “Christs” one is to “come unto”?



Authority is an implicit principle within the sacred histories:

The Jews describe the “King” that “shall reign” (Jer 23:5) and upon whose “shoulder” his “government” is to rest (Isa 9:6). If Jesus is given a “dominion...and a kingdom” (Dan 7:14) and is to be a “king over all the earth”, then his government will have authority. In Jesus day, even the Jews recognized that “he taught them as one having authority” (matt 7:29 & Mk 1: 22).

It matters that Jesus really did have “power on earth to forgive sins”. (Mtt 9:6). The Jews understood that if Jesus had no authority to preach, then they had no obligation to obey Jesus. Yet, if Jesus was telling the truth when he finally claimed “by what authority I do these things” (Mtt 21:24), then the Lord God HAD given him authority. Jesus isn’t simply "demanding" as a scribe or pharisee, but rather “with authority commandeth he.” (Mk 1:27)

Jesus doesn’t simply have 12 “groupies” that hang around, and they do NOT claim to obtain their apostolic authority by “reading a book” (O.T.) or simply “believing in Jesus”, but rather, “he ordained twelve”. (Mk 3:14) Just as Jesus is given Authority by his FATHER and says “I am come in my Father’s name” (Jn 5:43), it is ONLY after receiving authority from Jesus that the twelve may act with authority.

Jesus himself does NOT assume to do these things on his own, but HIS authority is given to him by HIS Father as Jesus said “All things are delivered to me of my Father” (Lk 10:22) and the “Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.” (John 3:35). Not only is Jesus SENT by the Father (Jn 7:29, 8:29; 17:18; 20:21, etc), but Jesus does not even take it upon himself to generate doctrines, but rather he admits “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.” (Jn 7:16). Jesus does not take upon himself the right to Judge men, but it is his FATHER who “hath committed all judgment unto the Son". (John 5: 22, 27; Jude 1: 15) Jesus is a servant of ANOTHER, who’s commandments he follows, thus he say “This commandment have I received of my Father” (John 10: 18; 12: 49; 14: 31).

Jesus does not become “Lord both of the dead and living.” (Rom 14:9) by inherent authority, but through authority given him by his FATHER, Jesus was “anointed” (Acts 4: 27) and “ordained” (Acts 10: 42; 17: 31) to his tasks. The early Christians were not ignorant that Jesus was given authority by another, thus they say that God “has spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed". (Heb 1:2), he was ”Called of God an high priest" (Heb 5:10)

It is not just the New Testament, but the Old Testament, the Apocrypha, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, the Nag Hamadi, the 40 day and DSS literature, is rife with specific references to the need for authentic authority to act for God. It is NOT apostolic “succession” that is implied, but rather the principle of authority itself.

Edward, perhaps you have not thought about the import of this specific principle underlying the atonement (I had not given it much thought until just a few years ago...), but it underlies the atonement and contributes to the logical “order” and “harmony” of principles which is found in authentic religion.

Clear
sixdr09il

p.s. I found a prior error I made (In a prior post I indicated the LDS claim authority through restoration from the ancient "apostles". This is only half true. If I am correct, initially, the lower priesthood was restored through John the Baptist sent from God to do this, and other authorities were restored through apostles who possessed authority. I am sorry if this oversight caused confusion, (if anyone actually noticed it...)

 

[smitten508]

Just as faith without works is dead, I would argue that works without faith are dead. That's why they are referred to in the Bible as "filthy rags." Good works are a sign of our faith, and yet they are still a choice. No Christian is immune to temptation, and is still free to choose the promptings of the Spirit over the promptings of the adversary. None of us are on auto-pilot as a result of our conversion.

That is correct. It is essential to be obedient in all things in order to receive the greatest of God's promised blessings. Jesus said that He would reward every man according to his works. Greater works, greater obedience and greater faithfulness merit greater blessings.

You're probably right. We stand alone in our belief that God loves all of His children so much that even the least valiant among them will be blessed with some measure of His glory. Faith in Christ, repentence of one's sins, baptism by immersion for the remission of those sins, receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and enduring to the end in a covenant relationship with our Savior results in the fulness of salvation.

You did raise a question in my mind, though. I have always been of the opinion that Catholics believed that certain of the sacraments were essential to salvation. Baptism, in particular, is one that all Catholics I know insist is a requirement for a person to enter into God's presence. And I know that a Catholic is forbidden to receive communion without having gone to confession first. Those things seem to me to fit into the category of "rituals which must be fulfilled."

Without a doubt, under ORDINARY circumstances we believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, and indeed salvific in itself! By no means did I mean to single Mormonism out with regards to that! Most pentecostal sects require a speaking of tongues. But under Canon law, baptism is only the norm, we believe that the theif on the cross obtained salvation, and that Gods mercy, first and foremost decides entrance into the Kingdom. Yes, we must confess before receiving host, but that's to make ourselves clean before taking the Body of Christ, not a requirement of eternal bliss.lol. As to the last of your post, I would LOVE to ascribe to that theology, but my own sense of justice won't allow it... Maybe you could sway me? I have a few friends that are lds, and love conversing with them. Its how I learned about Mom...

 

[Orontes]

p.s. I found a prior error I made (In a prior post I indicated the LDS claim authority through restoration from the ancient "apostles". This is only half true. If I am correct, initially, the lower priesthood was restored through John the Baptist sent from God to do this, and other authorities were restored through apostles who possessed authority. I am sorry if this oversight caused confusion, (if anyone actually noticed it...)

Mormons hold that the lower Priesthood (the Aaronic Priesthood) was restored through John the Baptist. The Melchizedek Priesthood was restored through Peter, James and John of the original Twelve Apostles. Further, Mormons hold that other Priesthood keys (authority) were restored by others at distinct times for example the Sealing Power was restored by Elijah (as spoken of by Malachi).

 

[Clear]

"Mormons hold that the lower Priesthood (the Aaronic Priesthood) was restored through John the Baptist. The Melchizedek Priesthood was restored through Peter, James and John of the original Twelve Apostles. Further, Mormons hold that other Priesthood keys (authority) were restored by others at distinct times for example the Sealing Power was restored by Elijah (as spoken of by Malachi)."

Orontes, you ARE quick. After my last attempt to correction, I felt the correction itself was not good enough but never made it back to "try again". When I make other significant errors, I hope you'll see them and feel free and please correct me. Thank you for setting this straight.

Clear

 

[Orontes]

Orontes, you ARE quick. After my last attempt to correction, I felt the correction itself was not good enough but never made it back to "try again". When I make other significant errors, I hope you'll see them and feel free and please correct me. Thank you for setting this straight.

Clear

LOL, Roger dodger.

 

[idea]

3 ..no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians12:3)


The Holy Spirit is sooo important. Direction given directly from God, it makes all the difference. Everyone can read/pray/ find out directly from God who has authority / who does not.

AUTHORITY. See also Call, Called of God, Calling; Keys of the Priesthood; Ordain, Ordination; Power; Priesthood
The permission granted to men on earth called or ordained to act for and in behalf of God the Father or Jesus Christ in doing God's work.
I have sent thee, Ex. 3:12–15. Speak all that I command thee, Ex. 7:2. He gave the twelve disciples power, Matt. 10:1. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, John 15:16. Nephi and Lehi preached with great authority, Hel. 5:18. Nephi, the son of Helaman, was a man of God, having great power and authority from God, Hel. 11:18 (3 Ne. 7:17). Jesus gave power and authority to twelve Nephites, 3 Ne. 12:1–2. Joseph Smith was called of God and ordained, D&C 20:2. No one shall preach my gospel or build up my Church unless he is ordained and it is known to the Church that he has authority, D&C 42:11. Elders are to preach the gospel, acting in authority, D&C 68:8. The Melchizedek Priesthood has authority to administer in spiritual things, D&C 107:8, 18–19. What is done by divine authority becomes law, D&C 128:9. Any who preach or administer for God must be called of God by those in authority, A of F 1:5.
(Guide to the Scriptures | A Authority.:Entry)

 

[ἀλήθεια]

3 ..no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians12:3)


The Holy Spirit is sooo important. Direction given directly from God, it makes all the difference. Everyone can read/pray/ find out directly from God who has authority / who does not.

I agree, but the LDS view of the atonement is not what I read in my Bible. So if the Holy Spirit tells me that the Bible version is correct and the LDS version is incorrect, should I not obey God rather than men?

I asked in the OP:

...

Where was I mistaken?

This thread is about the LDS atonement not about the truthfulness of scripture or the Book of Mormon nor is it about authority of one church over another.

 

[Watchmen]

I agree, but the LDS view of the atonement is not what I read in my Bible. So if the Holy Spirit tells me that the Bible version is correct and the LDS version is incorrect, should I not obey God rather than men?

I asked in the OP:




This thread is about the LDS atonement not about the truthfulness of scripture or the Book of Mormon nor is it about authority of one church over another.

The only contradiction between the Bible atonement and the LDS view of the atonement is the one you create in your head.

 

[edward]

The only contradiction between the Bible atonement and the LDS view of the atonement is the one you create in your head.

You know what, Watchmen? For several months now, I have watched you shift into attack mode each time ἀλήθεια makes an observation regarding the Mormon church. When do you think that you will start engaging in some meaningful dialogue with those who do not agree with every jot and tittle that you are opposed to? After spending over forty years studying my bible, it has become evident that those who become followers Jesus are to become new creatures. Given your constant against diatribe ἀλήθεια, it appears that the old creature is still alive an well with in your soul. Please read II Corinthians 5:17 for the sake for your eternal reward. It read as follows, "II COR 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

What does this mean? I would hope that it would mean to you that you are to love your neighbor as yourself. I say this not to make you angry, but in an effort to help you overcome this vile abhorrence for others that will effect you own personal salvation.

Edward

 

[ἀλήθεια]

You know what, Watchmen? For several months now, I have watched you shift into attack mode each time ἀλήθεια makes an observation regarding the Mormon church. When do you think that you will start engaging in some meaningful dialogue with those who do not agree with every jot and tittle that you are opposed to? After spending over forty years studying my bible, it has become evident that those who become followers Jesus are to become new creatures. Given your constant against diatribe ἀλήθεια, it appears that the old creature is still alive an well with in your soul.

Ummm....thank you for your defense. Let me say that I believe that a new creature is a work of God called regeneration/new birth.

Titus 3
1Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

2To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Please read II Corinthians 5:17 for the sake for your eternal reward. It read as follows, "II COR 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Revelation 21
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

What does this mean? I would hope that it would mean to you that you are to love your neighbor as yourself. I say this not to make you angry, but in an effort to help you overcome this vile abhorrence for others that will effect you own personal salvation.

Edward

Given that all have sinned, I believe that we all need regeneration. If God begins a new work in an individual, He will surely bring it to completion.

Philippians 1
6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I believe that those who love the Lord will be sanctified and will, in God's time(which may very well be at the moment of regeneration), love others.

Anyway, thank you for your support, Edward.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

The only contradiction between the Bible atonement and the LDS view of the atonement is the one you create in your head.

Do LDS believe that they have a special ability to read another person's mind/thoughts?

If a person loves the Lord, reads his Bible, ponders what it says, asks God with a sincere heart if those things are true, will God( who gave that person faith) cause the individual to create something in his/her mind that is not there?

Or will the Good Shepherd actually lead His sheep?

 

[idea]

Amen! For LDS, in the end, reward is based on how many rules a Christian kept, rather than the blood of Christ which promises all spiritual blessings.

Salvation is based on both - faith and works. We cannot save ourselves through our works. It takes both, as clearly illustrated in the Bible:

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
(New Testament | James2:17 - 26)


here is atone in the topical guide:

ATONE, ATONEMENT. See also Blood; Children of Christ; Cross; Crucifixion; Fall of Adam and Eve; Forgive; Gethsemane; Grace; Immortal, Immortality; Jesus Christ; Justification, Justify; Merciful, Mercy; Plan of Redemption; Redeem, Redeemed, Redemption; Remission of Sins; Repent, Repentance; Resurrection; Sacrament; Sacrifice; Salvation; Sanctification; Sons and Daughters of God
To reconcile man to God.

As used in the scriptures, to atone is to suffer the penalty for an act of sin, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of making a perfect atonement for all mankind. He was able to do so because of his selection and foreordination in the Grand Council before the world was formed (Ether 3:14; Moses 4:1–2; Abr. 3:27), his divine Sonship, and his sinless life. His atonement included his suffering for the sins of mankind in the Garden of Gethsemane, the shedding of his blood, and his death and subsequent resurrection from the grave (Isa. 53:3–12; Mosiah 3:5–11; Alma 7:10–13). Because of the Atonement, all people will rise from the dead with immortal bodies (1 Cor. 15:22). The Atonement also provides the way for us to be forgiven of our sins and live forever with God. But a person who has reached the age of accountability and received the law can receive these blessings only if he has faith in Jesus Christ, repents of his sins, receives the ordinances of salvation, and obeys the commandments of God. Those who do not reach the age of accountability and those without the law are redeemed through the Atonement (Mosiah 15:24–25; Moro. 8:22). The scriptures clearly teach that if Christ had not atoned for our sins, no law, ordinance, or sacrifice would satisfy the demands of justice, and man could never regain God's presence (2 Ne. 2; 9).
This is my blood, shed for many for the remission of sins, Matt. 26:28. His sweat was as it were great drops of blood, Luke 22:39–44. I will give my flesh for the life of the world, John 6:51. I am the resurrection, and the life, John 11:25. Christ is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey, Heb. 5:9. We are sanctified by the shedding of the blood of Christ, Heb. 9; 10:1–10. Christ also hath once suffered for sins, 1 Pet. 3:18. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin, 1 Jn. 1:7. He was lifted up upon the cross and slain for sins, 1 Ne. 11:32–33.

Redemption comes to those who have a broken heart and contrite spirit, 2 Ne. 2:3–10, 25–27. He offered himself a sacrifice for sin, 2 Ne. 2:7. The Atonement ransoms men from the Fall and saves them from death and hell, 2 Ne. 9:5–24. It must needs be an infinite atonement, 2 Ne. 9:7. Be reconciled unto God through the Atonement of Christ, Jacob 4:11. His blood atones for the sins of those who have ignorantly sinned, Mosiah 3:11–18. Man received salvation through the atonement, Mosiah 4:6–8. Were it not for the Atonement, they must unavoidably perish, Mosiah 13:27–32. He shall atone for the sins of the world, Alma 34:8–16. God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, Alma 42:11–30. I am the God of the whole earth, slain for the sins of the world, 3 Ne. 11:14. I, God, have suffered these things for all, D&C 19:16. Little children are redeemed through mine Only Begotten, D&C 29:46–47. Behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, D&C 45:3–5. This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten, Moses 5:7. Through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, A of F 1:3.
(Guide to the Scriptures | AAtone, Atonement.:Entry)

GETHSEMANE. See also Atone, Atonement; Olives, Mount of
A garden spoken of in the New Testament as being near the Mount of Olives. In Aramaic, the word gethsemane means "olive press." Jesus went to the garden on the night that Judas betrayed him. There he prayed and suffered in Gethsemane for the sins of mankind (Matt. 26:36, 39; Mark 14:32; John 18:1; Alma 21:9; D&C 19:15–19).
(Guide to the Scriptures | GGethsemane.:Entry)

44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
(New Testament | Luke22:44)

 

[idea]

If a person loves the Lord, reads his Bible, ponders what it says, asks God with a sincere heart if those things are true, will God( who gave that person faith) cause the individual to create something in his/her mind that is not there?

Or will the Good Shepherd actually lead His sheep?

I am not sure what you mean by "create something in his/her mind that is not there", but yes, the Good Shepherd actually does lead His sheep.

 

[idea]

I would question whether LDS believe that a baptized Presbyterian who has faith in Christ can have the Gift of the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands by an LDS priesthood holder.

see bold.
GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. See also Gift; Gifts of the Spirit; God, Godhead; Holy Ghost
It is the right of every worthy baptized member of the Church to have the constant influence of the Holy Ghost. Following a person's baptism into the true Church of Jesus Christ, he receives the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands from one who has the proper authority (Acts 8:12–25; Moro. 2:1–3; D&C 39:23). Receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is often spoken of as a baptism by fire (Matt. 3:11; D&C 19:31).

Men are commanded to repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2:38. Peter and John conferred the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, Acts 8:14–22. The Holy Ghost is given by the laying on of hands, Acts 19:2–6. The remission of sins comes by fire and by the Holy Ghost, 2 Ne. 31:17. We believe in the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, A of F 1:4.
(Guide to the Scriptures | GGift of the Holy Ghost.:Entry)

HOLY GHOST. See also Baptism, Baptize; Comforter; Dove, Sign of the; Gift of the Holy Ghost; God, Godhead; Holy Spirit of Promise; Inspiration, Inspire; Revelation; Unpardonable Sin
The third member of the Godhead (1 Jn. 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a personage of Spirit, not having a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130:22). The Holy Ghost is often referred to as the Spirit, or the Spirit of God.
The Holy Ghost performs several vital roles in the plan of salvation. (1) He bears witness of the Father and the Son (1 Cor. 12:3; 3 Ne. 28:11; Ether 12:41). (2) He reveals the truth of all things (John 14:26; 16:13; Moro. 10:5; D&C 39:6). (3) He sanctifies those who have repented and become baptized (John 3:5; 3 Ne. 27:20; Moses 6:64–68). (4) He is the Holy Spirit of Promise (D&C 76:50–53; 132:7, 18–19, 26).

The power of the Holy Ghost can come upon a person before baptism and witness that the gospel is true. But the right to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, whenever one is worthy, is a gift that can be received only by the laying on of hands by a Melchizedek Priesthood holder after authorized baptism into the true Church of Jesus Christ.

Jesus taught that all sins could be forgiven except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Matt. 12:31–32; Mark 3:28–29; Luke 12:10; Heb. 6:4–8; D&C 76:34–35).

The Spirit causes men to walk in God's statutes, Ezek. 36:27. The Apostles were commissioned to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, Matt. 28:19. The Holy Ghost shall teach you all things, John 14:26. Holy men spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, 2 Pet. 1:21. Nephi was led by the Spirit, 1 Ne. 4:6. The mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them by the power of the Holy Ghost, 1 Ne. 10:17–19. The Holy Ghost shows all things that you should do, 2 Ne. 32:5. By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things, Moro. 10:5. The Holy Ghost will tell you in your mind and in your heart, D&C 8:2. The Spirit leadeth to do good, D&C 11:12. The Holy Ghost knoweth all things, D&C 35:19. The Holy Ghost teaches the peaceable things of the kingdom, D&C 36:2 (D&C 39:6). If ye receive not the Spirit, ye shall not teach, D&C 42:14. The Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and the Son, D&C 42:17 (1 Cor. 12:3; 3 Ne. 11:32, 35–36). To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, D&C 46:13. Whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, D&C 68:4. The Holy Ghost shall be shed forth in bearing record unto all things ye shall say, D&C 100:8. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion,
(Guide to the Scriptures | HHoly Ghost.:Entry)

And can a baptized LDS who has received the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost be assured of exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, without obedience to seeking out his ancestors and submitting their names for vicarious temple work, without paying a full tithe to the LDS church, without attending his meetings on a regular basis, without keeping the Word of Wisdom(dietary law), and without keeping his covenants that he makes in the LDS temple?

Where was I mistaken?

Can anyone say they are assured of exaltation? Going through motions does not get anyone anything - the motions are a means to an end.

1 THOUGH I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians13:1 - 3)


Those who have charity, humility, love, faith - these will be exalted. Not about who makes the most casseroles. It is about who learns how to love. You are trying to turn it into a
letter of the law / Pharisees type of thing. It is not about how much money we give ...

42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
(New Testament | Mark 12:42 - 44)

It is not about being seen at church
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
(New Testament | Matthew 6:5)

It is not about what we eat.
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
(New Testament | Matthew 15:11)

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I am not sure what you mean by "create something in his/her mind that is not there", but yes, the Good Shepherd actually does lead His sheep.

So if God tells me that there is a contradiction between the Bible teaching about the atonement and the LDS view of the atonement, is it[the contradiction] in my head because He put it there or is it there because I am not one of His sheep?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Salvation is based on both - faith and works. We cannot save ourselves through our works. It takes both, as clearly illustrated in the Bible:

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
(New Testament | James2:17 - 26)

We are saved because God sent His Son to shed His blood for the remission of our sins, not because we paid tithing, were sealed in a man-made building, kept the law of consecration, etc.

We work because that is what God is doing in us. He has made us new creatures.

Ephesians 2

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Romans 5
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Titus 3
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Romans 4
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

1 Corinthians 15
10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

 

[Watchmen]

As I said before, the only contradiction is the one you make up.

 

[Orontes]

Alethia,

This remains undealt with: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...25-post39.html this post speak directly to an LDS read of the atonement. Not dealing with this, while making claims about any Mormon position appears disingenuous.

There is also this charge against Mormons: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1540600-post76.html

"Followers of Mormonism nearly always try to distract from one's coming to Christ towards one's being a member of a certain church(denomination) with a prescribed set of interpretations of biblical Christianity claiming that their interpretation/misinterpretation is the only way. People ought to have their eyes on Jesus Christ, not on the Mormon church and it's leaders."

This was my reply: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1540925-post79.html

"Your hostility blinds you to poor reasoning. Is the Christ you refer to the deterministic Christ with double predestination ala Calvin? Is it the Christ of Arminius where free will exists? Is it the Christ who literally becomes the body and blood via transubstantiation? Is it the Black Christ? Is it the Christ of Coptic Christianity? The Christs within Christianity are legion. To simply assert one must come to Christ alone is void of content, which Christ? If you decry Mormonism for having a position on Christ as opposed to some an extra-denominational model, then you have simply embraced relativism and moved beyond the confines of reason i.e. there is no way of separating your personal sensibilities on Christ from feelings on blue cheese. In simple terms, your stance is emotive."​

This has not been dealt with. One either needs retract the charge, or respond to the counter. If you do not, then your accusation remains empty.

I agree, but the LDS view of the atonement is not what I read in my Bible. So if the Holy Spirit tells me that the Bible version is correct and the LDS version is incorrect, should I not obey God rather than men?

This is an interesting question, but unfortunately it begs the question. Which Bible version? The Evangelical Bible is not the same as the Roman Catholic Bible. Neither are the same as the Greek Orthodox Bible, and each is again different from say the Ethiopic Coptic Bible. The list along these lines can go on. This issue applies not only to actual content but to hermeneutics. If the Bible is to be the standard to determine doctrinal rectitude i.e the right view on the atonement, then you first need to determine which Bible and which hermeneutic to apply. A naive reading of the text simply will not do. Such is its own refutation.

So if God tells me that there is a contradiction between the Bible teaching about the atonement and the LDS view of the atonement, is it[the contradiction] in my head because He put it there or is it there because I am not one of His sheep?

Now, as to this notion: "if the Holy Spirit tells me that the Bible version is correct and the LDS version is incorrect"

and this

"So if God tells me that there is a contradiction between the Bible teaching about the atonement and the LDS view of the atonement, is it [the contradiction] in my head because He put it there or is it there because I am not one of His sheep? (quoted above).

The conditional in both sentences is the rub, isn't it. Are you claiming a revelation?

 

[Orontes]

We are saved because God sent His Son to shed His blood for the remission of our sins, not because we paid tithing, were sealed in a man-made building, kept the law of consecration, etc.

How do you define saved?

We work because that is what God is doing in us. He has made us new creatures.

By "we work" I assume you mean doing good things? If God is doing this in us, then God is the acting agent and not the man. Under this schema, is man still a moral being? If so, how do you know?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

My statement: "The latter requires the subject accepts Christ into their lives. Mormonism thus mirrors in many ways the general stance on the subject found in the Older Greek and Oriental Christian Traditions, the ultimate at-one-ment being exaltation, deification or theosis."

Atone - In Hebrew - kaphar (kaw-far') to cover (specifically with bitumen); figuratively, to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel.
Strong's 3722


Hebrews 9:22 tells us that "without the shedding of blood is no remission" of sins.

... (and emphasized by the use of hyphens) is that any at-one-ment must ultimately point to an exaltation/deification/theosis to be coherent.

Exaltation has to do with LDS rewards for works. The subject of this thread is not whether one Christian can obtain a better reward than another Christian.

Further, it is this general move one finds all through the Greek and Oriental Christian Traditions. Any appeal to an atonement that also wishes to stress an ontic distinction between Deity and those dubbed He is at one with, calls into question the very meaning of an at-one-ment.

You must remove the hyphens and stop seeing atonement as three words.

Per your Biblical quotes: no context or larger point was presented. Given they are two Isaiah quotes stressing the singularity of God.

Should I then assume you agree with Judaism that these two verses clearly indicate the Trinity is heretical and contra the revealed word?

You may ssume that only if you want to play games; I'm not interested in playing games.

Should I perhaps offer another verse from the Bible i.e.:

"Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' " -John 20:17

It would seem, if one accepts the above text as accurate and also holds Jesus was Divine, that there are two beings that are then Gods and as noted one gives deference to the other.

If this is truly something that interests you, feel free to start another thread. I'd like to bring this one back on topic and keep it there.

BTW, my time here is limited.