LDS Christian challenge of historic Biblical Christians

[Christian Pilgrim]

It seems to me that LDS Christians are put on the defense with people like me... challenging and questioning their LDS faith. How about challenging historic Biblical Christianity in regards to Christian doctrine. Please spare the question of "where in the Bible does it claim to teach sola scriptura, or if God was silent after the cannon of Scripture. How about questioning Christian doctrine according to the Scriptures? Do historic Biblical Christians believe and live according to the Scriptures in regards to faith and practice?

 

[themadhair]

Can I participate in this discussion? I'll be advocating the idea that Jesus being a metaphor for transition of the ‘old and broken ways’ to the ‘new and more loving ways’ is a much better interpretation of the bible than literalism.

 

[Sola'lor]

As long as people live the best the know how I have no problem.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

As long as people live the best the know how I have no problem.

But is that good enough to be reconciled to God as a sinner and rebel against God? If we are okay by living the best to our ability, then Christ suffered and died in vain, right? Do you believe in divine justice, and what standard do you think God uses to determine if we will end up in Heaven? Does God grade on a moral curve?

 

[Sola'lor]

But is that good enough to be reconciled to God as a sinner and rebel against God? If we are okay by living the best to our ability, then Christ suffered and died in vain, right?

No because without Christ nobody could make it.

Do you believe in divine justice, and what standard do you think God uses to determine if we will end up in Heaven? Does God grade on a moral curve?

Since God is the unltimate judge, who am I to say who will make it to heaven and who wont. I can only take what I believe to be true and live by that.

 

[Watchmen]

It seems to me that LDS Christians are put on the defense with people like me... challenging and questioning their LDS faith.

We have no problem answering challenges and questioning the LDS faith. But, as your OP points out, we have a problem with people who do it like you.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

No because without Christ nobody could make it.



Since God is the unltimate judge, who am I to say who will make it to heaven and who wont. I can only take what I believe to be true and live by that.

God has already spoken and answer to your comment above in the Scriptures. The Holy Bible is divine special revelation from above, so we know what God is like, and what He requires of us.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

We have no problem answering challenges and questioning the LDS faith. But, as your OP points out, we have a problem with people who do it like you.

Why does Katz and yourself always make it personal and not about official doctrine? This thread is about LDS Christians challenging historic Biblical Christians about what we believe to be true. Therefore, what are your questions about the historic Christian Faith, and why do you think we are apostate?

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

No because without Christ nobody could make it.



Since God is the unltimate judge, who am I to say who will make it to heaven and who wont. I can only take what I believe to be true and live by that.

This thread is for LDS Christians to examine and question historic biblical Christianity. Therefore, it is not a discussion and debate in what you believe as an LDS Christian. It is your chance to challenge historic biblical Christianity, and show me why I am apostate.

 

[Sola'lor]

Why would I want to attack your faith? If it helps you come closer to God then it is good.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

Why would I want to attack your faith? If it helps you come closer to God then it is good.

I don't think the correct word is attack. Please challenge me because if I'm apostate, then the loving thing to do is to show me the truth. Why is my belief in God apostate? What are the difficult questions that you want to challenge me in regards to Christianity? What's wrong with Biblical revelation, and trusting God in all that He promises in the Bible?

 

[Watchmen]

Why does Katz and yourself always make it personal and not about official doctrine? This thread is about LDS Christians challenging historic Biblical Christians about what we believe to be true. Therefore, what are your questions about the historic Christian Faith, and why do you think we are apostate?

You don't know anything about LDS official doctrine.

As for historic Christian faith, since you asked, was it always full of liars and twisters seeking to bring others down?

 

[Clear]

Christian Pilgrim :

Sola’lor said : “As long as people live the best they know how I have no problem. “
Christian Pilgrim claims : “If we are okay by living the best to our ability, then Christ suffered and died in vain, right?”

I’m not sure why your interpretation of Christianity believes that “living to the best of one’s ability mean’s that Christ’s suffering and death was in vain”. This specific claim does not make sense to me.

God cannot justly expect more of men than their “best”, nor may God justly punish men for doing the “best” that they can, given the various circumstances God provided them. I do believe that Sola’lor is correct that God cannot expect one to live any better than they know how.

For example: God cannot justly punish millions of individuals for not accepting Jesus IF they lived and died without being given the chance to learn of of Jesus due to the very circumstances God placed them in (i.e. when and where they were born, mental capacities, limited life span, etc.) If one is an infant, or mentally unable to obtain moral knowledge and make a free choice, then there simply is NO condemnation that a just God can apply to such individuals.

I believe the agnostics and other types of theists are justified in their complaints regarding “unjust” interpretations of Christianity that condemns those who have not done wrong (infants, the mentally infirm, and all those who have insufficient knowledge or insufficient opportunity to make adequate choices, etc, etc.).

ChristianPilgrim asks: “Do you believe in divine justice, and what standard do you think God uses to determine if we will end up in Heaven? Does God grade on a moral curve?”

Though theists predominantly believe in a “just” God, I do NOT think they believe it is just for a God to create a spirit with defects, and then horribly punish his creation for the very defects and deficiencies and circumstances God created the individual to have.

Even the agnostics and athiests and non-christians correctly point out that God cannot justly punish an individual if the individual lived and progressed morally according to the best moral values God placed within the individuals capabilities. God cannot expect better than one’s “best”.


Clear
siac11h

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

Christian Pilgrim :

I’m not sure why your interpretation of Christianity believes that “living to the best of one’s ability mean’s that Christ’s suffering and death was in vain”. This specific claim does not make sense to me.

God cannot justly expect more of men than their “best”, nor may God justly punish men for doing the “best” that they can, given the various circumstances God provided them. I do believe that Sola’lor is correct that God cannot expect one to live any better than they know how.

For example: God cannot justly punish millions of individuals for not accepting Jesus IF they lived and died without being given the chance to learn of of Jesus due to the very circumstances God placed them in (i.e. when and where they were born, mental capacities, limited life span, etc.) If one is an infant, or mentally unable to obtain moral knowledge and make a free choice, then there simply is NO condemnation that a just God can apply to such individuals.

I believe the agnostics and other types of theists are justified in their complaints regarding “unjust” interpretations of Christianity that condemns those who have not done wrong (infants, the mentally infirm, and all those who have insufficient knowledge or insufficient opportunity to make adequate choices, etc, etc.).



Though theists predominantly believe in a “just” God, I do NOT think they believe it is just for a God to create a spirit with defects, and then horribly punish his creation for the very defects and deficiencies and circumstances God created the individual to have.

Even the agnostics and athiests and non-christians correctly point out that God cannot justly punish an individual if the individual lived and progressed morally according to the best moral values God placed within the individuals capabilities. God cannot expect better than one’s “best”.


Clear
siac11h

You forgot to add (IMO) . I see that your religion states "Deeply Christan", correct? So, how did you come to your conclusions that you posted? How do you personally determine what is Christian in faith and in practice?

 

[Clear]

Christian Pilgrim :

Sola’lor said : “As long as people live the best they know how I have no problem. “
Christian Pilgrim claims : “If we are okay by living the best to our ability, then Christ suffered and died in vain, right?”

Clear asks for clarification on Christian Pilgrims claim regarding Christ's suffering and death being "in vain" if individuals are "okay" by living to the best of their ability:

Clear states: “I’m not sure why your interpretation of Christianity believes that “living to the best of one’s ability mean’s that Christ’s suffering and death was in vain”. This specific claim does not make sense to me.

God cannot justly expect more of men than their “best”, nor may God justly punish men for doing the “best” that they can, given the various circumstances God provided them. I do believe that Sola’lor is correct that God cannot expect one to live any better than they know how.

For example: God cannot justly punish millions of individuals for not accepting Jesus IF they lived and died without being given the chance to learn of of Jesus due to the very circumstances God placed them in (i.e. when and where they were born, mental capacities, limited life span, etc.) If one is an infant, or mentally unable to obtain moral knowledge and make a free choice, then there simply is NO condemnation that a just God can apply to such individuals.

I believe the agnostics and other types of theists are justified in their complaints regarding “unjust” interpretations of Christianity that condemns those who have not done wrong (infants, the mentally infirm, and all those who have insufficient knowledge or insufficient opportunity to make adequate choices, etc, etc.).



Though theists predominantly believe in a “just” God, I do NOT think they believe it is just for a God to create a spirit with defects, and then horribly punish his creation for the very defects and deficiencies and circumstances God created the individual to have.

Even the agnostics and athiests and non-christians correctly point out that God cannot justly punish an individual if the individual lived and progressed morally according to the best moral values God placed within the individuals capabilities. God cannot expect better than one’s “best”.


Clear
siac11h

Christian Pilgrim, I came to the conclusion that you believe Jesus Christs suffering and death to be in vain, if individuals are “ok” when they “do their best” because you said so in the quote above.

However, it doesn't make sense to me why your personal interpretation of Christianity feels that Christ's suffering and death is "in vain" if individuals simply do the very best that they are able to do, Especially since that is all that God can expect of any individual who has ever lived. God cannot expect people to do any "better" than their "best".

Why is this central claim of your Christianity (i.e. that Jesus suffered and died for us) "vain" since there have been literally BILLIONS of individuals who’ve lived and died without knowledge of Jesus and thus, were left simply to “do their best”?

Christ’s suffering and death IS NOT "in vain" in Sola’lor’s interpretation of Christianity if individual’s simply “do their best”.
Christ's suffering and death IS "in vain" in Christian Pilgrim's interpretation of Christianity if individual's simply "do their best".

I'm wondering Why Christ’s suffering and death is “in vain” in your interpretation of Christianity? Why does your version of Christ suffer and die in vain whereas other versions of Christ do not suffer in vain? Without your explanation, I do not understand your claim.

Clear
ei2dr

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Can I participate in this discussion? I'll be advocating the idea that Jesus being a metaphor for transition of the ‘old and broken ways’ to the ‘new and more loving ways’ is a much better interpretation of the bible than literalism.

It's in Same Faith Debates.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

Christian Pilgrim :

Clear asks for clarification on Christian Pilgrims claim regarding Christ's suffering and death being "in vain" if individuals are "okay" by living to the best of their ability: Christian Pilgrim, I came to the conclusion that your feel that Christianity feels Jesus Christs suffering and death to be in vain, if individuals are “ok” when they “do their best” because you said so.

However, it doesn't make sense to me why your interpretation of Christianity feels that Christ's suffering and death is "in vain" if individuals simply do the very best that they are able to do, Especially since that is all that God can expect of any individual who has ever lived. God cannot expect people to do any "better" than their "best".

Why is this central claim of your Christianity (i.e. that Jesus suffered and died for us) "vain" since there have been literally BILLIONS of individuals who’ve lived and died without knowledge of Jesus and thus, were left simply to “do their best”?

For example:
Christ’s suffering and death IS NOT "in vain" in Sola’lor’s interpretation of Christianity if individual’s simply “do their best”.
Christ's suffering and death IS "in vain" in Christian Pilgrim's interpretation of Christianity if individual's simply "do their best".

I'm wondering Why Christ’s suffering and death “in vain” in your interpretation of Christianity? I hope you see the difference. Why does your version of Christ suffer and die in vain and his does not? Without explanation, I do not understand your claim.

Clear
ei2dr

God requires perfect obedience to the law of God, and sinlessness to enter the kingdom of God. Did God provide what we could not provide for ourselves? Here is the Christian gospel in a nutshell:

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. - 2 Cor 5:21

This is why our best efforts are not good enough:

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. - rom 10

 

[ἀλήθεια]

No because without Christ nobody could make it.

Since God is the unltimate judge, who am I to say who will make it to heaven and who wont. I can only take what I believe to be true and live by that.

Maybe you don't know who's going to be in the Celestial Kingdom(LDS version of heaven), but you do know that baptism in a Protestant or Catholic church isn't acceptable in your religion. And don't you know what some of the other requirements are?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Why would I want to attack your faith? If it helps you come closer to God then it is good.

Joseph Smith had no problem attacking our faith; LDS have no problem doing it amongst themselves; and a core LDS belief is that all non-LDS churches are apostate and that our "creeds are an abomination to God" and that we "teach for doctrines the commandments of men." If you believe those things, tell non-LDS what part of their beliefs are wrong. Why wouldn't you want to help non-LDS in that regard?

 

[Watchmen]

This thread is uninteresting for two reasons:

1. We don't play the same word games the anti-Mormons do;

2. The thread is obviously evolving into another platform for anti-Mormons to play their own word games.