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LDS letter on same-sex marriage

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
It is my religious belief that it is wrong to murder too... not to steal, etc... so is that enforcing my morals on others? No one is telling others not to live together, or what to do behind closed doors. Do what you want if it is not hurting anyone.
Take a deep breath. Exhale. Focus. Now think really hard. Can you think of any significant difference, any at all, between two people who love each other and want to make a lifetime commitment, and killing someone else? I realize it might be subtle for a Mormon, but work on it and see what you come up with.

sure it is natural - murder is natural too, wild anmals kill and eat eachother all the time, does that mean it is ok?
Two different questions. (1) Natural vs. unnatural. (2) Right vs. wrong.

Please correct emiliano, who thinks it's unnatural. Thank you.

I have a few relatives who are homosexual, I know it is a physical condition etc...(a handicap) It is a hard topic. I can see how it would be easier to love someone of the same sex - I mean they are the same, you know and understand what is the same. The real test is if you can love everyone - love, not someone like yourself, but someone unlike yourself in every way, that is where you really learn how to love. There are advantages to opposites too, best to marry someone who has strengths where you have weaknesses and visa versa, stronger more stable family that way... lots of studies showing kids do better with a mother and a father, and if they don't have kids - I still think it is better for the person too, learning how to love someone different and all that...celebrate diversity by getting to know the opposite sex :) (racist / bigotry / sexist if you can only handle your own kind...)

I assure you that I'm not in the least handicapped.
You seem to be advocated for bisexuality, a rather strange position to take. Maybe you should re-think it.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Maybe some people are. But that's not the point of this thread. The letter said nothing about what people can do or should do in their private lives. It's about preserving the traditional definition of marriage as was voted for by the people of California.
Maybe you should point that out to all the people in this thread who are arguing that this is justified because homosexuality is immoral.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
No one is doing that. Homosexuality has existed since the beginning of time without the benefits of marriage.

The people of California voted in 2000 to define marriage in the traditional sense. Yet judges changed it. The letter is saying the the LDS Church is joining in with a coalition of churches in the effort to amend the constitution to support the will of the people.

No one is forbidding homosexuality to the public. That's not even realistic.
No, you're forbidding marriage to homosexual people.

btw, you all know that due to the same mentality and reasoning, homosexuality itself was illegal in most states until recently, right?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
The statement was false, as it pertains to the OP.
Not from this thread it isn't. Re-read the anti-gay marriage posts, in which homosexuality is called immoral, filth, destructive of society...Sure sounds to me like they're trying to impose their morality on others. Otherwise, why care about someone else's marriage?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Hello,

I'm surprised by your comment. Simply looking at this thread I have addressed jurisprudential issues as they relate to, and in support of, Proposition 8. These included: judicial overreach, the invention of rights claims, errors in equity claims and the ability of religious groups to participate in the political process. None of these explanatories have been refuted.

Now the thread has moved in an odd direction. It seems to be tacking toward sex acts. This indicates people either do not know the contents of proposition 8, do not understand proposition 8 or are simple sloppy thinkers. Now, if you feel there are "fallacies" in any of the arguments I've put forward or that there was some repeated refutation: indicate the fallacy and/or where these refutations are. Otherwise, your comment is in error.

For starters, any such argument needs to be couched in terms of the California Constitution. Any try to make it in English, if possible.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
In essence yes, I believe i am living righteously because i adhere to the laws of the Land as well as the Laws of God.
So all of the non-Mormons here at RF are less righteous than you. Due to your having that special insight into what God wants.

How about if you start by showing that there is such a thing?

The same direct pipeline veryone else has access to. It's not may fault there are people who opt out of using it. LEt's see, there are scripture, prophets, and personal revelation.
Great. I did all that. What was revealed to me is that there is no God, and everything you believe is wrong. Therefore I'm more righteous than you.

It's not my fault that you refuse to aknowlege God exists. That is my defense and say what you will about it it's my belief.
It not my fault that you refuse to acknowledge that God doesn't exist. Now would you like to argue on common ground, using logic, or is your bizarre myth-system all that you have to resort to?

You are making it sound as if it is some sort of homosexual exclusion to my statements when clearly i have pointed out that homosexuality is no different to us than sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman. It's all part of the law of chastity.
And here's what you get to do about that law: follow it. That's all. You do not, and should not, have the right to try to coersce anyone else into following it.

My backup is the words of God's Prophets on the earth today:
The Family: a Proclamation to the World

It;s not my fault you chose not to listen to God's prophetic council.
And it's not my fault that you chose to listen to it. Don't have an actual argument then?

please tell me how love unfeighned, charity, and long suffering are immoral. i would love to see your argument.
What do any of these have to do with LDS? I'm talking about your propensity for spreading lies.
We aren't outlawing homosexuality. we just don't want you marrying.
O.K. it's a deal. I won't outlaw LDS, I'll just make sure you don't marry. Sound fair?

we aren't tellign you who you can or cannot love. we are telling you who you can and cannot marry. you can live with your lover all you want. you just won't get marriage benefits.
Same to you. You can live with your mistress all you want; you just won't get marriage benefits. Sound fair?

Why do I constantly have to teach Christians the golden rule? It's like they're compassion-impaired or something.
 

Orontes

Master of the Horse
Hello,

I'm surprised by your comment. Simply looking at this thread I have addressed jurisprudential issues as they relate to, and in support of, Proposition 8. These included: judicial overreach, the invention of rights claims, errors in equity claims and the ability of religious groups to participate in the political process. None of these explanatories have been refuted.

Now the thread has moved in an odd direction. It seems to be tacking toward sex acts. This indicates people either do not know the contents of proposition 8, do not understand proposition 8 or are simple sloppy thinkers. Now, if you feel there are "fallacies" in any of the arguments I've put forward or that there was some repeated refutation: indicate the fallacy and/or where these refutations are. Otherwise, your comment is in error.

For starters, any such argument needs to be couched in terms of the California Constitution. Any try to make it in English, if possible.

Actually, any jurisprudential argument can be couched under Federal of California law. Federal law trumps state law. As to what I referenced: they all concern California's Constitution.

If you don't understand something ask and I can explain.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Actually, any jurisprudential argument can be couched under Federal of California law. Federal law trumps state law. As to what I referenced: they all concern California's Constitution.

If you don't understand something ask and I can explain.

Please don't tell me you're a lawyer. You're mistaken. This is family law, traditionally the domain of the states. The decision of the California law was based on the California Constitution. No federal law was involved.

If you don't understand something ask and I can explain.

That's right, Orontes, I'm a practicing attorney.

The reason we're having trouble understanding you is that you express yourself very unclearly.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
What we're arguing about here is no less than love. Two women love each other. Out of their love, they want to promise to care for each other for the rest of their lives. All who oppose that oppose love.

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is moral, it is the most powerful, the most moral, the most beneficial thing in the world. How do I know? Because I have it. Having love, I know I have right on my side. Having love, I fight against the forces of narrow minded prejudice that try to restrict or belittle my love. There is nothing you can say and ultimately nothing you can do to damage our love, but why would you want to? Why be on the side of petty legalism, when you can promote love? The more you speak out against us, the more convinced I am that your religions are sadly mistaken, unwise and ultimately on the side of evil.

I have a strong hope for this pro-love movement to prevail in the end, though.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
 

Orontes

Master of the Horse
Please don't tell me you're a lawyer. You're mistaken. This is family law, traditionally the domain of the states. The decision of the California law was based on the California Constitution. No federal law was involved.

If you don't understand something ask and I can explain.

That's right, Orontes, I'm a practicing attorney.

The reason we're having trouble understanding you is that you express yourself very unclearly.

The above doesn't address my point which was that a jurisprudential argument may be couched under Federal or California law. This is due to the Supremacy Clause and the Fourteenth Amendment. As to my arguments: as explained: they concern California's Constitution.

I'm not sure who "We're" is, but if you are familiar with basic arguments on the law, my statement should be quite clear. If it is not, ask and I can explain.
 

Tau

Well-Known Member
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

No emotion is more powerful than Love, men and women have died protecting the ones they love.
They will continue to do so.

I say unto the Christian right if God is love than you condem God when you condem two people of the same gender for loving each other.

However.
If they don't love each other and are just using each other for sexual relief then fire away, I do not think shallow animalistic promiscuity is a good thing either really, be you gay straight or bisexual.
 
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Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Go back to one of the many other threads where this has been done and done and done.

What are you talking about? I know you're reasoning. I'm saying that, of course you're telling people what to do in their private lives, or else this wouldn't be an issue. If you didn't care what people did in their private lives, then we wouldn't even be arguing about this.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Hello,

I'm surprised by your comment. Simply looking at this thread I have addressed jurisprudential issues as they relate to, and in support of, Proposition 8. These included: judicial overreach, the invention of rights claims, errors in equity claims and the ability of religious groups to participate in the political process. None of these explanatories have been refuted.


By judicial overreach, I assume you mean that the Supreme Court should not have overturned a law voted into effect by the majority of voters. If you mean something else, you'll have to clarify. If you mean this, it's been done many times. The Supreme Court is there specifically to make sure all laws are constitutional. Voters can't just pass any old law they want. It still has to follow the guidelines of the Constitution. They decided that this law didn't follow those, and so got rid of it.

I assume you mean that marriage is not a right, by your "invention of rights" claim. Again, if that's not what you mean, you'll have to clarify. If it is, then that's fine. It's not a right, it's a priviledge. So, let's take that priviledge away from LDS. It's no big deal, right? Since it's not a right, we can just take it away from anyone we feel doesn't deserve it, without infringing on their basic human rights?

By "errors in equity claims", I assume you mean the gender thing. Again, correct me if that's wrong. It has been shown that "equal" does not mean "exactly the same", it means "of equal value, even though different". There are times when you have to make a distinction based on gender, just as there are times when you have to make distinctions based on other attributes. Those distinctions don't apply in every case. That's like saying "He got off because when he killed someone, he did it in self-defense. I should get off for raping, too, because it was in self-defense". That makes no sense, even though, in the one case, the distinction is perfectly legal and logical. It's the same with saying that gender factors into some separations made by the law, so you can't say it can't be a factor in other distinctions made.

The ability of religious people to participate in the political process has never been denied (and this has been dealt with countless times now). The point is that you can believe whatever you want, but you can't make it legal if it goes against the Constitution. I don't care what you think of homosexuality. I only care that you try to impose your beliefs on others. It's the same way you wouldn't want me or anyone else voting for a proposition banning the LDS religion. We have the right to do that, acording to you, but should we? I don't think so. I don't like the fact that a lot of Christians are uptight about sex and only do the missionary position. Would it be fair for me to try to pass a law banning the missionary position, to try to force all of them to try new things?

Everyone has the right to vote as they please according to whatever belief they have. The point is that the belief that homosexuality is immoral does not necessarily lead to the action of trying to ban it for everybody. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, you have no right to tell others that they can't do it, and, not only that, but you have no grounds Constitutionally to do that.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
It is nothing more than an Argumentum ad Numerum fallacy.
Not really.

If the argument was "Homosexual marriage is wrong because most people think it is" then you would be right. I'm sure some are trying to make that argument - but I don't believe Orontes is one of them.

This is a legal issue that can be decided by the voice of the people. "X is illegal because most people want it to be illegal" is not a fallacious statement. "X is wrong because most people believe it is wrong" is.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Not really.
Yes really.

If the argument was "Homosexual marriage is wrong because most people think it is" then you would be right.
And that is EXACTLY what proposition 8 is attempting to do.
I did notice how you did not reply on the fact that Proposition 8 is nothing more than a rerun of proposition 22.
Now what happened to Proposition 22?

I'm sure some are trying to make that argument - but I don't believe Orontes is one of them.
I do not know where Orontes stands in regards to Proposition 8.
But anyone who supports it is in fact attempting an Argumentum ad Numerum fallacy.

an Argumentum ad Numerum fallacyThis is a legal issue that can be decided by the voice of the people. "X is illegal because most people want it to be illegal" is not a fallacious statement. "X is wrong because most people believe it is wrong" is.
Nice try.
But the fact is that its twin was overturned.
 
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SoyLeche

meh...
I did notice how you did not reply on the fact that Proposition 8 is nothing more than a rerun of proposition 22.
Now what happened to Proposition 22?
I don't live in California so I don't follow it's politics all that much. Is Prop 22 the one that was recently overturned? If so, then the court overstepped its bounds and overturned it.
I do not know where Orontes stands in regards to Proposition 8.
But anyone who supports it is in fact attempting an Argumentum ad Numerum fallacy.
Only insofar as anyone supporting any divisive legislative action is attempting an argument ad numerum.

If "legal" is determined by the voice of the people you can't well say that "X is legal because the people say it is" is a fallacy. It is true by definition.
 
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