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LDS Atonement

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
ἀλήθεια;1554121 said:
The difference is that the fulfillment of or attempt to fulfill man's responsibilty to God is not a requirement to pay for what the Savior already paid with His blood. He doesn't rescue us according to our efforts. According to His mercy He saved us.
He also said that not everyone who acknowledges Him as their Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of the Father. He further explained that we will abide in His love if we keep his commandments. And lastly, Paul pointed out that Christ became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. It is clearly according to His mercy that we are saved. He is not under any obligation whatsoever to save any of us. From the most wicked to the most righteous, every last one of us is eternally lost without His grace. But He does, in fact, expect repentance and obedience from us as part of the covenant relationship we enter into with Him at baptism. This in no way, shape or form changes the fact that it is through grace that God sees our efforts as anything more than the "filthy rags" they would otherwise be.


Your boredom or lack thereof is not caused by my posts.
It is if I say it is.

If my posts truly bore you, you ought to be capable of not reading them. I will post as long as I'm interested in posting or have time to do so. How long will you continue to respond?
I am quite capable of ignoring them for the most part, which I will continue to do. Now and then, if I have nothing better to do, I will probably also continue to respond.
 
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This in no way, shape or form changes the fact that it is through grace that God sees our efforts as anything more than the "filthy rags" they would otherwise be.


They would other than what be filthy rags?

I am quite capable of ignoring them for the most part, which I will continue to do. Now and then, if I have nothing better to do, I will probably also continue to respond.

I'll try to remember that you are responding because you have "nothing better to do."
 

Orontes

Master of the Horse
ἀλήθεια;1553827 said:
The truth is that we are saved by grace only after all we ourselves can do. (See 2 Nephi 25:23.) There will be no government dole which can get us through the pearly gates. Nor will anybody go into the celestial kingdom who wants to go there on the works of someone else. Every man must go through on his own merits. We might just as well learn this here and now.
- Marion G. Romney, "‘In Mine Own Way’," Ensign, Nov 1976, 123


"We have made covenants so to do solemn, sacred, holy covenants, pledging ourselves before gods and angels. We are under covenant to live the law of obedience. We are under covenant to live the law of sacrifice. We are under covenant to live the law of consecration. It is our privilege to consecrate our time, talents, and means to build up his kingdom. We are called upon to sacrifice, in one degree or another, for the furtherance of his work. Obedience is essential to salvation; so, also, is service; and so, also, are consecration and sacrifice."
Bruce R. McConkie, "Obedience, Consecration, and Sacrifice", Ensign, May 1975, 50

Obedience to the law of heaven is an essential condition of salvation, and an essential condition in heaven." — Rulon S. Wells, "Conference Report", April 1936, p.39

"The Savior’s blood, His atonement, will save us, but only after we have done all we can to save ourselves by keeping His commandments. All of the principles of the gospel are principles of promise by which the plans of the Almighty are unfolded to us" (Ye Are the Light of the World, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1974, p. 245).
Richard G. Scott, "Acquiring Spiritual Knowledge," Ensign, Nov 1993, 86

Justice guarantees that you will receive the blessings you earn for obeying the laws of God. Justice also requires that every broken law be satisfied. When you obey the laws of God, you are blessed, but there is no additional credit earned that can be saved to satisfy the laws that you break.
- Richard G. Scott, "The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness," Ensign, Nov 2006, 40–42

Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 12:20)

Good stuff there. Are we mining anti-Mormon sites now or is this original research? Have you read the various Ensign magazines referenced? Have you read the Book of Mormon? Given there is no comment or argument I take it you agree with all the quotes.

ἀλήθεια;1554121 said:
The difference is that the fulfillment of or attempt to fulfill man's responsibilty to God is not a requirement to pay for what the Savior already paid with His blood. He doesn't rescue us according to our efforts. According to His mercy He saved us.

Does man have a responsibility to God? Is everyone going to be rescued? What are the grounds of God rescuing us?

What does saved mean?
 
Good stuff there. Are we mining anti-Mormon sites now or is this original research? Have you read the various Ensign magazines referenced? Have you read the Book of Mormon?

I've read the articles referenced and I've read the Book of Mormon, not that it matters.

Given there is no comment or argument I take it you agree with all the quotes.

That's too bad, but you do seem annoyed.

Does man have a responsibility to God?

Is there a Christian on earth who believes that man has no responsibilty to God? It's kind of difficult for one to be a Christian without also believing that the Bible, which points us to Christ, is true.


Is everyone going to be rescued?

Are you asking if I'm a universalist? I'm not.


What are the grounds of God rescuing us?

That He might show His mercy.

What does saved mean?

You might want to read the thread.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1513684-post6.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1533439-post10.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1537069-post25.html

I might add that salvation is the opposite of condemnation. Man can be eternally separated from God or eternally present with Him. Salvation is to have the new birth, and therefore the promise that one will spend eternity with God.

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (Ephesians 2:13)

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Matthew 25:32-34)

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever. (Psalm 23:6)

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3) bold mine
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
ἀλήθεια;1554210 said:
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They would other than what be filthy rags?
Sorry, I don't understand your question.


I'll try to remember that you are responding because you have "nothing better to do."
Good, then you won't have your feelings hurt when I ignore you most of the time. :rolleyes:
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
ἀλήθεια;1554329 said:
I might add that salvation is the opposite of condemnation.
To me, that's a gross oversimplification. If you were a man on death row, awaiting your imminent death, and learned that you had been given a last-minute reprieve, you would surely consider yourself to be "saved," even if you knew you were to spend the rest of your life in prison. If you were a man wrongly convicted of a crime and were serving a life sentence for something you did not do, it would be understandable for you to see yourself as "condemned," even if you knew you would never be put to death for your crime. What some may see as salvation, others might see as condemnation.

All men are "saved" in terms of overcoming death. The grave will ultimately have power over no one. Some will be "saved" from the torment of an eternity spent in agony over their sins, but because they did not accept their Savior's atoning sacrifice, will be made to pay the price to redeem themselves. Others will be "saved" to spend an eternity of peace and happiness in the presence of the One who paid the debt for their sins. Still others will know the fulness of salvation or the blessing of Eternal Progression, as part of God's family in Heaven.

I'm just curious, exactly what do you believe a person must do to be "saved"? I would appreciate your expressing your thoughts in your own words rather than simply quoting someone else's.
 
To me, that's a gross oversimplification. If you were a man on death row, awaiting your imminent death, and learned that you had been given a last-minute reprieve, you would surely consider yourself to be "saved," even if you knew you were to spend the rest of your life in prison. If you were a man wrongly convicted of a crime and were serving a life sentence for something you did not do, it would be understandable for you to see yourself as "condemned," even if you knew you would never be put to death for your crime. What some may see as salvation, others might see as condemnation.

So if someones loves darkness more than light, he isn't condemned because he doesn't see it that way?

All men are "saved" in terms of overcoming death. The grave will ultimately have power over no one.

Do you believe that condemned people on whom the wrath of God abides, are saved?

Some will be "saved" from the torment of an eternity spent in agony over their sins, but because they did not accept their Savior's atoning sacrifice, will be made to pay the price to redeem themselves.

Oh, really? If men can redeem themselves, why did God send His Son into the world?

25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (Hebrews 7)

Is there more than one Savior?

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

Others will be "saved" to spend an eternity of peace and happiness in the presence of the One who paid the debt for their sins.

The One who paid the debt is Christ. Those who spend eternity in the presence of Christ are in what place? Where does Christ dwell?

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.(Revelation 3:21)

Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?(Isaiah 66:1)

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:3)

Still others will know the fulness of salvation or the blessing of Eternal Progression, as part of God's family in Heaven.

Is Christ not with God's children? Are God's children not with Christ?
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8:16)

I'm just curious, exactly what do you believe a person must do to be "saved"? I would appreciate your expressing your thoughts in your own words rather than simply quoting someone else's.

I suggest that you read the thread.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I see the twisting of what LDS members say is still a common occurrence at the RF. Good job, anti's!
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
ἀλήθεια;1554450 said:
So if someones loves darkness more than light, he isn't condemned because he doesn't see it that way?
It depends on what you mean by condemned. They will not necessarily be condemned to Hell, but they will not be permitted to receive the blessings they might have done.

Do you believe that condemned people on whom the wrath of God abides, are saved?
We LDS don't use that terminology, so it's difficult for me to address that question.

Oh, really? If men can redeem themselves, why did God send His Son into the world?
He sent His Son into the world so that we wouldn't have to pay the price for our own sins. But those who reject Him will be made to suffer during the thousand year Millennium when all the rest have been pardoned. After they pay the demanded price, they will receive a limited degree of God's glory.

Is there more than one Savior?
Of course not.

The One who paid the debt is Christ. Those who spend eternity in the presence of Christ are in what place? Where does Christ dwell?
He presides over the Terrestrial Kingdom, although I'm sure that doesn't mean He dwells there in the way you are thinking.

Is Christ not with God's children? Are God's children not with Christ?
Some of them are. Some of them aren't.

I suggest that you read the thread.
Nah, it's not worth it. I'd have to plow through too much stuff to get to the answer I was looking for. Never mind.
 

Orontes

Master of the Horse
ἀλήθεια;1554329 said:
I've read the articles referenced and I've read the Book of Mormon, not that it matters.

That's good. It's rare that anti-Mormons have actually read the material they quote. There is a General Conference Report from 1936, Ensign articles referenced from 1975 to jumping up to the 1990s. Do you have all these materials in your possession, or did you go to a library and read them? Do you have an extensive personal Mormon library of Ensign Magazines and Conference Reports?

I think actually having read material quoted does matter, as it demonstrates a certain seriousness and/or commitment to a subject one may be commenting on. How often is it one finds anti--Islamic statements from people who have never read the Koran or Hadiths?


That's too bad, but you do seem annoyed.
So, you don't agree with any of the quotes then? Why do you post material with no comment/argument? I don't know why my question would make you think I'm annoyed. I think my posts are fairly sober. In point of fact, I'm rather amused by your thread, far from any annoyance.



Is there a Christian on earth who believes that man has no responsibilty to God? It's kind of difficult for one to be a Christian without also believing that the Bible, which points us to Christ, is true.
There are major strands within larger Christian Thought that would have to answer in the negative. If you believe man is responsible to God, then there is something man is accountable for. If there is something man is accountable for, then one cannot argue man's acts are divorced from the equation. This undercuts this statement: "(T)he fulfillment of or attempt to fulfill man's responsibilty to God is not a requirement..."

Historical note: Christians necessarily predate the Bible compilation and existed for hundreds of years before there was such.


Are you asking if I'm a universalist? I'm not.
What are the conditions that determine the salvation of one over the other?


That He might show His mercy.
Let me make sure I'm clear here: your view is the grounds (the base reason) for saving a thing is to demonstrate the saving agent is merciful? Why?
If I've understood you correctly, why shouldn't that idea be dubbed narcissistic?


You might want to read the thread.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1513684-post6.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1533439-post10.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1537069-post25.html

I might add that salvation is the opposite of condemnation. Man can be eternally separated from God or eternally present with Him. Salvation is to have the new birth, and therefore the promise that one will spend eternity with God.
I read the three posts, they weren't very helpful, but I understand your statement:

"I might add that salvation is the opposite of condemnation. Man can be eternally separated from God or eternally present with Him. Salvation is to have the new birth, and therefore the promise that one will spend eternity with God."

It sounds like you equate being saved with the ultimate state man can attain. I'll use this understanding for any future issue(s) on the subject.
 
It depends on what you mean by condemned. They will not necessarily be condemned to Hell, but they will not be permitted to receive the blessings they might have done.

How does a person "do" a blessing?

I asked, "Do you believe that condemned people on whom the wrath of God abides, are saved?"

We LDS don't use that terminology, so it's difficult for me to address that question.

Which word(s) don't you use, "condemned" or "wrath?" Do LDS believe John Chapter 3 is translated correctly or are there words that you substitute for condemned and wrath?

He sent His Son into the world so that we wouldn't have to pay the price for our own sins. But those who reject Him will be made to suffer during the thousand year Millennium when all the rest have been pardoned. After they pay the demanded price, they will receive a limited degree of God's glory.

If someone rejects Christ, what must he do to pay the price and receive some of God's glory? How can an imperfect being pay the price of his sins?

Hebrews 7
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Of course not.
If there is only one Savior, who is going to "save" the condemned who reject Christ?

He presides over the Terrestrial Kingdom, although I'm sure that doesn't mean He dwells there in the way you are thinking.

So the Terrestrial Kingdom is not His dwelling place? Those people are eternally separated from His dwelling place. How can you say that they are spending eternity in His presence? Does He spend all eternity in their presence and neglect those who are with the Father?

I asked, "Is Christ not with God's children? Are God's children not with Christ? "

Some of them are. Some of them aren't.

Are you answering my second question quoted just above? Are some of God's children with Christ and some not? Why are some of the children not with Christ. Isn't that like locking your kids out of the house?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
You know, every time I respond to one of your posts, I think, "I wonder what word she's going to zero in on this time." This time it was the word, "do."

ἀλήθεια said:
Katzpur said:
It depends on what you mean by condemned. They will not necessarily be condemned to Hell, but they will not be permitted to receive the blessings they might have done.
How does a person "do" a blessing?

This isn't a legitimate debate. You don't know the meaning of legitimate debate. Debating issues is the furthest thing from your mind. This is pointless nitpicking and nothing more. There is no conceivable way a conversation with you can ever go anywhere but around in circles. There is no way any Latter-day Saint could respond to you in a way that you would find satisfactory. You would always be able to find some word or phrase to take issue with, not because of any genuine misunderstanding but because that's how you get your kicks. Well have fun. I seriously wish every Latter-day Saint on the forum would join me in ignoring every last one of your future posts.

But trust me, you haven't fooled anybody, LDS or otherwise. Everybody's got your number.
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
First post of a two part post


DEFINING THIS DISAGREEMENT
The dispute between Alethia and the Latter Day Saints seem contaminated by disparate motives. (At least different enough to prevent them from using the same data in the same way). For example, The Latter Day Saints agree with every single scripture that Alethia has ever used since the very first post. But, I believe they disagree with her personal interpretations and usage of them. Her consistent lack of explanation is not helpful.

For example: No one believes more strongly in the concept of salvation by Grace as an underlying principle than the Latter Day Saints. No one. Period. But, they do not believe in the "abuse" of grace; or in the exclusion of other principles that apply to Grace (by which all are saved). While the LDS might honor Alethia for believing in Gods Grace, they will remind Aalethia that she must repent and she must obey god lest she dishonor his great sacrifice nor be able to access his Grace that we all believe in.




DESCRIPTIONS OF THE FIGHTERS
In one corner of the ring is Alethia; whose personal interpretations of scripture do not have the seal of personal revelation nor does she have special authority as the authentic Gospel always has. She simply makes an interpretation of what they mean to her (whatever the interpretation is, since she rarely explains). She seeks to brawl with that which she does not understand. Her "cutting and pasting list of scriptures" (which the LDS already believe), are rarely applied or explained in such a way to apply them accurately. It is like "shadowboxing" in one corner without making any contact. She posts scriptures and says "take that!". The LDS counter "We agree with these scriptures! So what?".

In the other corner of the ring are the LDS (whether ancient OR modern) who, according to the ancient teachings of Jesus, also believe in Grace, but refuse to tear it away from it’s moorings and proper context. They believe in repentance and in obedience as well.

While Alethian Christianities do the best they can with limited doctrinal vision and without prophetic revelation nor authority, their song has only two or three notes in it, while the rest of the keyboard is unknown to them. The Saints (of ANY age, whether in Jesus day, or in our Day), with apostles and prophets, have always possessed greater doctrinal width and depth than the many Alethian Christianities. However, the Claims of the authentic Church of Jesus Christ as a living religion (having prophetic revelation with God) rather than a dead religion (having no current prophetic revelation with God), are a source of disharmony, nowadays, just as they were in the time of Jesus. Jesus’ detractors were offended at his claim to be the messiah and the LDS detractors are offended at their claim to having the messiah’s doctrines. Alethian arguments with their part-understanding are not new, Peter’s protégé Clement laments that
"Senseless and stupid and ignorant men jeer and mock at us, wishing to exalt themselves in their own imaginations" (I Clement)

Post two of a two part post follows this one
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
second post of a two part post

THE BALANCE BETWEEN GRACE, REPENTANCE AND OBEDIENCE IN THE ANCIENT CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST
The earliest Christians viewed and were taught to use the principles of repentance, obedience and Grace and left us many examples as to how to apply these principles as they were taught them by the Apostles themselves. For example, the Apostle Peter’s companion, Clement became a leader of the church in Rome at the same time when John is writing the book of Revelations. Clements letter to the squabbling Corinthians regards these very principles. Remember, Clement's first letter to the Corinthians WAS in the early New Testament canon anciently.

Clement teaches the Saints to implore God "to be merciful, if inadvertently you had committed any sin". He understood and taught that the mercy (Grace) of God did not cover
willful and continuing sin, but the mercy of God covers inadvertent sin. For the ancient Saints, the principle of repentance did NOT upset Grace and mercy and obedience, but it worked in concert with them. Repentance, is an eternal principle as Clement explains :
"from generation to generation the Master has given an opportunity for repentance to those who desire to turn to him. Noah preached repentance...Jonah preached destruction to the people of Nineveh; but they, repenting of their sins, made atonement to God by their prayers and received salvation, even though they were alienated from God. "



In it’s full (and therefore more accurate) context, the ancient Saints rarely spoke of Grace outside the context of repentance. For example, Clement reminds the Early Day Saints :
"The ministers of the grace of God spoke about repentance...the Master of the universe himself spoke about repentance with an oath: ‘For as I live, says the Lord, I do not desire the death of the sinner, so much as his repentance."
In reminding them what it meant to repent and how their sins become "white as snow", Clement advised them :
"Wash and be clean, remove the wickedness from your souls out of my sight. Put an end to your wickedness; learn to do good; seek out justice; deliver the one who is wronged: give judgement on behalf of the orphan, and grand justice to the widow. And come, let us reason together, he says: even though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white as wool. And if you are willing and listen to me, you shall eat the good things of the earth; but if you are not willing and do not listen to me, a sword shall devour you...
The promise that "ALL" could "eat the good things of the earth", was based on the requirement that they were "willing" and that they "listen to me" in doing the things he told them to do..



The Ancient Saints immersed in such concrete teachings knew that Grace and Charity of God were what saved them, BUT, they also understood that Grace and Charity would NOT save them if they did not repent. They were taught to :
" ...abandon the abominable lusts that spawn evil works, in order that we may be shielded by his mercy from the coming judgments....let us do all things that pertain to holiness, forsaking slander, disgusting and impure embraces, drunkenness and rioting and detestable lusts, abominable adultery, detestable pride."




THE ORDER OF CONSIDERATION : FAITH & REPENTANCE OF MEN AND THEN GRACE AND MERCY OF GOD
When Peter tells Clement that the teaching of Gospel principles
"has a certain order, and there are some things which must be delivered first, others in the second place, and others in the third, and so all in their order; and if these things be delivered in their order, they become plain; but if they be brought forward out of order, they will seem to be spoken against reason." (Peter, recognitions)
The greater context of this thread is out of order and cannot be easily reasoned due to abuse of this principle.
The thread, almost from the beginning, starts discussing "the Grace of God" without the important context of the very principles to which Mercy and Forgiveness and Salvation and Atonement are anchored. For example: Repentance

Even Alethia is aware of the fact that She MUST repent of her sins BEFORE she has access to mercy and forgiveness that will result in her ultimate salvation. But, in the desire to argue, this is overlooked.

Grace, as a "stand alone" principle, without any context, means little. If the principle of grace is "mis-taught" that all one has to do is "ask for it", then it is "mis-understood" as a "slices, dices, and does all principle" that is absolutely free to all, and all are saved so that heaven is peopled by any one who asks for mercy, even the rapists, and thieves who continue to rape and steal there without any intention to repent. Peter is correct that such principles are "unreasonable" when mis-taught and mis-understood. However, If we do as the Apostle Peter says, and retain Grace in it’s proper context, it can make sense.
Supposed we placed the principles into a simple order in the following simplified example:

What Must Alethia do in order to access the full benefits of the Atonement of Jesus :

1) Alethia must first have faith in God and in his Son Jesus Christ.
2) Since Jesus demands we repent of our sins and obedience to his commands. Alethia MUST repent of her sins and she must obey Jesus Christ in order to access the mercy and grace offered to her.
3) If Alethia does not wish to repent, or if she refuses to learn obedience to Jesus’ commandments, then she does NOT have access to the Grace that Jesus offers to all.
4) If she does not have access to the Mercy and Grace of Jesus, she will NOT be given the full blessings of the Atonement which he wrought.

Alethia’s current theory of Atonement has no advantage over the authentic Atonement. She STILL may not access grace to be "saved" in heaven without repentance; the same as all others.



A WORD ON CONTEXT
When Clements tells the ancient Saints,
"Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self-controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words"
His comments that we are "justified by works" are a few words within a very large discourse. This single sentence MUST be kept in it’s correct context, or it will seem to contradict the justification that comes through the atonement of Christ. If Alethia truly HAS read the ensign articles she claims to have read, then she knows that she has removed many of the LDS statements from a correct and larger context, which would have allowed them to make a difference sense. And, like Clements statement taken out of IT'S context, they may seem not to consider the full nature of the sacrifice of Jesus unless they are replaced into their context. If this is intentional deception, then Alethia, you need to repent of doing such things.


Alethia, you are allowed the same access to the wonderful atonement which is full of Grace and mercy that Jesus Christ offers to all mankind. However, , you must repent of your sins Alethia. If you do NOT repent of your sins, you cannot expect that Jesus will save you if you willingly choose evil; if you willingly choose to deceive; or willingly harm and hurt others. You must repent Alethia. There is no way around this principle as you seek the charity and mercy of Jesus.

Clear
eivitzse55jo
 
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What Must Alethia do in order to access the full benefits of the Atonement of Jesus :

1) Alethia must first have faith in God and in his Son Jesus Christ. Since Jesus demands we repent of our sins and obedience to his commands.
2) Alethia MUST repent of her sins and she must obey Jesus Christ in order to access the mercy and grace offered to her.
3) If Alethia does not wish to repent, or if she refuses to learn obedience to Jesus’ commandments, then she does NOT have access to the Grace that God offers to all.
4) If she does not have access to the Mercy and Grace of Jesus, she will NOT be given the full blessings of the Atonement.
Alethia’s current theory of Atonement has no advantage over the authentic Atonement. She STILL may not access grace to be "saved" in heaven without repentance; the same as all others.

I am saved by the merits of Jesus Christ, not by works of righteousness which I have done.


If you truly HAVE read the ensign articles you claim to have read, then you must know that you have removed many of the LDS statement from a larger context, which would have allowed them to make a difference sense and, like Clements statement taken out of context, may seem not to consider the full nature of the sacrifice of Jesus. If this is intentional deception, then you need to repent of doing such things.

If you read the entire article, the answer is still the same. There is no deception on my part.


Alethia, you are allowed the same access to the wonderful atonement which is full of Grace and mercy that Jesus Christ offers to all mankind. However, , you must repent of your sins Alethia. If you do NOT repent of your sins, you cannot expect that Jesus will save you if you willingly choose evil; if you willingly choose to deceive; to willingly harm and hurt others. You must repent Alethia. There is no way around this principle as you seek the charity and mercy of Jesus.

It is no longer mercy if one is required to keep all the commandments in order to obtain that mercy.

Romans 4
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

God does not impute sin to His sheep. He leads them and feeds them, and often chastens them.

2 Timothy 2
25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Alethia said:
"I am saved by the merits of Jesus Christ, not by works of righteousness which I have done."
I very MUCH agree with you on this specific sentence and I very much agree with the scriptures you quoted. If you are to be saved, it will be ultimately through the merits of Jesus and NOT your own merits. And if you are to access the "merits of Jesus Christ", you still must begin to repent of your sins Alethia. You MUST Obey Jesus before he will save you.




Clear said:
"Alethia, you are allowed the same access to the wonderful atonement which is full of Grace and mercy that Jesus Christ offers to all mankind. However, , you must repent of your sins Alethia. If you do NOT repent of your sins, you cannot expect that Jesus will save you if you willingly choose evil; if you willingly choose to deceive; to willingly harm and hurt others. You must repent Alethia. There is no way around this principle as you seek the charity and mercy of Jesus."
Alethia said:
"It is no longer mercy if one is required to keep all the commandments in order to obtain that mercy."
Again, you and I are very MUCH in agreement with your sentence. Despite this wonderful agreement we share Alethia, you still must repent of your sins to access the atonement. You still cannot expect Jesus will save you if you willingly choose evil. You still cannot disobey Jesus and expect he will save you. You still have no way around the principle of repentance.

Clear
eivitwsi00iy
 
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I very MUCH agree with you on this specific sentence and I very much agree with the scriptures you quoted. If you are to be saved, it will be ultimately through the merits of Jesus and NOT your own merits. And if you are to access the "merits of Jesus Christ", you still must begin to repent of your sins Alethia. You MUST Obey Jesus before he will save you.

He doesn't wait for sinners to obey to begin a good work in them.

Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Titus 3
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us

So are you suggesting that what LDS taught at General Conferences in the 1970's was wrong?

"Immortality connotes life without end. Eternal life, on the other hand, connotes quality of life — exaltation, the highest type of immortality, the kind of life enjoyed by God himself. It is in the attainment of eternal life, which man must earn in mortality, that he reaches his full potentiality" (Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, at General Conference, October 1978, Ensign, November, 1978, p. 14). bold mine

And in 2004, Richard Maynes taught:

In order to qualify for exaltation in the celestial kingdom, we must gain the trust of the Lord here on earth. We gain the trust of the Lord through earning it, and that is accomplished through our actual performance in living His gospel and keeping our covenants. In other words, we earn the trust of the Lord by doing His will.
Richard J. Maynes, "Keeping Our Covenants," Ensign, Nov 2004, 92

Again, you and I are very MUCH in agreement with your sentence. Despite this wonderful agreement we share Alethia, you still must repent of your sins to access the atonement. You still cannot expect Jesus will save you if you willingly choose evil. You still cannot disobey Jesus and expect he will save you. You still have no way around the principle of repentance.

The person who has been saved already has the assurance of eternal life. Not only does he have the assurance, he also has the desire to serve the Lord. He is being sanctified. It is God who does the work in a Christian's heart.

How does a person overcome all things? The answer is in the Bible:

1 John 5
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

What was it that Paul said to the Philippians?

Philippians 1
6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 2
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Who is it that has a contrite heart? The one who has been given the Spirit of Christ.
It is a fact that some people are his sheep and they follow Him. Others are not his sheep. And those who do not have His Spirit are not His:

Romans 8
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

John 6
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

If a person is a follower of Christ, he/she loves Him and is willing to do what He asks of His followers. This does not mean that a person is instantly changed into the person he/she will eventually become; there is a process:

Hebrews 12
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
 
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