LDS Beliefs and the Bible (6 Discussions)

[FFH]

Can the Bible alone support LDS doctrine?

Discussion 1

The Plan of our Heavenly Father

1) God has used ancient and modern prophets to reveal his plan through all generations of time.

2) Joseph Smith was a modern day prophet of the Lord, who restored the fullness of Jesus Christ's gospel in these last days.

3) The Book of Mormon is a sacred record of those who lived on the ancient American continent, some of whom Christ personally visited, after his death on the cross.

4) The Holy Ghost reveals God's truths to men on earth.

5) Moroni (who buried the plates, in what is now known as Upstate, New York, where Joseph Smith later discovered them) has promised us, in the Book of Mormon, that if we pray with real intent, we can know the "truth of all things".

Moroni 10: 4-5
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Discussion 2

The First Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ

1) Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
2) Repentance
3) Baptism by Immersion for the Remission of Sins (by one who possesses the correct authority)
4) Laying of of Hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost (by one who possesses the correct authority)

Endure to the End (continued obedience to God's laws)

Temple ordinances can be performed, after a year of continued obedience to the principles of Christ's restored gospel, allowing the individual to partake of complete salvation and exaltaion with God the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ, in their kingdom (highest degree of glory).

Discussion 3

Apostacy of Christ's True Church
Restoration of the Fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ

Discussion 4

Plan of Salvation

Pre-mortal Existence
Eternal Progression
Eternal Families
Ongoing Work for the Dead in Sacred LDS Temples

Law of Chastity
Word of Wisdom (LDS health code)

Discussion 5

Sacrifice Brings Blessings

Fasting
Tithes and Offerings

Discussion 6

Three-fold Mission of the Church

Perfect the Saints
Proclaim the Gospel (Christ's fully restored gospel)
Redeem the Dead

Also please refer to: The LDS Articles of Faith

Joseph Smith ~ First President of the LDS faith and author of the Articles of Faith

 

[FFH]

Temple ~ Salt Lake City, Utah

 

[FFH]

John the Baptist appeared to Joseph Smith, layed hands on his head, restoring the Aaronic Priesthood, which is required in order to perform Baptisms in the LDS faith.

John the Baptist laying hands on Joseph Smith, restoring the Aaronic Priesthood, necessary for Baptism in the LDS faith

John the Baptist Conferring the Aaronic Priesthood

Peter, James and John later also appeared to Joseph Smith, layed hands on his head, restoring the Melchizedek Priesthood, which is used to bestow the Gift of the Holy Ghost after baptism, by the laying on of hands.

Peter, James and John, laying hands on Joseph Smith, restoring the Melchizedek Priesthood to earth once again

Melchizedek Priesthood Restoration

These two priesthoods are what set us apart from other faiths. There is no way to be exalted with God without these two priesthood powers.

 

[FFH]

God the Father and the Son appearing to Joseph Smith

LDS rendering of Christ's appearing in the clouds (second coming)

 

[Fish-Hunter]

This looks great FFH. Help me understand who will be on this thread. How should we start?

 

[Katzpur]

FFH, if you were actually presenting a missionary discussion, and the person you were teaching began by denying that we have our free agency, what would be your next step? I'm just curious, because it seems to me as if the whole gospel message revolves around God wanting us to make right choices. Would you even bother wasting your time teaching such an individual?

 

[FFH]

FFH, if you were actually presenting a missionary discussion, and the person you were teaching began by denying that we have our free agency, what would be your next step? I'm just curious, because it seems to me as if the whole gospel message revolves around God wanting us to make right choices. Would you even bother wasting your time teaching such an individual?

According to a certian LDS member, who has documented her encounter with Christ during a near death experience, sin is looked upon in heaven as a learning experience.

We can ONLY learn and grow by having the possibility of wrong choices. Sin is not condoned, but rather part of God's plan. God has created evil (Satan), which Mestemia has made me aware of by posting the scripture concerning this in another thread. Somehow this seems contrary to God's will, but it's every bit of God's plan, as is righteousness. There must be a possibilty of wrong choices in order for us to progress to becomin like God and eventually becoming gods ourselves.

God has set before us the right choices and the wrong choices and has made the differences extremely clear, blessings and cursings will follow our choices.

God us showing us a better way. We may choose evil, but we will be settling for much less than we could ultimately have, that being life with God.

Why would we want to choose life apart from God ???

On one extreme would be outer darkness, on the other extreme would probably be the lower and mid parts of the Celestial kingdom, remember there are three levels within this kingdom.

I want to enter into where God lives, that being the highest level of the highest kingdom (Celestial kingdom).

Here is the plan set before you, choose for yourself what you want.

Celestial
Terrestrial
Telestial

Outer Darkess

Many will act like they're interested in knowing more...

I move on.

Many will argue...

I move on.

Many will flat out disagree...

I move on.

As a missionary I didn't hang out with those who were not ready or willing to hear the gospel at that moment.

Only in this way was I able to bring 5 people into the church in Japan. Most left without a SINGLE baptism, including my brother in law, who served in Japan also. He being raised in a wonderful LDS home, his mother was one of the past General Relief Society Presidents of the church. Dwan J. Young

He and his father came back to Japan, while I was on my mission and visited me twice, which gave me great encouragement.

They both own and operate Young Electric Sign Company (YESCO) The huge signs you see on the freeway are some of their work.

He is a super bright individual, yet he did not get one convert.

The key is in moving on to the next person. It's a numbers game. Too many Elders get hung up on one person, thinking they're interested. I made the same mistake early on in life, when I dated a non-member who ACTED like she was interested in the church but her heart was far from being interested.

Many people will ACT interested, but their hearts are far from wanting to know the truth, it's one of Satan's best tricks.

 

[Katzpur]

You move on to the next person, right. It's one thing to waste your time on something you think is interested. We all do that from time to time. I know I wasted a lot of time on the fishguy because he pretended to be undecided on which religion to embrace. What I don't understand is why you would waste your time on someone who starts out by telling you that he doesn't accept the idea of free agency. It seems to me that if a person believes he is not free to choose his path, our time could be spent more productively than trying to convince him otherwise.

 

[FFH]

You move on to the next person, right. It's one thing to waste your time on something you think is interested. We all do that from time to time. I know I wasted a lot of time on the fishguy because he pretended to be undecided on which religion to embrace. What I don't understand is why you would waste your time on someone who starts out by telling you that he doesn't accept the idea of free agency. It seems to me that if a person believes he is not free to choose his path, our time could be spent more productively than trying to convince him otherwise.

This is a forum, I don't have time restraints or someone else supporting me on my mission. I found out later, from my mother, that the church paid for my mission, because my dad was broke.

I felt an urgency to MOVE ON to find those who were truly interested. When I hesitated to move on the spirit convicted me to no end, until I gave in and MOVED ON.

The reason for this was made evident later, when I found out that the church had paid my way. I had saved for two months worth of my mission, that's it, it barely covered my two month MTC training.

Fish, SEEMS interested, and has questions, that's a SIGN of being interested in knowing more.

I'm only interested in answering questions and correcting the errors found in the King James.

"God is a spirit" is one of the biggies.

I used to have a recurring dream that I was on one mission after another. I got to about the third or fourth mission and the dreams finally stopped. I got the message and finally started posting on this forum.

I'm not a missionary, just fulfilling my "mission here on earth".

I won't stand by when I hear people quote the King James and base their belief system ENTIRELY on it.

Maybe that's why I'm here, just to correct the King James mistakes. That's what I love to do and has been a passion for me. I've thoroughly been through the Joseph Smith Translation and know the horrible errors found in the King James and feel a need to get that word out, more than anything else I do on this forum.

I'm not in it to convert anyone, that's not what this forum is about, and that's not anyone's job anyway, including full-time missionaries, it's the job of the Holy Ghost to convert, I'm only here to educate and so are you, I would assume.

 

[FFH]

I feel a need to make it clear, I wouldn't want anyone to do or believe something they do not want to believe or do, THAT IS CONTRARY TO GOD'S PLAN.

I'm only here to answer questions, and feel uniquely qualified to do so.

We all have our unique qualifications.

I can't be a Katzpur, anymore than Katzpur can be an FFH type poster. We are all vital parts of Christ's "body".

Can one part of the body function properly without the other ???

 

[Katzpur]

Fish, SEEMS interested, and has questions, that's a SIGN of being interested in knowing more.

It can be a sign of being interested or a sign of being disingenuous. If you choose to kid yourself into thinking there is any genuine interest here, that's your prerogative.

I'm only interested in answering questions and correcting the errors found in the King James.

Have you even considered how backwards your thinking is? The fishguy isn't going to give any credence to what Joseph Smith had to say about the KJV. He thinks Joseph Smith was a false prophet and a wokf in sheep's clothing. Suppose a Muslim were to try to convince you that something was true because Mohammad said it was? You'd have to believe Mohammad was a true prophet before you'd consider believing his words, wouldn't you?

"God is a spirit" is one of the biggies.

You're right. It is. But posting from the JST isn't going to convince anybody of anything -- not when they are convinced that Joseph Smith was a fraud.

 

[FFH]

It can be a sign of being interested or a sign of being disingenuous. If you choose to kid yourself into thinking there is any genuine interest here, that's your prerogative.

It makes no difference to me whether he's interested or not, it's still fun to discuss this stuff in this type of a setting.

This forum is a unique setting, it brings things to the surface we would not normally consider, like the whole "God is a spirit" flawed/incorrect scripture in the King James.

If that's all I've gained from conversing with Paul (who brought that scripture to the surface) and Fish Hunter, then I feel it was worth it. At least now I know where they stand in their faith.

I truly feel sorry that so many base their faith on the King James. Their faith is incomplete, as is the King James Bible.

God wants to make us complete and whole again, just as he did by restoring the King James by inspiring Joseph Smith to make the necessary corrections and fill in the missing pages, passages, words, punctuation and even corrected the faulty grammar.

The book of Moses is the first 13 chapters of Genesis restored, which is word for word the same as the first 13 chapters of Genesis in the Joseph Smith Translation.

Have you even considered how backwards your thinking is? The fishguy isn't going to give any credence to what Joseph Smith had to say about the KJV. He thinks Joseph Smith was a false prophet and a wokf in sheep's clothing. Suppose a Muslim were to try to convince you that something was true because Mohammad said it was? You'd have to believe Mohammad was a true prophet before you'd consider believing his words, wouldn't you?

By voicing the truth, they have no excuse when they come before God and say, I didn't know...

There is still a purpose in it. I'm here to educate and this is a forum for religious education, not conversion.

I'm here to properly educate and dispell the lies.

posting from the JST isn't going to convince anybody of anything -- not when they are convinced that Joseph Smith was a fraud.

It makes no difference, God still puts his truths out there by using people like me.

The truth is set before us, what will we do.

See the parable of the "Talents". It has nothing to do with money or even sillier, talents, but it has everything to do with the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and how it will all play out in our lives.

Celestial (Christ's and the Father's) ~ 5 Talents (doubled his money and inherited 1 talent from the other guy)
Terrestrial (Christ's) ~ 2 Talents (double his money)
Telestial ~ 1 Talent (his talent was taken from him)

 

[FFH]

This looks great FFH. Help me understand who will be on this thread. How should we start?

Here is a great place to start.

See this link:LDS.org - Liahona Article - Plain and Precious Truths

Christ came to earth to show us who the Father is, that being a man like you and I, only he has perfected himself and has obtained a perfect immortal body.

After Christ died on the cross and was resurrected he showed himself to his disciples. He had them touch his hands and asked them to give him something to eat, which he did eat. Rember, Christ also entered into the disciples house, where the disciples were hiding, without coming through the door.

Immortal matter is more refined than this earth's dense mortal matter, yet it is still physical matter, just more refined.

God the Father's body is tangible. Christ is God the son and his body is also tangible.

Christ came to show us all aspects of whoe the Father is as a person, spiritually and physically.

 

[FFH]

1 Nephi 13: 40 (Book of Mormon)

And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records (Book of Mormon "Another Testament of Christ"), which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first (New Testament), which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

 

[Orontes]

God has created evil (Satan)...

If God created evil, then God is evil.

 

[McBell]

If God created evil, then God is evil.

How do you figure?

Do you take the same stance on imperfection?
I.E. If God creates imperfection then God is not perfect?

 

[FFH]

If God created evil, then God is evil.

Mestemia made me aware of this scripture in Isaiah...

Thank you Mestemia

Isaiah 45: 7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Moses 3: 9
And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it; for it remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it, yea, even all things which I prepared for the use of man; and man saw that it was good for food. And I, the Lord God, planted the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and also the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Orontes]

How do you figure?

Howdy,

God by definition must be good. If God created that which is opposed to His being then one runs into the dilemma of A producing -A which is logically insurmountable.

Do you take the same stance on imperfection?
I.E. If God creates imperfection then God is not perfect?

Given imperfection is derived from perfection, it depends on how one defines perfection. If perfection entails a moral element then Deity cannot create perfection. The reason is because morality requires free will. Therefore a moral agent cannot be compelled to be good: the move to the good must be a free act.

 

[Orontes]

Mestemia made me aware of this scripture in Isaiah...

Isaiah 45: 7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Yes, the Hebrew for evil translated here is 'rah' which can mean hurt, discomfort, displeasure, adversity, calamity etc. It can also mean what is diametrically opposed to the good. The Isaiah reference with its juxtaposition of light and dark and shalom (which means quiet, tranquility, contentment, peace) and 'rah' would seem to indicate the opposite of shalom: discord, adversity, calamity etc.

 

[FFH]

Yes, the Hebrew for evil translated here is 'rah' which can mean hurt, discomfort, displeasure, adversity, calamity etc. It can also mean what is diametrically opposed to the good. The Isaiah reference with its juxtaposition of light and dark and shalom (which means quiet, tranquility, contentment, peace) and 'rah' would seem to indicate the opposite of shalom: discord, adversity, calamity etc.

According to Joseph Smith, it's not a mistranslation from the original text.

The correct translation, according to inspiration given to Joseph Smith, is evil.

Joseph Smith Inspired Version
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

Check out this link: God creates evil, Isaiah 45:7