LDS: for all of you who disagree with a Prophet of God regarding Proposition 8

[madhatter85]

In the interest of seeing things as they really are, it must be recognized that President-elect Obama has vowed to repeal the federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) which currently protects states from having to recognize same-sex marriages contracted in other states as they ordinarily would be required to do by the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has stated that she would support Obama’s position and actions (http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=33425 ).

In his Oct. 22, 2008, WorldNetDaily column, Matt Barber outlined Obama's position on marriage:

In 2004, Obama called DOMA (the Defense of Marriage Act ) an "abhorrent law" and said, "The repeal of DOMA is essential. … For the record," he continued, "I opposed DOMA in 1996. It should be repealed, and I will vote for its repeal on the Senate floor. I will also oppose any proposal to amend the U.S. Constitution to ban gays and lesbians from marrying." Obama also came out earlier this year in favor of the May 15 California Supreme Court decision that unilaterally redefined natural marriage in that state to include same-sex duos. "I want to congratulate all of you who have shown your love for each other by getting married these last few weeks," Obama gushed. Despite assurances otherwise, these are not the words or policies of a man who opposes "same-sex marriage."

More here.

Although Prop 8 passed legally, I suspect that this victory will not last long. The opponents of Prop 8 will push this to the federal level (all the while claiming it should be a states’ rights issue), Obama will repeal the DOMA, and a piece of federal legislation will be crafted (I doubt a U.S. Constitutional amendment because the states would not ratify it) to override all the state constitutional bans on same-sex marriage in the same vein as the Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act (1862) or the Edmunds Act (1882). I can sniff it on the wind…

The prophets urged us more than two years ago to support an amendment to the U.S. Constitution that would define marriage as only between a man and a woman. Had we been faithful in doing so, we would not now be in this predicament. (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/3/7#7)

1st Nephi 3:
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.


This Talk by Elder Maxwell given in 1978 was prophetic:

"Make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters, in the months and years ahead, events are likely to require each member to decide whether or not he will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions. President Marion G. Romney said, many years ago, that he had 'never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional or political life.'

"This is hard doctrine, but it is particularly vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked. In short, brothers and sisters, not being ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ includes not being ashamed of the prophets of Jesus Christ. . . Your discipleship may see the time when such religious convictions are discounted. . . . This new irreligious imperialism seeks to disallow certain opinions simply because those opinions grow out of religious convictions.

"Resistance to abortion will be seen as primitive. Concern over the institution of the family will be viewed as untrendy and unenlightened....

Before the ultimate victory of the forces of righteousness, some skirmishes will be lost. Even in these, however, let us leave a record so that the choices are clear, letting others do as they will in the face of prophetic counsel. There will also be times, happily, when a minor defeat seems probable, but others will step forward, having been rallied to rightness by what we do. We will know the joy, on occasion, of having awakened a slumbering majority of the decent people of all races and creeds which was, till then, unconscious of itself. Jesus said that when the fig trees put forth their leaves, 'summer is nigh.' Thus warned that summer is upon us, let us not then complain of the heat."

 

[Alizée]

*Sigh*

And?

It's unfortunate that the Church was involved in Prop 8, but my not supporting it does not affect my membership, nor my eternal salvation.

 

[deseretgov]

I just wish that more church members would follow the council of the prophet(I'm not saying I'm perfect. I definately have a LOT to improve on). Think of how many blessings we could recieve if we could just do these simple things. I'm sure that if all the church would be diligent in their studies of scriptures the seald portion of the Book of Mormon would be revealed to us.

 

[Alizée]

I just wish that more church members would follow the council of the prophet(I'm not saying I'm perfect. I definately have a LOT to improve on). Think of how many blessings we could recieve if we could just do these simple things. I'm sure that if all the church would be diligent in their studies of scriptures the seald portion of the Book of Mormon would be revealed to us.

We weren't required to follow this one.

Latter-day Saints are free to disagree with their church on the issue without facing any sanction, said L. Whitney Clayton of the LDS Quorum of the Seventy. "We love them and bear them no ill will."

Link here

 

[deseretgov]

We weren't required to follow this one.

We aren't required to live any commandments. I understand that the Prop 8 thing wasn't a commandment. But no matter what the prophet asks me to do i try to do. I want the blessings of following the prophet. Sometimes the Lord will request us to do somtething simply to see if we will follow him. There may be no positive or negative consequences but our obedience is simply being tested. I know I'm not perfect but I do my best to be on the obedient side. Just as I'm sure you do.

 

[Watchmen]

We aren't required to live any commandments. I understand that the Prop 8 thing wasn't a commandment. But no matter what the prophet asks me to do i try to do. I want the blessings of following the prophet. Sometimes the Lord will request us to do somtething simply to see if we will follow him. There may be no positive or negative consequences but our obedience is simply being tested. I know I'm not perfect but I do my best to be on the obedient side. Just as I'm sure you do.

But it's really not a question of obedience. The failure to obey is sin and here, it's already been said by the church that there are no repercussions for those who did not support Prop 8.

 

[deseretgov]

But it's really not a question of obedience. The failure to obey is sin and here, it's already been said by the church that there are no repercussions for those who did not support Prop 8.

That doesn't make sense. If failure to obey is a sin then not obeying a church leader is a sin. The statement that the church said there are no repercussions would be saying that the church says that not obeying is a sin. I'm not disagreeing with either statement what I'm saying is that they don't go together.

Disobeying is a sin and the severity of the sin is determined by what is being commanded. The church cannot take away the consequence for an action. But the church can determine the severity of a command it gives. So not supporting prop 8 can't keep you out of the temple or put you in any bad standing within the church. But as you said disobeying is sin. In this instance maybe not a huge one. But then not stopping to help someone who needs help is a sin too. Thinking a bad thought is a sin too. Not all of then are very severe but they are still sins.

Anyway what I'm saying is that perhaps this was a test from the Lord to determine who would follow His command. To see who would follow his command, even on things that have little to do with worthiness. (Not that I'm perfect, but)Would you rather follow the Saviour in all things, or only those big things?

 

[LuisDantas]

Excuse me. I'm not a LDS member, but I want to ask something. Are (some of) you interpreting the quote passages as support for Proposition 8? Or, perhaps, as an omen of divisive times?

I ask because to my (somewhat untrained) eye there is nothing there that seems to repeal same-sex marriages. Of course, I am aware that LDS members have a high regard to traditional families with an explicit goal of raising chidren. But since that choice of yours wasn't being put under risk, it is still unclear why Proposition 8 should get your support.

Unless, I suppose, deep down you are just a bit disgusted by the way society keeps straying away from your ideals of family and relationships. That I may understand to some degree, but not enough to deny the people who want to marry the right to do so.

 

[Watchmen]

But there are consequences for not following a command and here there are none. Thus, it was not a command. There was no requirement. And...the church has been wrong before on these type of issues.

 

[madhatter85]

But there are consequences for not following a command and here there are none. Thus, it was not a command. There was no requirement. And...the church has been wrong before on these type of issues.

Excuse me, but no, the church has never been "wrong" on any types of these issues.

by claiming that you are claiming that the Lord errs in guiding and directing his church.

 

[madhatter85]

Excuse me. I'm not a LDS member, but I want to ask something. Are (some of) you interpreting the quote passages as support for Proposition 8? Or, perhaps, as an omen of divisive times?

I ask because to my (somewhat untrained) eye there is nothing there that seems to repeal same-sex marriages. Of course, I am aware that LDS members have a high regard to traditional families with an explicit goal of raising chidren. But since that choice of yours wasn't being put under risk, it is still unclear why Proposition 8 should get your support.

Unless, I suppose, deep down you are just a bit disgusted by the way society keeps straying away from your ideals of family and relationships. That I may understand to some degree, but not enough to deny the people who want to marry the right to do so.

It has been foretold the calamities that would fall upon all nations in these, the last days, because of Satan's influence and people not heeding to the council of the prophets

 

[madhatter85]

But it's really not a question of obedience. The failure to obey is sin and here, it's already been said by the church that there are no repercussions for those who did not support Prop 8.

Ao what would you do if the Lord asked you to vote for Prop 8 directly? would you? or would you disagree with God and do your own thing?

 

[LuisDantas]

It has been foretold the calamities that would fall upon all nations in these, the last days, because of Satan's influence and people not heeding to the council of the prophets

And surely there is some truth to the claims that Satan's favored tools include the ill-adviced actions of men who mean well but are weak in wisdom, don't you agree?

 

[madhatter85]

And surely there is some truth to the claims that Satan's favored tools include the ill-adviced actions of men who mean well but are weak in wisdom, don't you agree?

Agreed, However, the Aposltes of Christ's true church are definitely not "weak in wisdom"

 

[Apex]

Excuse me, but no, the church has never been "wrong" on any types of these issues.

by claiming that you are claiming that the Lord errs in guiding and directing his church.

Sorry, but the Church was wrong on this one. We should keep our religious agenda out of politics except in the extreme instances when our very religious beliefs and practices are in imminent danger. This was not one of those instances.

 

[Watchmen]

Ao what would you do if the Lord asked you to vote for Prop 8 directly? would you? or would you disagree with God and do your own thing?

I don't play "what if."

Church said no discipline for those who vote NO. Respect and love brothers. Sisters. Why can't you?

 

[madhatter85]

Sorry, but the Church was wrong on this one. We should keep our religious agenda out of politics except in the extreme instances when our very religious beliefs and practices are in imminent danger. This was not one of those instances.

How do you know for certain it was not the case? are you the Prophet? did you recieve the reveation to speak out on this subject?

 

[Alizée]

How do you know for certain it was not the case? are you the Prophet? did you recieve the reveation to speak out on this subject?

Did you?

And again, I'll refer you to:

Salt Lake Tribune

Latter-day Saints are free to disagree with their church on the issue without facing any sanction, said L. Whitney Clayton of the LDS Quorum of the Seventy. "We love them and bear them no ill will."

If that was such the case, I doubt the Elder Clayton would be stated what he stated in the Salt Lake Tribune.

 

[Alizée]

Excuse me, but no, the church has never been "wrong" on any types of these issues.

[/quote]

Then I suggest you take a refresher course.

Try on Black and the Preisthood for you first class.

 

[madhatter85]

Then I suggest you take a refresher course.

Try on Black and the Preisthood for you first class. [/quote]

That was not incorrect of Joseph Smith, it was instituted of God.