LDS: Heirs of Salvation

[TrueBlue2]

"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God...And ALL children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven." (D&C 137: 7-10)

I have often wondered about these scriptures. What does it mean to be an "heir to the celestial kingdom?" And does the last part mean we should feel less sorry for the children of Africa with bloated stomachs, and little chance to live? What about the children of, let's say Iran? Had they lived they likely would have been worshipping Allah, and in a worst case scenario perhaps even become a terrorist. Should we consider them lucky if they die young? What are your understandings of these scriptures?

 

[Starfish]

I don't have much understanding, just feelings. I don't feel less sorry for those little children, but I do feel some comfort.
I suspect it must just tear at the Lord's heart to see his cherished babies abused. So at death, I imagine him receiving them into his arms, just as we would receive a rescued child.

I've also wondered about this, because it would motivate a delusional adult to kill their child, with the aim of giving that child an easier road to exaltation. Obviously this is completely wrong and against God's will, however a limited and warped understanding might justify it.
Logically speaking, I'd rather die young than become a terrorist, and am very grateful that I had other options besides those two.

 

[Scott C.]

"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God...And ALL children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven." (D&C 137: 7-10)

I've always understood the Celestial Kingdom in this context to mean the highest degree of that kingdom or in other words, exaltation. Agree? I ask because I once had a discussion with a member who thought it did not necessarily mean exaltation.

 

[TrueBlue2]

Yes, I agree. So, what about all those children dying in the midst of civil strife, or elsewhere in the world? Should we pity them or be glad they escaped a harsh and violent world?

 

[Scott C.]

Yes, I agree. So, what about all those children dying in the midst of civil strife, or elsewhere in the world? Should we pity them or be glad they escaped a harsh and violent world?

I think of the three disciples of Jesus in the BofM who wanted to stay in mortality, where the rest were more anxious to make it to heaven. I think the question gets to the root of how we feel about mortality. Do we rejoice in the chance to be on earth and to live joyfully or do we see it as something difficult to be endured? In the premortal life, if given the choice, would we have chosen to live a full life or to die early? I think we would have chosen the full life, as we saw mortality as a great blessing.

 

[Katzpur]

"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God...And ALL children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven." (D&C 137: 7-10)

I have often wondered about these scriptures. What does it mean to be an "heir to the celestial kingdom?" And does the last part mean we should feel less sorry for the children of Africa with bloated stomachs, and little chance to live? What about the children of, let's say Iran? Had they lived they likely would have been worshipping Allah, and in a worst case scenario perhaps even become a terrorist. Should we consider them lucky if they die young? What are your understandings of these scriptures?

I hope this isn't going too far off topic, but this doctrine is probably the single most difficult doctrine of any in the Church for me to feel good about. I hope I can explain why without offending anybody. (I asked my Stake President about it once and he said I had a good point, so that made me feel like a little less of a heretic.)

Okay, one step at a time. "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God..." To me this is not saying that anyone who would have accepted the fulness of the gospel during mortality had he been given the opportunity to do so will automatically go to the Celestial Kingdom. We're all aware, I think, of other scriptures which explain that these individuals will be given the chance to hear and accept the gospel in the Spirit World after their death but prior to their resurrection. Obviously, God knows their hearts and He knows that they have a desire for truth, so He can safely say that they "shall be heirs of the Celestial Kingdom." But they still need to hear and accept the gospel and they still need to have the saving ordinances performed on their behalf by proxy.

So far so good, but let's move on to "...and ALL children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven." This doesn't make sense to me. While it's true that they are innocent and pure until they have reached the age of accountability, who's to say what kind of choices they would have made had they been allowed to live just a few years longer? It seems to me that it would make a lot more sense for them to have to actually accept the gospel in the Spirit World, just as those who died as adults without having heard the gospel on earth must do. I would think that there would be some children who died who, if given the opportunity in the Spirit World to make an informed decision about the gospel, would not have accepted it. But according to this scripture, they won't even be given this opportunity. In some ways, it seems unfair to those of us who have to go through the experiences of mortality, overcoming temptation, etc. before we can attain the Celestial Kingdom, but in other ways, it seems unfair to the children, too. After all, they never had the joy of realizing that the gospel is true. They never came to this realization on their own, so in a way, they really missed out.

I know that God is not going to be unfair to any of us, so I've got to conclude that, for the time being, there are a few pieces of this puzzle that are missing. Do any of you see what I'm saying and agree? (I have a feeling the answer's going to be "no," since I've had this conversation so many times in the past, and it always is.)

 

[Starfish]

I know that God is not going to be unfair to any of us, so I've got to conclude that, for the time being, there are a few pieces of this puzzle that are missing. Do any of you see what I'm saying and agree? (I have a feeling the answer's going to be "no," since I've had this conversation so many times in the past, and it always is.)

I can see what you're saying and it makes sense. I don't have any answers, but on this issue, I'm content to wait till we have those missing puzzle pieces. One thought: we know almost nothing of our experience in the pre-existance. It could tie-in somehow.

 

[TrueBlue2]

Okay, one step at a time. "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God..." To me this is not saying that anyone who would have accepted the fulness of the gospel during mortality had he been given the opportunity to do so will automatically go to the Celestial Kingdom. We're all aware, I think, of other scriptures which explain that these individuals will be given the chance to hear and accept the gospel in the Spirit World after their death but prior to their resurrection.

So, to be an "heir" means they will be given every opportunity to accept the inheritance, but they will still have to choose? Remember, the incident that inspired this revelation in the first place was the fact that Joseph's brother, Alvin, had died and Joseph had subsequently seen him in the Celestial Kingdom. And it made him ponder and then ask. Alvin hadn't been dead for long.

but let's move on to "...and ALL children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven." This doesn't make sense to me. While it's true that they are innocent and pure until they have reached the age of accountability, who's to say what kind of choices they would have made had they been allowed to live just a few years longer?

This likely would have been more palatable for all of us had Joseph said "all children born in the covenant who die before reaching the age of accountability..."

But then let's not forget that God is All Knowing. He forsees the future. KNOWING that these children are going to die before they reach the age of accountability perhaps they are chosen from among the elite of heaven, and promised they will return to God in short order, and that their exaltation is secured??

Just trying to motivate thought.

It seems to me that it would make a lot more sense for them to have to actually accept the gospel in the Spirit World, just as those who died as adults without having heard the gospel on earth must do. I would think that there would be some children who died who, if given the opportunity in the Spirit World to make an informed decision about the gospel, would not have accepted it. But according to this scripture, they won't even be given this opportunity. In some ways, it seems unfair to those of us who have to go through the experiences of mortality, overcoming temptation, etc. before we can attain the Celestial Kingdom, but in other ways, it seems unfair to the children, too. After all, they never had the joy of realizing that the gospel is true.

But, aren't we forgetting that the gospel exists on both sides of the veil. They have accepted it already. Perhaps they are so valiant they don't have to endure the tortures of this world?

 

[TrueBlue2]

I don't have much understanding, just feelings. I don't feel less sorry for those little children, but I do feel some comfort.
I suspect it must just tear at the Lord's heart to see his cherished babies abused. So at death, I imagine him receiving them into his arms, just as we would receive a rescued child.

Just wanted you to know I agree with this though whole-heartedly!

 

[Katzpur]

But then let's not forget that God is All Knowing. He forsees the future. KNOWING that these children are going to die before they reach the age of accountability perhaps they are chosen from among the elite of heaven, and promised they will return to God in short order, and that their exaltation is secured??

Just trying to motivate thought.

Sounds suspiciously like pre-destination to me.

 

[TrueBlue2]

Sounds suspiciously like pre-destination to me.

Judas didn't have to make the choice he did. But he was definitely chosen for the role he played.

 

[Sola'lor]

I hope this isn't going too far off topic, but this doctrine is probably the single most difficult doctrine of any in the Church for me to feel good about. I hope I can explain why without offending anybody. (I asked my Stake President about it once and he said I had a good point, so that made me feel like a little less of a heretic.)

Okay, one step at a time. "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God..." To me this is not saying that anyone who would have accepted the fulness of the gospel during mortality had he been given the opportunity to do so will automatically go to the Celestial Kingdom. We're all aware, I think, of other scriptures which explain that these individuals will be given the chance to hear and accept the gospel in the Spirit World after their death but prior to their resurrection. Obviously, God knows their hearts and He knows that they have a desire for truth, so He can safely say that they "shall be heirs of the Celestial Kingdom." But they still need to hear and accept the gospel and they still need to have the saving ordinances performed on their behalf by proxy.

Yeah, I agree with this. That's why we have missionary work in the Spirit World. I've heard some interesting things about this from church leaders. One of these is that we will still have the languages we used on Earth as the languages in the Spirit world. But it's a little off topic maybe I'll start another thread about it.

So far so good, but let's move on to "...and ALL children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven." This doesn't make sense to me. While it's true that they are innocent and pure until they have reached the age of accountability, who's to say what kind of choices they would have made had they been allowed to live just a few years longer? It seems to me that it would make a lot more sense for them to have to actually accept the gospel in the Spirit World, just as those who died as adults without having heard the gospel on earth must do. I would think that there would be some children who died who, if given the opportunity in the Spirit World to make an informed decision about the gospel, would not have accepted it. But according to this scripture, they won't even be given this opportunity. In some ways, it seems unfair to those of us who have to go through the experiences of mortality, overcoming temptation, etc. before we can attain the Celestial Kingdom, but in other ways, it seems unfair to the children, too. After all, they never had the joy of realizing that the gospel is true. They never came to this realization on their own, so in a way, they really missed out.

I can see what you mean. I was under the understanding that those children who die young are those whose spirits in the Premortal life were so valiant that they did not need to reach the age off accountability. They were so valiant and obedient that they did not need to experience temptation and be accountable.

I've also heard that children who die young will be resurrected in that form and will be able to be raised to adulthood by a loving family in the Millenium.

I also think that what people would have done is irrelevent. Only what we doo is relevant to our salvation. I think in that first part of the scripture the term would have accepted it is merely a difference in ability to articulate. I take it to mean that if they have an accepting attitude in our live even if it hasn't manifest itself God knows it's there. So God knows whether or not a person will accept the Gospel in the Spirit World. The simplest way it to say it is, 'if they wouldhave accepted it in this life.' While it really has nothing with what they would do and everything with what they will do.

This is also why I think it is irrelevent if a baby was born in a Mulsim country or not becuase it's not about if they would have been Muslim or a terrorist in this life. But it does have to do with what they will do since they died before the age of accountablity. Thus it becomes fair that young children who died can recieve 'instant' salvation without having to go through a time of accepting the gospel. Again going back to what I said before, they were so valiant in the pre-mortal life that they didn't need to be tried to see if they would accept or reject the gospel.

[/quote]I know that God is not going to be unfair to any of us, so I've got to conclude that, for the time being, there are a few pieces of this puzzle that are missing. Do any of you see what I'm saying and agree? (I have a feeling the answer's going to be "no," since I've had this conversation so many times in the past, and it always is.)[/quote]

I understand what you are saying and I think you have a good point for discssion but as far as my understanding is concerned I don't agree.

 

[Katzpur]

I can see what you mean. I was under the understanding that those children who die young are those whose spirits in the Premortal life were so valiant that they did not need to reach the age off accountability. They were so valiant and obedient that they did not need to experience temptation and be accountable.

If they were so valiant and obedient, they could experience temptation and pass with flying colors. The test would be a piece of cake for them. If a child is taken before the age of accountability because he is so good that He doesn't need to be tried, then this decision was made by God before the child was born. Was God worried that the child might possibly not live up to what appeared to be his potential pre-mortally, and so He decided to take him before that could happen -- just in case? I doubt that very much. That just sounds too much like the Protestant doctrine that certain people have been chosen to be saved and will be saved based on a decision that was made by God before they were born. No, somehow I don't think that's it. I think there's a reason I could accept if I just understood it; I just don't think that's the one.

 

[Sola'lor]

If they were so valiant and obedient, they could experience temptation and pass with flying colors. The test would be a piece of cake for them. If a child is taken before the age of accountability because he is so good that He doesn't need to be tried, then this decision was made by God before the child was born. Was God worried that the child might possibly not live up to what appeared to be his potential pre-mortally, and so He decided to take him before that could happen -- just in case? I doubt that very much. That just sounds too much like the Protestant doctrine that certain people have been chosen to be saved and will be saved based on a decision that was made by God before they were born. No, somehow I don't think that's it. I think there's a reason I could accept if I just understood it; I just don't think that's the one.

Yes I see what you mean. From what I understood it was that the two purposes of this life are to:

1. Gain a physical body.
2. Be tried to see if we will be obedient to God's commandments.

THey were so obedient that there was no point i having them go through part 2 they had already completely proved it in the Premortal life (I don't know what actions that would entail though). So they only needed to fulfill part 1. The only explaination I can give you as to why someone wouldn't be called to remain here and pass with flying colors is that through their actions in the premortal life they reached such level that it would have been unfair to have them go through the trials, temptations, and hardships in this life. There would be no point in sending someone here who would pass with flying colors as the point of having trials would be irrelevent in their case since they would pass with such ease. (Again I'm using the term would just becuase it's easier than making a huge long explaination.)

It's also similar to mentally impaired people. They are the ones who personally cast out Satan and his followers from Heaven. They are here mearly to gain physical bodies and they are kept in a state of innocence(Sorry I suddenly forgot how to spell that) to prevent then from being subject to the law of accountability. It's not something God gave them becuase he already determined they would. Through their great actions in the Pre-mortal life they earned it.

A simple but flawed example would be like them doing something to earn a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card.

That probably doesn't help but maybe it explains my position a little better.

I'm going to explain more in another post since I fail to directly address many of the things your brought up.

 

[Sola'lor]

If they were so valiant and obedient, they could experience temptation and pass with flying colors. The test would be a piece of cake for them.

My only explaination in defense of my position is that this life is supposed to be a test and be hard. It makes trials and hardship worthless if someone could pass with flying colors.

If a child is taken before the age of accountability because he is so good that He doesn't need to be tried, then this decision was made by God before the child was born.

Many diecisions were made by God before we were born. All of the People who are and were and will be Prophets were ordained to those callings before they were born on the earth.

Was God worried that the child might possibly not live up to what appeared to be his potential pre-mortally, and so He decided to take him before that could happen -- just in case? I doubt that very much.

I doubt that very much too. It wasn't worry on God's part. It was that they performed such great actions that they earned something better than the rest of us. It wasn't that God specifically picked them out. It was that they took the actions of their own free will to reach a greater, higher level, through obedience, loyalty, etc.

That just sounds too much like the Protestant doctrine that certain people have been chosen to be saved and will be saved based on a decision that was made by God before they were born.

No I don't believe that.people are chosen to be saved. Those young children took such actions in the pre-mortal life that they earned it. God gave it to them only because they did what it took to earn it. Not because He selected some people randomly to be saved and other have to endure trials.

No, somehow I don't think that's it. I think there's a reason I could accept if I just understood it; I just don't think that's the one.

Hopefully I'm explaining my position better.

 

[zookeeper]

Yes, I agree. So, what about all those children dying in the midst of civil strife, or elsewhere in the world? Should we pity them or be glad they escaped a harsh and violent world?

Both.