LDS members: why the "lawyers and notaries"?

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Okay, but where are your going to start -- by writing a letter to your bishop or contacting a lawyer?

A letter to Member Records in Salt Lake City. If they mess me around, return my letter and tell me I have to hand it to someone else instead etc, then the threat of lawyer or press involvement will more than likely suffice. But I doubt it'll be necessary.

Well then I guess that makes me equally as guilty. I have also known people who have gone through "the process," including a couple in my ward. They didn't experience any of what you seem to believe is typical.

Fair point.

I genuinely believe that he is looking for a little attention and trying to paint an unnecessarily ugly picture of a process that is generally pretty simple and painless. He obviously has some issues with the Church and it is a "legitimate" way for him to express his grievances. Yes, I absolutely agree that people who want to leave the Church should be able to, and it shouldn't be an excruciating process either. If an attorney is needed, by all means, I would encourage someone to use one. I just don't think it ends up being necessary in the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of cases.

What you say makes sense. If he wants the attention, and to trick people into adding him into the process when he doesn't need to be there in, say, 99% of cases, then yeah. His approach makes sense if he's hoping to attract future customers.

 

[Katzpur]

A letter to Member Records in Salt Lake City. If they mess me around, return my letter and tell me I have to hand it to someone else instead etc, then the threat of lawyer or press involvement will more than likely suffice. But I doubt it'll be necessary.

That's entirely up to you, but since you know that by going straight to Church Headquarters instead of writing to your bishop, you are intentionally trying to go about getting what you want in a roundabout way. Lawyers cost money, and I prefer not to use them just to make a point. I'm also seriously surprised that you'd want to go to the press, and I also doubt the press would be particularly interested in your complaint. To me, it sounds like you're trying to cut off your nose to spite your face. I mean, do you want to have your name taken off the Church's records or do you want to have your 15-minutes worth of fame? Whatever it is you want, I hope you end up happy with the results.

By the way, did I ever mention to you that my husband and I went to Scotland this past September? We LOVED it! Have you ever been to Fingal's Cave on the island of Staffa in the Hebrides? I know that oftentimes locals don't ever bother to see the places tourists come from thousands of miles away to see, so that's why I ask. What an incredible experience!

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

That's entirely up to you, but since you know that by going straight to Church Headquarters instead of writing to your bishop, you are intentionally trying to go about getting what you want in a roundabout way.

Actually no it wouldn't. My membership would be terminated the second someone at the office opened and read that letter, assuming I've specifically mentioned that it's my formal resignation. It's basically about withdrawing consent for them to have access to my information. In the UK we have the Data Protection Act 1998; and there is legal precedent in American law; specifically Guinn vs The Church of Christ of Collinsville. The consent is withdrawn immediately. I understand it'd take a few weeks for them to get the paperwork sent out to my bishop, have him sign it, sent back and have it all verified, but legally speaking I stopped being a member a wee while before that.

Lawyers cost money, and I prefer not to use them just to make a point. I'm also seriously surprised that you'd want to go to the press, and I also doubt the press would be particularly interested in your complaint. To me, it sounds like you're trying to cut off your nose to spite your face. I mean, do you want to have your name taken off the Church's records or do you want to have your 15-minutes worth of fame? Whatever it is you want, I hope you end up happy with the results.

Actually I'd prefer not to use those methods, and would only resort to using them as threats if I felt the Church were trying to jerk me around. I.e. by applying false conditions to a membership that no longer exists so they can keep hold of personal information they're no longer allowed to possess. And again, there's precedent for a citizen to bring a private prosecution without use of a lawyer; at least under American law which, to be honest, is probably what would apply. The Norman Hancock Lawsuit (Mesa AZ 1985). In that case the Church settled out of court.

I should probably mention I'm getting my information from here: http://www.mormonnomore.com

By the way, did I ever mention to you that my husband and I went to Scotland this past September? We LOVED it! Have you ever been to Fingal's Cave on the island of Staffa in the Hebrides? I know that oftentimes locals don't ever bother to see the places tourists come from thousands of miles away to see, so that's why I ask. What an incredible experience!

Oh really? That's great! And no, I've never been to the Outer Hebrides before. I've been to Skye but that's the closest I've got. I've been to a couple of touristy places: Edinburgh, Stirling and Doune Castle (that last one is where they filmed much of Monty Python & the Holy Grail ). Glad you liked it. Scotland's a wonderful place when it's not rainy or overcast. So it's a wonderful place for about half a week each year

 

[Prestor John]

Have you ever tried leaving the Church?

No, I have not tried to leave the Church.

However, I am very familiar with this process because most (if not all) of my friends are either less-active or no longer members of the Church. My older brother is also no longer a member of the Church.

What reason do ex-Mormons have to lie about how difficult the process is; or how much more difficult the Church can make it?

I only have experiences with my "ex-Mormon" friends and family and they come up with many lies in order to try to justify leaving the Church.

My older brother, Jeremy, was assigned to go to the Chihuahua, Mexico mission, but he came home early from the MTC. He claimed that he did so because he was shocked when he learned that we teach that Adam and Eve were real people and that the Fall was a historical event. I knew it for a lie as soon as I heard it because not only did I grow up with him, I also went to many of the same classes in Sunday School and Seminary and I knew for a fact that he knew we believed it to be literal.

The truth of it was that he left a non-member girlfriend at home who claimed that she would not wait for him while he was away. I believe that he had broken his covenants with her before leaving for the MTC and the guilt brought him home (which it should have) but instead of repenting and overcoming it he came home early just to get back together with her. No ifs, ands or buts about it. They married while I was away on my mission. (They are divorced no)

He left the Church soon after coming home from the MTC. He claimed that members of the Church were judging him and giving him funny looks. I personally did not notice anything out of the ordinary and I was actually on "High Alert" for anything like that because I was trying to strengthen him at the time so he would return to the field. Most members thought he had gotten sick or hurt and had to come home because of that. I know this because most of them inquired after his health upon seeing him. After that initial concern died down it was generally accepted that he just needed more time to prepare. Members started asking him here and there (as any concerned friends would) when he was planning to return to the field.

He interpreted their concern to be judgment and ridicule. I did not see this for myself and I believe his guilty conscience caused him to warp their true intentions. I believe that he felt guilty and instead of overcoming it and becoming stronger he let it lead him away from the Church and into a fruitless and destructive relationship.

We still love him to death. He is the best uncle to my boys. But he does drink and he always likes to talk about that as if it were a trophy whenever he comes to visit. Usually accompanied by profane language. He claims to see the missionaries here and there, but no members contact him outside our immediate family.

My best friend growing up, Ryan, went on a mission to Brazil at the same time I went on mine to Canada. When we saw each other after we got home we had a big hug. It was great. His girlfriend before the mission, Melissa, had not waited for him and she was then dating another good friend of ours, Kevin, a less-active member. This kind of broke Ryan up and he soon became inactive. He quickly fell into alcohol and illicit drugs. It was hard for him to hold a job. We still hung out, but he started a band and became all about the music, which was awful screaming death metal. He always smelled of tobacco and marijuana smoke. His father was an active member of the Church and he got throat cancer and died soon after being diagnosed. Ryan took it hard. Got a bunch of tattoos and became really angry. He was even kicked out of his band because of his attitude and being unable to practice due to being absent or showing up drunk or high. Unbeknownst to me, he had been secretly seeing Melissa and got her pregnant behind Kevin's back. Ryan and Melissa live together now with their adorable baby girl Lydia.

Ryan's family has been in the Church for a long time and he does see members from time to time, but he has nothing against the Church. He is just not strong enough to fight against temptation or to take on life's struggles.

The last friend I will mention, Shaun, has always been the most prideful sucker I've known. You can't offer him any constructive criticism. He is always right. Since he was little he has been obsessed with the book of Revelation and what the "end" is going to be like. He became inactive soon after getting sealed in the Temple to his wife, Justine. They both enjoy drinking. I just don't think he likes it when people offer him advice or encourage him to do something. He is just too prideful. He recently moved to Utah to be closer to his wife's family. Her mother is an ex-Mormon and she speaks out A LOT against the Church.

That was more aimed at Prestor since he seems so certain that helping one legally free themselves of a corporate entity is not a 'process'.

It really isn't. At all. The most you might get are friends and family (who happen to be members) calling you up to see how you are doing. Maybe a missionary knock on the door once or twice a year which most likely has nothing to do with your past membership in the Church. They just like knocking on doors.

I haven't legally left the Church yet (e.g. had myself removed from the Records etc). It's one of those things I keep meaning to do but I keep getting distracted by more immediate problems, y'know what I mean?

I really wish that you would not leave the Church. I would strongly encourage you to come back. As your brother in Christ I want you to know I love you and that I want you to be happy. I believe that true happiness can only be found in the Lord Jesus Christ. As a member of His Church you would have everything He wants you to have so that you can come to know Him better and allow Him to comfort and heal you. I don't know your reasons for leaving, but I know that you can overcome anything if you exercise faith in Christ and rely on Him. He loves you so much. He loves you so much.

At worst he is engaging in the same kind of sneering derision ex-Mormons sometimes face from the Church's staunchest defenders. The sort of attitude that sees just about every criticism or observation they make lazily labelled 'anti-Mormon' and dismissed out of hand. Indeed, his reasons are derived from a condescending attitude towards those wanting to leave, that they must be emotionally unstable, angry, bitter people who couldn't possibly be thinking straight because, if they were, why on earth would they want to leave the complete & true Church?

I wish these things didn't happen, but I know they do. However, you shouldn't let that get you down or skew your perception. If this has been a cause of your wanting to leave the Church I just want you to know that their attitude is wrong and you should not let it get to you. Please. I believe that the Church is true and what it teaches can make you happy and whole and unmoved by the pointing fingers of those in that "great and spacious building".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Penguin, why do you doubt what Scott and I are telling you? We are being 100% honest. You seem convinced that we're not.

I think you're both being sincere and honest from your own perspectives, but:

- I recognize that you have strong feelings about the LDS Church, which might be colouring your assessment here.
- I've seen no reason to believe that Naugle is being insincere (though I do recognize that his assessment might be coloured by emotion, too).
- It isn't just a matter of one dissenting view. By my count, we have at least Naugle, whoever runs MormonResignation.com, and the indeterminate number of "lawyers and notaries" from the story in the OP.
- I would think that former Mormons who have been through the resignation process would be more familiar with that process than current Mormons who have never been through it.
- It doesn't make sense that people who want to leave would make the process more difficult than it needs to be.
- All else being equal, I think a larger sample size across a wide geographic area (i.e. these former Mormons) give a better picture of infrequent-but-significant-enough-to-care-about problems than a smaller sample size over a smaller area (i.e. your and Scott's perspectives, it seems).
- I've read about Mormons choosing to leave the church in order to forestall their excommunication (for instance), and the reasons they give seem to make sense for someone who still wants to participate in the lives of their Mormon family members.

 

[Jane.Doe]

Have you ever tried leaving the Church? .

My aunt did. Literally submitting a letter saying that's your intentions was all that was needed.

 

[Katzpur]

My aunt did. Literally submitting a letter saying that's your intentions was all that was needed.

Wow. Some actual evidence for a change. Good job.

 

[Katzpur]

Okay, I'm going to reply to a few of these statements, and just let the others go (mostly because I think it's just a matter of a difference of opinion and there's no use arguing about it).

I think you're both being sincere and honest from your own perspectives, but:

- I recognize that you have strong feelings about the LDS Church, which might be colouring your assessment here.

If you haven't figured out by now that I am "not your average Mormon" and am not the slightest bit afraid to criticise the policies of the Church when I believe them to be in error, you've missed a lot of my posts -- not that my posts would be of any more interest to you than anybody else's. I just think I've made it pretty obvious that I don't hesitate to offer a dissenting voice when I feel strongly about something. I don't try to paint the Church -- as an organization -- as perfect, because I don't believe that it is.

- I would think that former Mormons who have been through the resignation process would be more familiar with that process than current Mormons who have never been through it.

That is absolutely the case. But it's the Mormons who have run into roadblocks are the vocal ones, not the ones who have simply gone through proper channels and had their names removed without any problems whatsoever. Far more people are outspoken about their bad experiences than are outspoken about their good (or even neutral) ones. If 100 Mormons go through suggested channels to have their names removed, and 98 of them experience no problem in doing so but 2 of them do, you can pretty much guess who you're going to hear from.

- It doesn't make sense that people who want to leave would make the process more difficult than it needs to be.

If it satisfies their need to feel vindicated, they sure as heck would. People cut off their noses to spite their faces all the time.

- I've read about Mormons choosing to leave the church in order to forestall their excommunication (for instance), and the reasons they give seem to make sense for someone who still wants to participate in the lives of their Mormon family members.

I read the article. It was an excellent one. I'm not sure how it ties in to this discussion, though, as the author has stated that she both wants to remain a Mormon and that her bishop hasn't given her any reason to think that any disciplinary measures are pending against her.

 

[Katzpur]

Oh really? That's great! And no, I've never been to the Outer Hebrides before. I've been to Skye but that's the closest I've got. I've been to a couple of touristy places: Edinburgh, Stirling and Doune Castle (that last one is where they filmed much of Monty Python & the Holy Grail ). Glad you liked it. Scotland's a wonderful place when it's not rainy or overcast. So it's a wonderful place for about half a week each year

Well, seriously, if you ever get the chance to visit Fingal's Cave, jump at it. As far as the weather is concerned, try to think back to this past September. In 30 days, we had only 4 days of rain! (Most of them were in and around York, England.) We actually drove nearly 2000 miles and saw lots of England, Scotland and Wales. (I even learned to pronounce Llandudno properly, which was quite a trick.) Beautiful scenery, charming cities and towns, wonderful people, (lousy food ).

 

[Truth_Faith13]

In a recent story about Mormons leaving the LDS Church in protest, there was something that made me curious:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...mormons-quit-church-over-new-anti-gay-policy/

Why would "lawyers and notaries" be necessary to leave a religion? LDS members: can you shed any light on this?

I have had my name removed from LDS records and all it took was a letter asking. To be honest, I could have just gone "inactive" and not attend but I wanted something official.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

The LDS Church is careful to follow the law, which varies from place to place. If they are required by law to remove a membership record based on a verbal request, then I believe they'd do it.

Yes I agree, the church follows the law well. Different topic but in the UK, you have to be married in a place everyone can attend so LDS here have to have a chapel wedding and then a temple marriage (not just a temple marriage like in USA). I cant imagine they would be different with other laws.