LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[Autodidact]

But katz, doesn't reproduction figure in LDS theology? When I try to discuss this issue with LDS, they often assert that the only moral sex is reproductive sex, which I find frankly bizarre. Isn't this related to their religious beliefs?

 

[Autodidact]

LDS, would you agree with this:
We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth, (Journal of Discourse, vol. 4, p. 218)

 

[Magic Man]

I'm not sure if you're just trying to be funny or if this is what you really think we believe. If it's the latter, you're wrong.

I know. I mean, what she said is just crazy, unlike most Mormon beliefs...

 

[painted wolf]

I'm not sure if you're just trying to be funny or if this is what you really think we believe. If it's the latter, you're wrong.

It's pretty much what I was taught.

I did baptisms for the dead, and know the goal is convert the whole of humanity even posthumously. All but those people that will end up in outer-darkness. Tat missionary work will continue in the telestial kingdom, in hopes of eventually bringing all at least to the terrestrial kingdom.

I know the ultimate goal is to marry in the temple so that you can get into the celestial kingdom and eventually get your own planet to populate with spirit children. Like God did here.

I know that gays upset this order of the universe... that is male-female baby making engines. I do admit I make the logical jump that this is what upsets the church.

Are you suggesting that the various LDS Churches I attended were lying?

wa:do

 

[gnomon]

Are you referring to Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia?

Yes.

I'm always amazed that in these marriage debates a whole population of human beings are ignored when the claims made by those who have issues with gay marriage don't realize that their arguments apply to the intersex as well. And that the foundation for their arguments are in a way invalidated not necessarily by intersex but the biology of human sexual development.

 

[madhatter85]

"People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are" (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Nov. 1998, 71).

"We want to help these people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them with their difficulties. But we cannot stand idle if they indulge in immoral activity, if they try to uphold and defend and live in a so-called same-sex marriage situation. To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families" (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Nov. 1998, 71).

Helping Those Who Struggle with Same-Gender Attraction - Ensign Oct. 2007

"Intersex" is much different from the topic at hand. They have a gender. a choice is made and If later they find that it is the wrong choice then it can be changed, simple as that.

 

[gnomon]

Well gee, thanks, but I'll rely on intersex people to let me know what is going on with their legal issues than a religious apologist. While religious apologists continue to heavily fund propositions to narrowly define marriage thus creating arbitrary definitions of sex, not gender, intersex is very much a part of any discussion on marriage equality.

 

[Katzpur]

But katz, doesn't reproduction figure in LDS theology?

It does.

When I try to discuss this issue with LDS, they often assert that the only moral sex is reproductive sex, which I find frankly bizarre.

I think it would be more accurate to say that the Church teaches that "the only moral sex is between a man and a woman who are married." Obviously, not all couples are able to have children. Infertility certainly isn't considered to be sinful. Other couples choose to limit the size of their families, and the Church has never issued a statement saying we should not be able to do so.

Isn't this related to their religious beliefs?

Sexual morality is definitely a part of LDS theology, but as I've said before, I believe it is a huge mistake to try to legislate morality. In my mind, people don't have the right to pass laws prohibiting every behavior they consider to be wrong.

 

[Katzpur]

LDS, would you agree with this:
We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth, (Journal of Discourse, vol. 4, p. 218)

Yes, I'd say that's an accurate statement.

 

[Katzpur]

It's pretty much what I was taught.

Well, it appears that you misunderstood. The statement I objected to was this one:

Eventually everyone is going to be LDS... you will convert eventually even if it's after you are dead. Thus being naturally gay (that is god made you that way) makes it possible that God made people who can't become junior gods/goddesses. It's a deep threat to the order of the universe.

I did baptisms for the dead, and know the goal is convert the whole of humanity even posthumously. All but those people that will end up in outer-darkness. Tat missionary work will continue in the telestial kingdom, in hopes of eventually bringing all at least to the terrestrial kingdom.

Somewhere along the line you missed a few lessons. Yes, we believe in three "degrees of glory" (or kingdoms) in Heaven, but conversion to the LDS Church is certainly not required to end up in one of them. According to LDS doctrine, there will be billions of non-LDS people in Heaven. Hardly anybody will end up in "outer-darkness."

Are you suggesting that the various LDS Churches I attended were lying?

Do you think that's what I'm suggesting?

 

[Katzpur]

I know. I mean, what she said is just crazy, unlike most Mormon beliefs...

Huh?

 

[madhatter85]

Sexual morality is definitely a part of LDS theology, but as I've said before, I believe it is a huge mistake to try to legislate morality. In my mind, people don't have the right to pass laws prohibiting every behavior they consider to be wrong.

Nobody is outlawing homosexuality or the behavior associated with it.

 

[madhatter85]

Somewhere along the line you missed a few lessons. Yes, we believe in three "degrees of glory" (or kingdoms) in Heaven, but conversion to the LDS Church is certainly not required to end up in one of them. According to LDS doctrine, there will be billions of non-LDS people in Heaven. Hardly anybody will end up in "outer-darkness."

This is absolutely correct. The only people that will end up in outer darkness are those who openly rebel against the Savior after having come to understand and accept the fullness of the gospel.

 

[Autodidact]

"People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are" (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Nov. 1998, 71).

There is no reason why I would want to "control" my ability to love and form relationships, just because I do so with another woman. Love is not given to us to control.

"We want to help these people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them with their difficulties. But we cannot stand idle if they indulge in immoral activity, if they try to uphold and defend and live in a so-called same-sex marriage situation. To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families" (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Nov. 1998, 71).

The only problem or difficulty I have is with ignorant bigots like Gordon B. Hinckley. I wonder why rearing my family is not entitled to the same sanctity as his?

http://lds.org/ensign/2007/10/helping-those-who-struggle-with-same-gender-attraction?lang=eng

 

[Autodidact]

Nobody is outlawing homosexuality or the behavior associated with it.

No, just same-sex marriage.

 

[painted wolf]

Well, it appears that you misunderstood. The statement I objected to was this one:

So you don't think that baptisms for the dead are there to convert the dead? And that those in the afterlife or during the resurrection, will be ministered to, to allow them to join the church?
That everyone will get the chance to hear about the LDS church and make up their mind to convert?

Somewhere along the line you missed a few lessons. Yes, we believe in three "degrees of glory" (or kingdoms) in Heaven, but conversion to the LDS Church is certainly not required to end up in one of them. According to LDS doctrine, there will be billions of non-LDS people in Heaven. Hardly anybody will end up in "outer-darkness."

I never said there would be many in outer darkness... just that they are the only ones who have no chance of moving up.

Also you can not reach the celestial kingdom without being a Mormon that has done all their temple work. My mother for example can not get in, she is divorced and no woman gets in without a husband.

Do you think that's what I'm suggesting?

I wasn't sure, that is why I asked.

I'm not attacking the church btw...I'm trying to help others understand some of the psychology of the LDS position... admittedly from my place of understanding. But that place is not one of malice.

wa:do

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are" (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Nov. 1998, 71).

Non-Mormons aren't subject to the discipline of the Church at all.

"We want to help these people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them with their difficulties. But we cannot stand idle if they indulge in immoral activity, if they try to uphold and defend and live in a so-called same-sex marriage situation. To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families" (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Nov. 1998, 71).

Helping Those Who Struggle with Same-Gender Attraction - Ensign Oct. 2007

So... does it work this way for all issues? If people have issues with the LDS Church, do you think it's acceptable to have their frustrations used as the basis of laws against the Church?

 

[Katzpur]

Nobody is outlawing homosexuality or the behavior associated with it.

Technically, you're right. Nobody is outlawing homosexual intimacy. What they are doing, however, is attempting to punish them for being gay by making sure they aren't given the same rights as everybody else. You may argue (as you have in the past) that just as you were free to marry any woman you wanted, all men are currently given that same right. You may insist that just as I was free to marry any man I wanted, all women are currently given that same right. So far, so good. The problem is that there are many men and women who are not currently being given the right to marry any person they want. I'm just willing to leave it between God and them; you're not. That's where we differ and will always differ.

 

[Katzpur]

So you don't think that baptisms for the dead are there to convert the dead?

Proxy baptisms don't convert anybody. Baptism is merely an ordinance that is required in the event that the person decides to convert.

And that those in the afterlife or during the resurrection, will be ministered to, to allow them to join the church?

To allow them to join the Church, yes. To force them to join the Church, no.

That everyone will get the chance to hear about the LDS church and make up their mind to convert?

Yes, everyone will get the chance to choose for themselves. That doesn't mean that everyone will make the same choice. Billions will likely not choose to convert. That choice will not consign them to outer darkness.

I never said there would be many in outer darkness... just that they are the only ones who have no chance of moving up.

True, you didn't give a number or a percentage, but you did say that those who did not convert to Mormonism would end up in outer darkness, which is absolutely false.

Also you can not reach the celestial kingdom without being a Mormon that has done all their temple work. My mother for example can not get in, she is divorced and no woman gets in without a husband.

That's false, too, but to go into any detail on this point would take us even further off topic than we already are. In brief, "exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom" requires certain things that are not needed just to get into the Celestial Kingdom.

I'm not attacking the church btw...I'm trying to help others understand some of the psychology of the LDS position... admittedly from my place of understanding. But that place is not one of malice.

I realize that, but you need to recognize that your understanding is incomplete. That's why I stepped in to make the corrections I did.

 

[painted wolf]

Proxy baptisms don't convert anybody. Baptism is merely an ordinance that is required in the event that the person decides to convert.

To allow them to join the Church, yes. To force them to join the Church, no.

Yes, everyone will get the chance to choose for themselves. That doesn't mean that everyone will make the same choice. Billions will likely not choose to convert. That choice will not consign them to outer darkness.

True, you didn't give a number or a percentage, but you did say that those who did not convert to Mormonism would end up in outer darkness, which is absolutely false.

That's false, too, but to go into any detail on this point would take us even further off topic than we already are. In brief, "exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom" requires certain things that are not needed just to get into the Celestial Kingdom.

I realize that, but you need to recognize that your understanding is incomplete. That's why I stepped in to make the corrections I did.

That's cool.. no need to derail the thread.
I'm sure my knowledge is incomplete...I left early in my time as member of the relief society. Heck, my knowledge of many subjects is incomplete.... but I try to muddle along and learn more.

wa:do

ps. I'm sorry if I accidentally implied that outer darkness was for run of the mill unbelievers. :yes: