LDS Atonement

[Watchmen]

edited

My post has value whether you recognize it or not. For one thing, it's humerous. For another, it identifies a flaw in what's-her-name's posts and arguments. Katz has pointed it out too. What's-her-name focuses on one, little thing (such as the word "do") and then twists things and takes things out of context and adds things that aren't there and takes things away that are.

Question: why'd you edit your post?

 

[Clear]

"He doesn't wait for sinners to obey to begin a good work in them."

As with your previous comments, I very MUCH agree with you on this specific sentence and I very much agree with the scriptures you quoted. Still, the truth remains that If you are to be saved, it will be ultimately through the merits of Jesus and NOT your own merits. And if you are to access the "merits of Jesus Christ", you still must begin to repent of your sins Alethia. You MUST Obey Jesus before he will save you.

"Alethia, you are allowed the same access to the wonderful atonement which is full of Grace and mercy that Jesus Christ offers to all mankind. However, , you must repent of your sins Alethia. If you do NOT repent of your sins, you cannot expect that Jesus will save you if you willingly choose evil; if you willingly choose to deceive; to willingly harm and hurt others. You must repent Alethia. There is no way around this principle as you seek the charity and mercy of Jesus."

"The person who has been saved already has the assurance of eternal life. Not only does he have the assurance, he also has the desire to serve the Lord. He is being sanctified. It is God who does the work in a Christian's heart."

Again, you and I find ourselves very much in agreement with this new and improved sentence. However, despite this second wonderful agreement we share Alethia, you still must repent of your sins to access the atonement. You still cannot expect Jesus will save you if you willingly choose evil. You still cannot disobey Jesus and expect he will save you. You still have no way around the principle of repentance.


Alethia, the point I am making should be clear to you: You have to repent of your sins. You cannot choose evil and disobedience to Jesus and expect him to save you. I understand the hedging and delay that is going on, but I cannot see why you would not agree with this principle? What is the problem that you are having with simply admitting that you must repent of your sins in obedience to Jesus?


Clear
eivifux200iy

 

[edward]

Question: why'd you edit your post?

Because I felt like it.

Question: Do you honestly believe that you and your dialogue are a good representative of your church?


Edward
MSG, USA (Ret.) (1967-1988)

Have a nice Memorial Week-end. Please remember the reason that we observe it.

 

[Watchmen]

That's a matter of opinion, yours. I guess that it has value to you.



REALLY ?? :areyoucra Who told you THAT? Again, this is merely your opinion. Personally, I don't seen humor in insulting others.



It identified nothing except that you know the name of a song from the 60s. Again, your unwillingness to address others by their moniker shows your unwillingness to address any issues that may be brought up. Also, Chubby Checker has nothing to do any dialogue addressed here.



Ah, yes. Twiddle Dumb and Twiddle Dee twins. One person points something out and you become her minor bird. Mimicking her every word.



Then address the issue instead of engaging in character assassination. If you don't like what is being said by ἀλήθεια and can't address it then leave it alone. You are only proving that you do not have the ability refute ἀλήθεια, just like your twin sister, Katzwhatsherface.



(1) Because I felt like it. (2) Because I didn't want to lower myself to your level. I was willing to just leave it be, but you had to ask. At least I answer your questions.

Edward
MSG, USA (Ret.) (1967-1988)

Have a nice Memorial Week-end. Please remember the reason that we observe it.

"You are the wind beneath my wings!"

-Bette Midler

 

[edward]

"You are the wind beneath my wings!"

-Bette Midler

Again, failing to address the issues.

 

[Watchmen]

Again, failing to address the issues.

Just because you don't see the message or how it applies to the issues doesn't mean it's not there. :yes:

 

[Katzpur]

"You are the wind beneath my wings!"

Where's the throw-up smilie? I hate that song!

 

[Watchmen]

Because I felt like it.

Question: Do you honestly believe that you and your dialogue are a good representative of your church?


Edward
MSG, USA (Ret.) (1967-1988)

Have a nice Memorial Week-end. Please remember the reason that we observe it.

Interesting. You edited your post again. A believe fish-hunter uses a similar tactic.

 

[edward]

Interesting. You edited your post again. A believe fish-hunter uses a similar tactic.

Yes, I edited my post again because I thought better if it. It doesn't matter though, you got it in your quote. I would like to retract it only because, like I said, I had lowered myself to your level and and am sorry that I had done so. I am not LDS, therefore, not perfect.

I have no idea who fish hunter is, but if it thrills you to compare me to him, knock your running lights out. There are a few people that you remind me of, but you don't know them.:curtsy:

I noticed that you have avoided the query about being a good representative of your LDS church, again. Is there some reason that you don't want to answer that? Probably not much different than me editing my post(s). (I wasn't aware that it was a sin to do so, considering that you did not address anything that I said.) Perhaps you should write a recommendation to the powers that be to eliminate that option, considering that it bothers you so much.

Looking forward to your dialogue regarding being of example for your church. Perhaps another thread. Are you game?

 

[Katzpur]

I am not LDS, therefore, not perfect.

Was that necessary?

 

[Watchmen]

Yes, I edited my post again because I thought better if it. It doesn't matter though, you got it in your quote. I would like to retract it only because, like I said, I had lowered myself to your level and and am sorry that I had done so. I am not LDS, therefore, not perfect.

I have no idea who fish hunter is, but if it thrills you to compare me to him, knock your running lights out. There are a few people that you remind me of, but you don't know them.:curtsy:

I noticed that you have avoided the query about being a good representative of your LDS church, again. Is there some reason that you don't want to answer that? Probably not much different than me editing my post(s). (I wasn't aware that it was a sin to do so, considering that you did not address anything that I said.) Perhaps you should write a recommendation to the powers that be to eliminate that option, considering that it bothers you so much.

Looking forward to your dialogue regarding being of example for your church. Perhaps another thread. Are you game?

"I don't wanna go on with you like that."

-Elton John

 

[edward]

Was that necessary?

As necessary as any of this other nonsense is. People refusing to mention others handles (monikers); people claiming to know other people's motives; etc, blah, blah,blah. Wouldn't it be nice to have a topic and stick to it. Then when questions come up regarding that topic, that the issues be dealt with without accusing others of spurious motives pulled out of the air. Also, wishing that no LDS would respond to non-LDS. Now that not how to answer an investigator's queries, in my book, at least.

Why would you take offense at my remark when I have heard much, much worse coming from the LDS to the Evangelicals? Perhaps we should all post in the same manner that we would like to be posted to. Of course I don't believe that your minor bird brother has an original thought in his head and therefore is excused from carrying on any meaningful dialogue.

So... was it necessary? Under the present atmosphere, something needs to be said to jerk people back on to the topic(s). I must say that this is the nastiest forum I have ever participated in. I am appalled with the attitude displayed by several, not all, people claiming to be members of the LDS church.

Personally, I am tried of reading all of this banter and really and very weary of researching and responding to LDS claims when there has to be all of this vitriolic verbage intertwined within the confines of the discussion.

If you and your friends are representative of the LDS church, I see no reason to discuss this any more. Shoot, I can't even get one to admit that he just might be representing your church. How sad is that?

Have a nice Memorial Week-End and try to remember all of the veterans who paid the price so that we can have the freedoms that we have.

Edward
MSG, USA (Ret.) 1967-1988

 

[edward]

"I don't wanna go on with you like that."

-Elton John

If you're Elton John, I don't want you to, either.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

As with your previous comments, I very MUCH agree with you on this specific sentence and I very much agree with the scriptures you quoted. Still, the truth remains that If you are to be saved, it will be ultimately through the merits of Jesus and NOT your own merits. And if you are to access the "merits of Jesus Christ", you still must begin to repent of your sins Alethia. You MUST Obey Jesus before he will save you.

There is no place in the Bible that says if you begin to repent of your sins, He will save you.

Matthew 19
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Romans 3
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

How much repentance is enough? Which commandments do we not have to keep?

Romans 4
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

James 2
10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Again, you and I find ourselves very much in agreement with this new and improved sentence. However, despite this second wonderful agreement we share Alethia, you still must repent of your sins to access the atonement.

If a person stops committing five sins of disobedience to God's laws, he is still guilty. If repentance means to stop sinning altogether, who has acheived that in every thought he has towards others twenty-four hours a day and in not ever desiring a material possession? Who is perfect?

Mark 10
18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

If you are not good, there is still something that you haven't repented of.

Romans 3
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

You still cannot expect Jesus will save you if you willingly choose evil. You still cannot disobey Jesus and expect he will save you. You still have no way around the principle of repentance.

Alethia, the point I am making should be clear to you: You have to repent of your sins. You cannot choose evil and disobedience to Jesus and expect him to save you. I understand the hedging and delay that is going on, but I cannot see why you would not agree with this principle?

What is the problem that you are having with simply admitting that you must repent of your sins in obedience to Jesus?

I have no problem at all with obedience to Christ. But only by having faith in Christ can a person receive salvation, and that is not because we obeyed all the commandments or seven or eight of them. He saved(past tense) us according to his mercy and He works in the ones He saves that He might redeem a people zealous of good works. Being zealous of good works does not save a person! Faith in the blood of Christ is what saves. The horse is salvation, the works are the cart.

 

[Clear]

Alethia, post #137"I am saved by the merits of Jesus Christ, not by works of righteousness which I have done."
Alethia,post #140 "He doesn't wait for sinners to obey to begin a good work in them."
Alethia,post #154 “There is no place in the Bible that says if you begin to repent of your sins, He will save you. “

We’ve used up six posts so far and we are still, very MUCH in agreement on all these specific sentences you offered and I continue to agree with the scriptures you quoted. Still, the truths remain that if you are to be saved, it will be ultimately through the merits of Jesus and NOT your own merits. And if you are to access the "merits of Jesus Christ", you still must begin to repent of your sins Alethia. You still MUST Obey Jesus before he will save you.




Clears claim :

"Alethia, you are allowed the same access to the wonderful atonement which is full of Grace and mercy that Jesus Christ offers to all mankind. However, , you must repent of your sins Alethia. If you do NOT repent of your sins, you cannot expect that Jesus will save you if you willingly choose evil; if you willingly choose to deceive; to willingly harm and hurt others. You must repent Alethia. There is no way around this principle as you seek the charity and mercy of Jesus."

Alethia’s reply :

Alethia, in post #137 "It is no longer mercy if one is required to keep all the commandments in order to obtain that mercy."
Alethia, in post #140 "The person who has been saved already has the assurance of eternal life. Not only does he have the assurance, he also has the desire to serve the Lord. He is being sanctified. It is God who does the work in a Christian's heart."
Alethia in post #154 “If a person stops committing five sins of disobedience to God's laws, he is still guilty. If repentance means to stop sinning altogether, who has acheived that in every thought he has towards others twenty-four hours a day and in not ever desiring a material possession? Who is perfect?”
Alethia, in post #154 “I have no problem at all with obedience to Christ. But only by having faith in Christ can a person receive salvation, and that is not because we obeyed all the commandments or seven or eight of them. He saved(past tense) us according to his mercy and He works in the ones He saves that He might redeem a people zealous of good works. Being zealous of good works does not save a person! Faith in the blood of Christ is what saves. The horse is salvation, the works are the cart.”

I think your personal definition of the process repentance needs more context in order to make it more reasonable. For example, As you correctly pointed out in your post #140 when you said “This does not mean that a person is instantly changed into the person he/she will eventually become; there is a process”. I very much agree with this observation you made. Repentance is also a process that may take considerable time, perhaps several thousand years (who knows...), but other than adding this context of time (which I think you believe in but simply didn’t state in this case...), I very much agree with these thoughts as far as I am able to understand them. And I am glad to see you making comments rather than simply posting a list of scriptures without comment. It improves my understanding of what you are trying to say. Thank you.


Still, we are left right where we started before any posturing or defensive lines were drawn up on either side. Alethia, you still must repent of your sins to access the atonement. You still cannot expect Jesus will save you if you willingly choose evil. You still cannot disobey Jesus and expect he will save you. You still have no way around the principle of repentance. None of us do.



I'm flying out of town (for 5 days) in a few hours, I hope to check back in but it may be a few days between posts. Please, do not feel obligated to simply write a "quick retort". I would much rather you consider and think about the principle of repentance; consider what the Holy Spirit tells you; and then tell me if you believe in the principle of repentance and if it applies to you. That is, if you feel any obligation to enter this simple process of repentance (which we both agree is a process that will take time). Thank you for your comments Alethia.

Clear
eifux2tz030c

 

[zomg]

I must say that this is the nastiest forum I have ever participated in.

I can think of several that are much, much worse. This is the most tame multi-religion forum I visit.

 

[Katzpur]

I can think of several that are much, much worse. This is the most tame multi-religion forum I visit.

I agree wholeheartedly! Try visiting a strictly "Christian" forum and see how welcome you are made to feel. In a poll on this forum a long time ago, the question was posed, "Are Mormons Christians?" The vote was overwhelmingly "yes."

 

[Apex]

I can think of several that are much, much worse. This is the most tame multi-religion forum I visit.

I think it depends upon the topic being discussed. Some topics are essentially off limits here. These same topics would be treated fairly well in other forums. At the same time the topics that would be off limits elsewhere can be discussed fairly civilly here.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

We’ve used up six posts so far and we are still, very MUCH in agreement on all these specific sentences you offered and I continue to agree with the scriptures you quoted.

We are not in agreement.

If we were in agreement you would stop posting statements that I disagree with. One comes to Christ when he realizes that he is sinful and feels a godly sorrow for his sins; his faith is in Christ's blood. That person receives forgiveness of sins, is saved by faith in His blood, and because God began that work in him, he spends the rest of his life following the Shepherd. You do not have to stop sinning in order to receive eternal life; you need to have the desire to stop sinning(do Mormons only baptize sinless people)? His love and work in a person is an ongoing process, refiner’s fire, of sanctification. Following the Shepherd and being sanctified involves the refiner’s fire.

Still, the truths remain that if you are to be saved, it will be ultimately through the merits of Jesus and NOT your own merits. And if you are to access the "merits of Jesus Christ", you still must begin to repent of your sins Alethia. You still MUST Obey Jesus before he will save you.

You can’t have it both ways. If the blessing of eternal life is predicated upon obedience to Christ instead of on Christ’s righteousness, it is not on the merits of Christ. If a person must obey Christ in order to be saved, beginning to repent of his sins is not good enough.

For example, As you correctly pointed out in your post #140 when you said "This does not mean that a person is instantly changed into the person he/she will eventually become; there is a process". I very much agree with this observation you made. Repentance is also a process that may take considerable time, perhaps several thousand years (who knows...),

No one lives even one thousand years. After this life, you will be judged on what you did in this life. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord will not impute sin because that man had faith in the blood of Christ.

Alethia, you still must repent of your sins to access the atonement.

Please tell me why you think there is more sin in my life than, say, there is sin in your bishop’s life? If a person is a Christian, it is a given that God is both working in that person and will complete His work.

You still cannot expect Jesus will save you if you willingly choose evil. You still cannot disobey Jesus and expect he will save you.

You still cannot say that God will give you opportunity to stop sinning for several thousand years or that He does not impute Christ’s righteousness to the sheep. Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Repentance begins when a person realizes that he is a sinner in need of a Savior.

I'm flying out of town (for 5 days) in a few hours, I hope to check back in but it may be a few days between posts.

Have a pleasant trip.

 

[Katzpur]

Uh... just an FYI. Clear is not LDS.