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LDS letter on same-sex marriage

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Well here's a weird, made-up theory of my own. Maybe they feel cheated and jealous, because when they were in a comparable situation, instead of fighting for their right to be polygamous, they gave in and gave it up. Like, "Well, if we have to accept society's marriage rules, so do gay people."
Except that the standard position is that it was God's marriage rules, not society's, that ended polygamy. It just happened that God's new rules were revealed right when the LDS Church was under societal pressure to change.

If any Mormons do feel that way, I think it would bely a mistrust in the teaching of their church and a certain cynicism about their prophets.
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
I understand your beliefs, but it puzzles me how as Australians we cany deny rights to homosexuals who make up a small portion of the comminuty the rights of everyone else.
To be honest im disappointed Christians make it their business what people do in their spare time. Homosexuals are just like us, why should we deny them rights? We're a first world country, we should lead the way in allowing homosexuals to partake in society as equals rather than lessers.

My opinion on this is that the church should be responsible for homosexuality within their fellowship, rather than trying to encompass the community as a whole.

The one thing that is somewhat concerning, is the average age of Australians. We are a very old population. If anything, this should be the only thing stopping laws.

And that is it, Australia as a democracy respect minorities but as all societies it must have a common will and morality, Homosexual were given the opportunity to take this issues to the people, if the majority would have seen this as acceptable same marriages would have been accepted, there was a consultation to the people and the result was that marriage in Australia is the union a man and a woman, no other union exist as marriage, this consultation was addressed to the whole of society, so what this got to do with this issue? “My opinion on this is that the church should be responsible for homosexuality within their fellowship, rather than trying to encompass the community as a whole” Your opinion and you are entitle to it:rolleyes:. Are religions part of society?
I am glad that you understand, :slap:now in addition to belonging to a religion I am a member of this society, and when consulted I expressed my opinion, it resulted in a confirmation by the majority of Australians that my opinion and that of my religion must stand. And mate. In Australia Homosexuals do partake in society, it's just that we believe that there are two genders in humans and only their unions can be called marriage.:shout
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
No, he wants you to show a difference between them that should disallow you to marry one gender while allowing you to marry the other (and we're not speaking religiously here, only legally).


Ah, he wants me to believe that there is a third gender in humans and that they should be afforded equals right as the other two. Are you………?
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
Now, this is worth being called an abomination: the use of Bible quotes to justify discrimination. Do me a favor, read some of Luke's Gospel. It has a far better message than that.

Surely you have heard that Christianity is very fond of the Apostle Paul teachings in the area of the creation and proper administration of Christian congregations, but lets us have a look at the apostle Luke’s gospel, what are the verses that in you wisdom support homosexuality?
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
I am sorry to tell you that you encounter homosexuals every day, you just don't know it. I don't know where you live, but if it's in the West, you owe a debt to Alan Turing, a homosexual, who played a huge part in defeating the Nazis. If you enjoy literature, films, television, art or television, you have benefited by the work of homosexuals, I promise you.

I don’t know anything about this fellow, are you saying that his homosexuality defeated the Nazis? I have said this before, it seems that there is an unwritten law that every film and television show have to have a gay person it , if aliens from out space come and see this they will rightly think that most humans are gays. I remarked that I can live with that because I don't watch television all that much and am very selective of what I read as I don’t have time or interest for some kind of literature and films that sprout from them. I didn’t know that they won the war, I know that the Nazi persecuted them but I didn’t know that the allies forces marched against the Nazi because they did this and frankly I think that you are pulling my leg.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Ah, he wants me to believe that there is a third gender in humans and that they should be afforded equals right as the other two. Are you………?

Irritated by your annoyingly large smilies? A bit.

I never said anything about a third gender. Maybe an analogy will make things clearer:

Say there's a golf club that has a rule against women joining (club 'XY'). I hope you can agree that this is gender discrimination.

Now... imagine that another golf club opens in town that has a rule against men joining (club 'XX'). Some people say it's just as nice as the men's club. Does this mean that the gender discrimination no longer exists? No, it doesn't.

If a golfer were to ask to play at club 'XY', whether or not he or she could do so would be based solely on gender. Same for club 'XX'.

This is like the situation where same-sex marriage is prohibited. Men are allowed to do something that women are not (either golf at club 'XY' or marry a woman); women are allowed to do something that men are not (either golf at club 'XX' or marry a man). In both cases, the distinction is made solely on the basis of gender. This is gender discrimination.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Ah, he wants me to believe that there is a third gender in humans and that they should be afforded equals right as the other two. Are you………?

Um...no. He wants you to show what difference exists between the two genders that should allow me to marry one of them and not marry the other. I'm not sure I could put it any more simply, and I'm not sure where you got this third gender stuff.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Um...no. He wants you to show what difference exists between the two genders that should allow me to marry one of them and not marry the other.
Not even that much, actually.

California law already acknowledges that any difference between genders should not be used as an excuse for differential treatment; that much has already been settled. All I'm trying to do is to to get emiliano to acknowledge that the difference between marrying a man and marrying a woman is the gender of the person you're marrying. It seems obvious enough to me, but I'm having trouble communicating this concept for some reason.
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
Oddly enough, I agree. That's why I don't devote any activism to the subject; I'm too busy saving the country from near-destruction by the last Republican administration, and I ask those on the other side to do the same. Once we get the economy on the right track, resuscitate our constitution, and end this stupid war, we can go back to arguing about gay marriage.

I posted a response on those lines, but mball still think that I am dodging the question, there is the issue of distributing the wealth, and deciding what share of the wealth should they get, what kind of home should they buy now that they don’t have to worry about repaying it, commander Che Obama will take from the rich and give to the poor, bankrupt the oil magnates and the wealthy. It is a big task and the expectations too high so it will take a very long time for them to restart the debate. Ending the stupid war may present a bit of troubles for gays because the global Caliphate does not tolerated homosexuals, there are no homosexuals in their countries, not live one anyway. One of the reasons for the invasion was to stop the persecution of gays and feminist so if they cut and rum these people are in deep troubles.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I posted a response on those lines, but mball still think that I am dodging the question, there is the issue of distributing the wealth, and deciding what share of the wealth should they get, what kind of home should they buy now that they don’t have to worry about repaying it, commander Che Obama will take from the rich and give to the poor, bankrupt the oil magnates and the wealthy. It is a big task and the expectations too high so it will take a very long time for them to restart the debate. Ending the stupid war may present a bit of troubles for gays because the global Caliphate does not tolerated homosexuals, there are no homosexuals in their countries, not live one anyway. One of the reasons for the invasion was to stop the persecution of gays and feminist so if they cut and rum these people are in deep troubles.

What does this have to do with same-sex marriage?
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
As I asked before: What is more important than human rights? Would you be of the same opinion, if you imprisoned because you are Christian (or whatever religion you are)?

I think you tried to respond to this question before, but, if that was supposed to be a response to it, it didn't actually answer the question. You're welcome to try again.

You’re a funny. You asked me what are the more important issues that we should direct our attention to, and then this, are you trying to crack my mballs? It was you that when off topic “Yes, of course. Now, maybe you could enlighten us as to what is more important than basic human rights” “As I asked before: What is more important than human rights? What are you trying to pull?
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
You’re a funny. You asked me what are the more important issues that we should direct our attention to, and then this, are you trying to crack my mballs? It was you that when off topic “Yes, of course. Now, maybe you could enlighten us as to what is more important than basic human rights” “As I asked before: What is more important than human rights? What are you trying to pull?

Ah, I missed that considering you didn't say it in response to my question. The point of the question was that there is nothing more important than human rights. All of the things you listed are basically about human rights in the end. I wasn't actually expecting you to list anything. I was expecting you to realize that there is nothing more important. I'm guessing you'd be singing a different tune if it was you being denied basic rights.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Except that the standard position is that it was God's marriage rules, not society's, that ended polygamy. It just happened that God's new rules were revealed right when the LDS Church was under societal pressure to change.

If any Mormons do feel that way, I think it would bely a mistrust in the teaching of their church and a certain cynicism about their prophets.

And in time, when the demands of society require it, the prophet(s) may receive a revelation about God's new rules about gay marriage, as well.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I don’t know anything about this fellow, are you saying that his homosexuality defeated the Nazis? ... I didn’t know that they won the war, I know that the Nazi persecuted them but I didn’t know that the allies forces marched against the Nazi because they did this and frankly I think that you are pulling my leg.

No, his mathematical genius. Here's some info. Historians consider that by breaking the Nazi's "unbreakable" code, he made a huge contribution to winning the war. Unfortunately, he was persecuted for his homosexuality, and committed suicide as a result, thereby depriving us of one of our greatest minds.
 

Orontes

Master of the Horse
As to "proving there are no queer infants": one cannot prove a negative. It is logically impossible. For example, if one denies there is a Santa Clause, there is no "proof" for that claim. Rather, the way one counters such an assertion is to show there is a rotund fellow who lives in the North with flying reindeer giving out toys on Christmas Eve. Similarly, if you wish to counter my claim about there being no gay infants, you would need to bring some evidence to the table. Otherwise, to believe such, never moves beyond bald assertion.

No, that's not how burden of proof works. You made the claim, the burden is on you. If you can't prove your claim, as we both know you can't, intellectual honesty demands that you retract it.If you are speaking of proof per the standards of logic and reason, then it is exactly how it works. If one claims there are no Martians: there is no proving the negative claim itself. It is not logically possible. Logic is based on posits (that a thing exists) from which conclusions are drawn. If someone wishes to believe in a thing in the absence of evidence that is separate from any proof proper. Now, it is possible to disprove negative claims. For example, if I say Paris does not exist, one could present evidence and show I'm wrong. To further the point a little more along the same lines: if I say Atlantis does not exist. The counter would be to show the continent or sunken continent, as it were. To assume and/or conclude the absence of a negative proof means the positive existence of a thing, fails to understand the basics of rationality.

If you are speaking of proof per the standards of logic and reason, then it is exactly how it works. If one claims there are no Martians: there is no proving the negative claim itself. It is not logically possible. Logic is based on posits from which conclusions are drawn. If someone wishes to believe in a thing in the absence of evidence that is separate from any proof proper. Now, it is possible to disprove negative claims. For example, if I say Paris does not exist, one could present evidence and show I'm wrong. To further the point a little more along the same lines: if I say Atlantis does not exist. The counter would be to show the continent or sunken continent, as it were. To assume and/or conclude the absence of a negative proof means the positive existence of a thing, fails to understand the basics of rationality.

Not that I expect anything remotely resembling intellectual honesty from you.
More hostility I see.

Does this mean you then recognize the 15th and 19th Amendments do constitute examples of disenfranchised being empowered?

It means I'm on the verge of putting you on ignore.
You made a claim. I gave simple counter examples. You choose to engage me, not the other way around. I have not been insulting you. I have simply been dealing with your various points. How you respond to the counter examples is your affair.
 
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Orontes

Master of the Horse
Your notions on abuse and victimization have not been universally held. Child brides/grooms have been common across cultures and time. Similarly bestiality also has cultural components. One could also add: consent has not been a universal standard for marriage. If culture is to be the standard for determining sexual appropriateness then the Judeo-Christian Tradition is quite clear on the subject.

The standards should be based on logic, liberty, and compassion, not on any particular culture norms (and especially not savage, primitive ones). Culture needs to progress and evolve.

I see. Who decides what is progressive and evolved and what is primitive and savage for a society? Am I right, you disagree with the democratic process in determining such?
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Well here's a weird, made-up theory of my own. Maybe they feel cheated and jealous, because when they were in a comparable situation, instead of fighting for their right to be polygamous, they gave in and gave it up. Like, "Well, if we have to accept society's marriage rules, so do gay people."

Well, I have my own ideas as to why the LDS church really got involved in this, but I think I will keep them to myself as some would probably find them objectionable and I have no proof for my ideas.
 

Orontes

Master of the Horse
Personally, I'll settle for you refuting or discrediting the numerous studies showing the following:

- the effects of genetic and pre-natal environmental factors on adult sexual orientation.
- "separated twin"-type studies that show strong correlation between sexual orientation of individuals who share genetics, pre-natal environment and nothing else.
- strong correlations between traits developed early in pregnancy and sexual orientation, indicating that by the time the trait is developed, sexual orientation is largely set.
- that behavioral surveys serve as strong predictors of adult sexual orientation as soon as a child is capable of participating in them.


I'm not an expert on the subject. This is a recent exchange with someone I know who actually participates in research in the field. This is from an email exchange he and another had in an group I belong to. The author is non-religious and was opposed Prop. 8:
"While the origins of much homosexuality (at least when developed young [some do in fact make a conscious choice as adults]) remain a mystery, science has NOT found any genetic or hormonal differences or associations. And it is hard to figure how brain structures could be different prior to birth and social experience without genetic and/or hormonal causes. Despite common claims to the contrary, science simply has not detected genetic and hormonal differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals. Indeed, the last genetic research reported in "Science" (by labs at Stanford, Univ. of Chicago, and Western Ontario Univ.) concluded that not only had no relevant genetic marker been found, none was likely to be found. And so that line of research has dwindled.
The major problem with brain structure studies is methodology. The famous study done in early 1990s was so flawed that it no longer has any credibility and has not been replicated. I looked at the source you provided and followed its links, but did not find a description of the research protocols, so I cannot evaluate this one. BUT, even if method is satisfactory for measuring differences reliably, there still remains the problem of causal direction. That is, did brain structure cause homosexuality, or did homosexuality induce brain changes, or did some set of social psychological and/or other environmental factors cause (contribute to) both? We do not know. (We do know that experience can alter brain structure. In other words, differences of brain structure can be a consequence rather than cause.)"​
From my readings this seems a fairly standard view save from those with political agendas.


Catholic Charities voluntarily contracted with the Massachussetts government to provide adoption services. In doing so, they chose to subject themselves to the same standards as the government with regards to discrimination. When the rules regarding discrimination changed, they elected to not continue in their voluntary relationship and continued to be free to discriminate as they pleased.

Thus my point from earlier in the thread: a right doesn't allow the state to be neutral. The right places the state decidedly on one side of the issue and it cannot allow contrary positions vis-a-vis the state. Now there are now less adoption options available in Massachusetts.

Consent for marriage was absent through much of Judeo-Christian tradition, yet it is now a strong part of our current rules and conventions around marriage. It appears we progressed beyond your traditional model some time ago, so that makes me question its relevance in the same-sex marriage debate.

For those who reject cultural appeals and also reject democratic process in determining the norms a society will govern itself by, there is little left save the authoritarian boot. One difficulty I see in this debate is those who are willing to sacrifice democratic process over loyalty to a given position. It is a dangerous view.
 
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