LDS Atonement

[Watchmen]

The Source of Truth is the Holy Ghost. If a non-LDS gets a different answer than the LDS gets, according to LDS teachings, it is because only worthy(obedient) baptized LDS can have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. Therefore if a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, or Protestant is not given an assurance that the LDS teachings are true, it is believed that something is amiss in his or her life.

That is just one of many possible explanations. It certainly is NOT the only explanation.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

We believe it does...
1 Cor 15: 39-41
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the bcelestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

How odd that you should quote verses that say nothing about God or salvation.

Matthew 25 talks about only two places(one for the sheep who are blessed of the Father and one for the goats who are cursed):

Bible, Matthew 25
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

John chapter three again speaks of only two divisions:

Bible, John 3
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

That is just one of many possible explanations. It certainly is NOT the only explanation.

You throw words around without any LDS scripture to support them. Please give us an LDS scripture verse that tells us there are other explanations.

 

[Katzpur]

You throw words around without any LDS scripture to support them. Please give us an LDS scripture verse that tells us there are other explanations.

The burden of proof is on you. There is nothing in your post to indicate that "if a non-LDS gets a different answer than the LDS gets, according to LDS teachings, it is because only worthy(obedient) baptized LDS can have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost."

Therefore if a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, or Protestant is not given an assurance that the LDS teachings are true, it is believed that something is amiss in his or her life.

You're doing some pretty selective reading of that passage. First of all, anyone desiring a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true must pray (a) having faith in Christ and (b) having a sincere desire and real intent to know. How many Hindus, Muslims or Buddhists do you know who have faith in Christ? In order for any of these people to receive an answer to a prayer concerning the truth of the Book of Mormon, they would have to first come to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the mediator between God and men, which would make them Christians, and not Hindus, Muslims or Buddhists. A Catholic or Protestant asking for a witness from the Holy Ghost would have to pray with an open mind, believing that there is a very good chance that the Book of Mormon is indeed what it purports to be. Why would God reveal the truth to someone who is already convinced that it's a work of fiction written by a con-man?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

You're doing some pretty selective reading of that passage. First of all, anyone desiring a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true must pray (a) having faith in Christ and (b) having a sincere desire and real intent to know. How many Hindus, Muslims or Buddhists do you know who have faith in Christ? In order for any of these people to receive an answer to a prayer concerning the truth of the Book of Mormon, they would have to first come to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the mediator between God and men, which would make them Christians, and not Hindus, Muslims or Buddhists.

I misread the following quote from etherjaromomni:

Clear, judging by the way your posts have caused my soul to be touched by the Spirit of Truth, I can say with a voice of gladness that you are understanding these truths correctly. It fills my soul with indescribable joy to see the light of truth dawning in the eyes of another human being. I stand as a personal witness that I, as a Latter Day Saint, seek for all truths, wherever they can be found. And, when the teachings of inspired men don't answer all of my questions to my satisfaction, I delight in knowing that I can appeal to the pure Source of Truth. Yes, God is the same today as he was in ancient times. He does still speak to his children. Prophets and apostles are on the earth today, as they were in ancient times. You can appeal to your Father in Heaven, and expect to be enlightened with pure knowledge from on high. I urge all mankind to search out eternal truths, wherever they can be found... be it in the teachings of the Hindu, the Muslim, the Buddhist, or the Mormon.
Then, take those truths, one by one, to God, and ask Him for confirmation.
And finally, be willing to do whatever it takes to live your life by those principles.

I thought that he (etherjaromomni) was suggesting that the Hindus, Muslims or Buddhists could pray about the Book of Mormon. You’re right...it won’t do them any good to pray without faith in Christ. But then why should a Christian pray to know about Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, or Mormonism? Do Mormons search for eternal truths in Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism?

A Catholic or Protestant asking for a witness from the Holy Ghost would have to pray with an open mind, believing that there is a very good chance that the Book of Mormon is indeed what it purports to be.

And if the Catholic or Protestant’s mind is open as you say and he receives a warning to avoid the Book of Mormon, is it because he isn’t sincere or worthy? Is it because Satan answered his prayer instead of the Holy Ghost?

Why would God reveal the truth to someone who is already convinced that it's a work of fiction written by a con-man?

Why would someone who has been convinced by the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction written by a con-man pray about the Book of Mormon?

 

[Katzpur]

I thought that he (etherjaromomni) was suggesting that the Hindus, Muslims or Buddhists could pray about the Book of Mormon. You’re right...it won’t do them any good to pray without faith in Christ. But then why should a Christian pray to know about Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, or Mormonism? Do Mormons search for eternal truths in Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism?

In my opinion, there is only one reliable way for any of us to come to a knowledge of spiritual truth, and that is to ask God. We Latter-day Saints search for truth wherever we may find it and do not believe that we hold a monopoly on it.

In 1978, President Spencer W. Kimball and the First Presidency issued the following statement: “The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.”

B. H. Roberts, a former LDS Apostle, had previously stated: “While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men, it is ONE of God’s instrumentalities for making known the truth; yet God is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. He raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend; not always giving a fulness of truth such as may be found in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ; but always giving that measure of truth that the people are prepared to receive. Mormonism holds, then, that all the great teachers are servants of God among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God’s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them… Whenever God finds a soul sufficiently enlightened and pure; one with whom His Spirit can communicate, lo! He makes of him a teacher of men.”

And if the Catholic or Protestant’s mind is open as you say and he receives a warning to avoid the Book of Mormon, is it because he isn’t sincere or worthy? Is it because Satan answered his prayer instead of the Holy Ghost?

If a Catholic or a Protestant has a open mind, there is no legitimate reason for him to "avoid" the Book of Mormon. There is no danger in reading a book that stands as a witness to the divinity of Jesus Christ and of His power to redeem God's children. If someone truly has an open mind, he will be sincere in his search for truth. Reading the Book of Mormon with a genuine desire to understand its message, pondering what it teaches and praying to God for a witness from the Holy Ghost will not result in an answer from Satan. What on earth kind of God would respond to a request for spiritual guidance by ignoring that request and letting Satan answer instead?

Why would someone who has been convinced by the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction written by a con-man pray about the Book of Mormon?

Don't ask me, but I've seen it happen on many occasions. Clearly, some people have a rather distorted idea of what sincere prayer actually is. A sincere prayer does not mean saying, "Okay, God... I've read the stupid book. Now is it true or not? Nope? Okay, thanks for the heads up. By the way, I knew the answer already."

 

[ἀλήθεια]

In my opinion, there is only one reliable way for any of us to come to a knowledge of spiritual truth, and that is to ask God. We Latter-day Saints search for truth wherever we may find it and do not believe that we hold a monopoly on it.

In 1978, President Spencer W. Kimball and the First Presidency issued the following statement: “The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.”

B. H. Roberts, a former LDS Apostle, had previously stated: “While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men, it is ONE of God’s instrumentalities for making known the truth; yet God is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. He raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend; not always giving a fulness of truth such as may be found in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ; but always giving that measure of truth that the people are prepared to receive. Mormonism holds, then, that all the great teachers are servants of God among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God’s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them… Whenever God finds a soul sufficiently enlightened and pure; one with whom His Spirit can communicate, lo! He makes of him a teacher of men.”

I highlighted in red. If LDS have the "fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ" and other groups have only a "measure of truth" that non-LDS are prepared to receive, what additional truths do LDS expect to learn from Confucius, Mohammed, and Buddha?

If a Catholic or a Protestant has a open mind, there is no legitimate reason for him to "avoid" the Book of Mormon.

If God tells you to do something, should you do it?

There is no danger in reading a book that stands as a witness to the divinity of Jesus Christ and of His power to redeem God's children. If someone truly has an open mind, he will be sincere in his search for truth. Reading the Book of Mormon with a genuine desire to understand its message, pondering what it teaches and praying to God for a witness from the Holy Ghost will not result in an answer from Satan. What on earth kind of God would respond to a request for spiritual guidance by ignoring that request and letting Satan answer instead?

So now you are suggesting that only Protestants and Catholics who have closed minds, are not willing to read the Book of Mormon, are not willing to ponder its message, and are insincere would receive revelation from God telling them that the Book of Mormon is not true and should be avoided from that point on.

You tell me, "What on earth kind of God would respond to a request for spiritual guidance by ignoring that request and letting Satan answer instead?" Can God tell someone that the Book of Mormon is not true?

A sincere prayer does not mean saying, "Okay, God... I've read the stupid book. Now is it true or not? Nope? Okay, thanks for the heads up. By the way, I knew the answer already."

I don't know any Christians who pray to God like that. You sure assume a lot about people, don't you?

 

[Watchmen]

I don't know any Christians who pray to God like that. You sure assume a lot about people, don't you?

I'm fairly certain she's not making any assumptions, but is basing her statement on her personal experiences with such high-minded "Christians."

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I'm fairly certain she's not making any assumptions, but is basing her statement on her personal experiences with such high-minded "Christians."

First of all, I would not refer to a brother in Christ as high-minded. Second, if that person were a Christian, he would not be insincere in his prayers. Third, he wouldn't pray at all for an answer to something that had already been answered. If God has revealed truth to you, why would you ask Him to reveal the same truth again?

I noticed that you are answering for Katzpur and you put the word Christians in quotation marks. Why the quotation marks? If you are doubting that the persons she was referring to are Christians, that's a good indication that you don't really believe what she said.

 

[Watchmen]

First of all, I would not refer to a brother in Christ as high-minded. Second, if that person were a Christian, he would not be insincere in his prayers. Third, he wouldn't pray at all for an answer to something that had already been answered. If God has revealed truth to you, why would you ask Him to reveal the same truth again?

First, I would refer to condescending jerks as high-minded. Second, being Christian does not equate to being perfect and, indeed, many Christians do offer insincere prayers (Jesus even warned of this). Third, you're assuming the person we're speaking of already has an answer. Maybe they don't. Or, maybe they think they have the answer, offer a sincere prayer, and learn otherwise.

I noticed that you are answering for Katzpur and you put the word Christians in quotation marks. Why the quotation marks? If you are doubting that the persons she was referring to are Christians, that's a good indication that you don't really believe what she said.

Because such a jerk is not Christ-like.

 

[Katzpur]

I highlighted in red. If LDS have the "fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ" and other groups have only a "measure of truth" that non-LDS are prepared to receive, what additional truths do LDS expect to learn from Confucius, Mohammed, and Buddha?

I couldn't possibly say what I would expect to learn before I learned it. I know very little about these religions, but I do believe that if I were to take the time to study them I would undoubtedly find a new way at looking at something I've learned in my own faith. I can easily imagine gaining an insight into something I'd never given any thought to before.

If God tells you to do something, should you do it?

Of course. Just be sure that you know it's God who's telling you. And now for the question you haven't yet asked but are about to: And how do you know it's God telling you? I can't tell you. Spiritual experiences are by their very nature subjective.

So now you are suggesting that only Protestants and Catholics who have closed minds, are not willing to read the Book of Mormon, are not willing to ponder its message, and are insincere would receive revelation from God telling them that the Book of Mormon is not true and should be avoided from that point on.

No comment.

You tell me, "What on earth kind of God would respond to a request for spiritual guidance by ignoring that request and letting Satan answer instead?" Can God tell someone that the Book of Mormon is not true?

I don't believe He could or would.

I don't know any Christians who pray to God like that. You sure assume a lot about people, don't you?

I based my statement on the comments of Christians who presume to know that the Book of Mormon is false before they bother taking the matter to God.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I couldn't possibly say what I would expect to learn before I learned it. I know very little about these religions, but I do believe that if I were to take the time to study them I would undoubtedly find a new way at looking at something I've learned in my own faith. I can easily imagine gaining an insight into something I'd never given any thought to before.

So you do not think that studying and memorizing God’s word, attending temple sessions, and having the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost would teach you all truth? Or do you want to please the followers of Islam, Confucius, Buddha and others by attempting to learn from them?

Of course. Just be sure that you know it's God who's telling you.

I asked, "If God tells you to do something, should you do it?" I didn’t ask, "If you are receiving instruction but don’t know who is giving it, should you do it?" God is God. Earlier you asked, ​

What on earth kind of God would respond to a request for spiritual guidance by ignoring that request and letting Satan answer instead?

So if God doesn’t let Satan answer prayers that are prayed to God, how could a person not be sure his prayer was answered by God?​

I based my statement on the comments of Christians who presume to know that the Book of Mormon is false before they bother taking the matter to God.

First of all, Christians do not pray like that. Second, people can receive revelation from God without asking for it. Examples:
Exodus 3
1Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
2And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Acts 9
1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

 

[Katzpur]

So you do not think that studying and memorizing God’s word, attending temple sessions, and having the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost would teach you all truth?

Of course not. Many truths are found in places we would not be likely to look. More importantly, sources other than those you mention can enhance our understanding of truths we have already been taught.

Or do you want to please the followers of Islam, Confucius, Buddha and others by attempting to learn from them?

Pleasing someone else has never been my reason for pursuing knowledge.

God is God.

Absolutely brilliant. :bow: What else can I say?​

So if God doesn’t let Satan answer prayers that are prayed to God, how could a person not be sure his prayer was answered by God?

Short answer: Some people don't have ears to hear what God is saying to them.​

Longer answer: If a person approaches God in prayer, asking Him for confirmation that the Book of Mormon is true, but convinced that it's not, he is not going to hear anything God has to say. Such a person is going to conclude that God told him one thing when, in fact, God was trying to tell him something entirely different.​

First of all, Christians do not pray like that.

Says the person who just got through accusing me of "assuming a lot about people." There are 2 billion Christians in the world. Are you seriously expecting me to believe that you know how all of them pray? Or is it just that you have some kind of insider knowledge as to who qualifies as a "real" Christian?

Second, people can receive revelation from God without asking for it.

I've never denied that. Most of the time, though, wisdom is given to those who humble themselves and ask for it. Satan, on the other hand, requires nothing but the opportunity to deceive by whatever means available to him.

 

[Orontes]

Hello ἀλήθεια

Seems you have reengaged the thread. If so, then these posts remain unanswered:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...2-post109.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...2-post110.html

Further, you also have not explained or justified why none of my questions have been answered. This despite the fact it has been brought up repeatedly. Here is one such post: one. This is another: two.

The LDS doctrine of pre-existing spirits does not in any way create an idea of fairness to reward and punishment. All men are to be as holy as God is holy to live in God's Presence. Lacking that degree of holiness, all men equally deserve punishment or separation from God.

If you believe what you post above, explain:

Why does an infant deserve the same punishment as a rapist?

Why would a reindeer herdsman growing up in Siberia who lived a life never knowing or hearing of Christ be justified getting the "equally deserve(d) punishment or separation from God"

Why are people born in difference circumstances?

In the Mormon idea of pre-existence all intelligences exist without beginning or end; the Heavenly Father made them into spirits but who they were was not determined by him. Some were noble and great and some were not. When they came to earth, they were not all the same. In Mormon teaching, man determines his own fate and God does not change men's hearts.

Is your stance that God does change men's hearts i.e. make men good? Given goodness is a moral category and morality to be meaningful depends on choice, how can a thing be designated good if that thing doesn't make the choice? In a moral dynamic: the freely acting agent is credited with the act. If freedom is removed from the equation, then neither culpability or merit can be assigned.

Does God test men because it is the only way he can learn what choices they will make?

If one believes choice is real and possibility actually exists (as in there is no fate), then yes. If one believes in a determinism then there is no morality, let alone sin, and man cannot be condemned.

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Gen. 22:12​

Is the Gospel of Thomas considered scripture by LDS or do LDS just choose to use parts of it to support their beliefs?

You are confused. The point isn't whether LDS hold the Gospel of Thomas as scripture or not, rather, the point is what were the beliefs held during the early phase of the Jesus Movement. The Gospel of Thomas, as well as a whole host of pseudopigrapha and other similarly dated texts, illustrate what those views were: all of which predate the canonization of the Bible.

How is what I posted in the OP in error?

This is the dubbed OP that didn't seem overtly rhetorical:

"I would question whether LDS believe that a baptized Presbyterian who has faith in Christ can have the Gift of the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands by an LDS priesthood holder. And can a baptized LDS who has received the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost be assured of exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, without obedience to seeking out his ancestors and submitting their names for vicarious temple work, without paying a full tithe to the LDS church, without attending his meetings on a regular basis, without keeping the Word of Wisdom(dietary law), and without keeping his covenants that he makes in the LDS temple?

Where was I mistaken?"​

This was my reply:

"I've not read all the thread, but maybe I can respond to your questions. To the perhaps rhetorical question: "I would question whether LDS believe that a baptized Presbyterian who has faith in Christ can have the Gift of the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands by an LDS priesthood holder.": correct such a person cannot have the Gift of the Holy Ghost. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is dependant on authority. A person may feel the influence of the Holy Ghost however. The key difference between the two is one is an abiding condition, while the other is not.

Question two: "And can a baptized LDS who has received the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost be assured of exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, without obedience to seeking out his ancestors and submitting their names for vicarious temple work, without paying a full tithe to the LDS church, without attending his meetings on a regular basis, without keeping the Word of Wisdom(dietary law), and without keeping his covenants that he makes in the LDS temple?"

The Source of Truth is the Holy Ghost. If a non-LDS gets a different answer than the LDS gets, according to LDS teachings, it is because only worthy(obedient) baptized LDS can have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. Therefore if a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, or Protestant is not given an assurance that the LDS teachings are true, it is believed that something is amiss in his or her life.

The above is ignorant of Mormon rhetoric: non-LDS receiving answers from the Holy Ghost is not dependent on being a member of the LDS Church, quite the contrary. Mormonism is based on the core notion of personal revelation and that any and all can receive this.

The above most recent post of yours is not focused on the LDS Atonement. This is simply another example of many posts of yours that move in different directions from the initial thread's post. It also indicates your refrain about focusing on the actual thread OP was and is disingenuous.

Now if you cannot answer the above many questions about your various posts and assertions, it seems you should simply admit such. If you are unwilling to answer, but persist in driving a position, while ignoring questions uncomfortable for your view, then your stance is disingenuous.