LDS Only: Obedience and Blessings

[zookeeper]

D&C 130:20-21 "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundation of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated -- And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."

I have a very close friend, who is in the middle of the ugliest divorce imaginable. She has been married for probably about 40 years, and has been physically and emotionally abusive for most of that time. Even though her husband has a good job, she has had to rely on Church welfare at various times, because of choices he has made. She grew up in a dysfunctional home with an alcoholic father and a mother who made her clean up after him when he came home drunk, late at night, and wet his bed. Both of her parents are now dead and she has no siblings. She has pretty much single-handedly raised five good children, including one daughter with severe heart problems. She suffers from arthritis which, at times, is almost debilitating.

I'm assuming that you meant to say she was abused not abusive...
Perhaps, her blessings were the ability to raise 5 children, by herself, who turned out well. That seems near impossible after hearing her circumstances! The good Lord must have been carrying her through much of that. Isn't that a huge blessing?
But out of curiosity ...Why would she stay with such an abusive man for all of those years? The church does not encourage staying with such a harmful person.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm assuming that you meant to say she was abused not abusive...

LOL! Yeah, it was a typo. You know, we used to be able to edit our own posts indefinitely, which was nice. Things have changed, though, and now we have to live with our stupid mistakes.

Perhaps, her blessings were the ability to raise 5 children, by herself, who turned out well. That seems near impossible after hearing her circumstances! The good Lord must have been carrying her through much of that. Isn't that a huge blessing?

Yes, her kids are all blessings to her, and she has a lot of faith in Jesus Christ. I'm sure she acknowledges all He has done for her, but it doesn't take away all of the trials she's had to experience. Somehow, it just doesn't seem fair.

But out of curiosity ...Why would she stay with such an abusive man for all of those years? The church does not encourage staying with such a harmful person.

I know. I tried to talk her into divorce years ago. Since I have such a wonderful marriage, it really was hard for me to understand her frame of mind. I know she stayed partly for her kids, even though I kept telling her that they'd be better off without their dad in the house. A big part of it was that she'd been emotionally abused for so long that her self-esteem was absolutely non-existent. She was afraid that he'd manage to get everything and that she'd end up on the streets. I knew her kids wouldn't let that happen, but I couldn't convince her. Anyway, the kids are all grown now and the youngest just got home from his mission less than a month ago. She had filed while he was gone, and it was really hard on him. It took over a year for the divorce to be finalized. She just got the good news that it was over last week. Now she just has to get her ex out of the house. He has a month.

 

[Arianna26]

As a related thought, every time I am faced with tragedy or even with a really difficult trial -- which, fortunately, nas not been often, my first thought is, "Why, God? What did I do wrong? What commandment did I not obey?" I know that's not supposed to be my reaction, but it is.

This is EXACTLY what I think too. It's funny, the original scripture you quoted is part of my patriarchal blessing, and I never really thought of it that much. I causes me to wonder what law I broke or failed to follow in order for a church leader to rape and try to kill me.

The funny thing about this whole thing is that I haven't been active in the church since that day five years ago, and have in fact done some things that are specifically against church doctrine (drinking alcohol, shopping on Sundays, not paying tithing, etc.) and this past year has been the happiest time of my entire life.

I met my husband, a non-member, who is the ONLY man that has ever treated me with complete respect and love, I bought my first home on my own which we both live in now, I am financially stable, I am emotionally stable, and I don't feel one bit of guilt.

So, now, when I am NOT following specific laws and principles of the gospel, I am the happiest I have ever been? How does that make sense? I should be in the depths of Hell right now, I am not.

Anyone care to venture a guess on that one?

 

[Starfish]

This is EXACTLY what I think too. It's funny, the original scripture you quoted is part of my patriarchal blessing, and I never really thought of it that much. I causes me to wonder what law I broke or failed to follow in order for a church leader to rape and try to kill me.

The funny thing about this whole thing is that I haven't been active in the church since that day five years ago, and have in fact done some things that are specifically against church doctrine (drinking alcohol, shopping on Sundays, not paying tithing, etc.) and this past year has been the happiest time of my entire life.

I met my husband, a non-member, who is the ONLY man that has ever treated me with complete respect and love, I bought my first home on my own which we both live in now, I am financially stable, I am emotionally stable, and I don't feel one bit of guilt.

So, now, when I am NOT following specific laws and principles of the gospel, I am the happiest I have ever been? How does that make sense? I should be in the depths of Hell right now, I am not.

Anyone care to venture a guess on that one?

Time will tell. Of course there are happy people outside of the Church. I have all those good things you listed too, and am very active in the Church. You and I could spend time arguing over who is happier, but really only time will tell.
Should you have children, you will have the challenge of raising them non-LDS. This is something I wouldn't want to attempt because the Church was a TREMENDOUS source of strength to my kids, in a world full of scary influences. They now are all grown and leading good, productive lives and raising their children in the Church. Though you can't see it now, your road will be a little harder, over time.
But that's just my opinion.

 

[FFH]

Just realized this is in same faith debates section.

I'm against divorce, it's a copout...

According to Chirst, unless your spouse is unfaithful, we should not divorce.

My mother keeps wanting to dovorce my father, I told her two nights ago, just stick it out, you have a temple marriage, Christ will work all things for our good for them who love him.

Stick it out !!! "Endure to the end".

The Savior is clear on these issues, there is no way to misunderstand these scriptures.

I nearly left my wife also, but the Lord dealt with me in a way that got my attention the very day I told her to leave, she made arrangements to leave, she felt the same way (we didn't want to stay together), but I was convicted, by the Lord, that very same day, AND ALL DAY, that it would be eternally the single most regretable mistake I could ever make in this life, which would have lasting eternal miserable consequences.

Christ will not accept divorce, unless your spouse is unfaithful. Neither of us have been unfaithful and had no excuse to part and go our seperate ways and would be throwing away an eternity with the Lord by doing so, which trumps all the garbage we may need to pass through in this life. Christ wants us to deal with it, not give up.

The Lord will work all things for our good.

2 Nephi 31: 16, 20
And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

Romans 8: 28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

D&C 90: 24
Search and diligently, pray always, and be believing, and all things shall work together for your good, if ye walk uprightly and remember the covenant wherewith ye have covenanted one with another.

Matt. 5: 31-32
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

3 Nephi 12: 31-32
31 It hath been written, that whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.

32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.


God will test us now and in the next life to see how faithful we are in times of trial, when things are not going our way.

Tithes and offerings, prayer and staying clean from the sins of this life, help to ensure we will escape trials eventually in the end.

DON'T GIVE UP !!!

To do so is to give into Satan and his lies he whispers to all of our ears and tells us it's all too late. It's never too late to reconcile with God and to our spouses, even in a divorced situation.

 

[Bishka]

Ah, just realized this is in same faith debates.

I'm against divorce, it's a copout...

According to Chirst, unless your spouse is unfaithful, we should not divorce.
.

Jesus Christ wants people to stay in abusive relationships? Well, let's go tell President Monson that, I'm sure he'd be happy to make it Church doctrine.

Your twisting of actual doctrine is sick.

It seems as if you are advocating abuse (both physical and mental) by this statement, which IS against God's plan, laws and doctrine.

 

[Arianna26]

Should you have children, you will have the challenge of raising them non-LDS. This is something I wouldn't want to attempt because the Church was a TREMENDOUS source of strength to my kids, in a world full of scary influences. They now are all grown and leading good, productive lives and raising their children in the Church. Though you can't see it now, your road will be a little harder, over time.

No worries on that one. There is no way in Hell that I am going to bring any person into this sick, twisted, awful, dirty, sinful place. I could NEVER watch my child grow up doing exactly what I was taught, and what I taught him/her to be the right things in life and then see that child crushed by someone else. I cannot control other people's actions, therefore, I will NOT subject an innocent person to this. I could not live with myself. Sorry if that sounds selfish or "bad" to other members here, but once you've lived through what I have, you would not wish it on even your very worst enemy, and there is no way I will chance that my child will be hurt in this way or any way close to this.

Maybe you're right, maybe my road will be a little harder, but I have yet to see it, and honestly, I can't imagine anything worse than what I've already been through, death would have been better.

Anyhow, I'm not trying to bash on the religion. I'm just trying to offer another point of view from someone who used to be one of the "most faithful" members of the church, and to continue the discussion on this topic. Please don't take offense by my comments, if they come across abrasive, that is not my intent. I honestly am trying to find a reason why I should re-activate myself in the church - I'm missing the connection to God and Jesus Christ that I used to feel, and I find these discussions very enlightening.

:sad:

 

[TrueBlue2]

Jesus Christ wants people to stay in abusive relationships? Well, let's go tell President Monson that, I'm sure he'd be happy to make it Church doctrine.

Your twisting of actual doctrine is sick.

It seems as if you are advocating abuse (both physical and mental) by this statement, which IS against God's plan, laws and doctrine.

Your are, of course, right Bishka. But FFH means well by his comments. He makes a good point - that we often seek divorce too quickly.

 

[TrueBlue2]

No worries on that one. There is no way in Hell that I am going to bring any person into this sick, twisted, awful, dirty, sinful place. I could NEVER watch my child grow up doing exactly what I was taught, and what I taught him/her to be the right things in life and then see that child crushed by someone else. I cannot control other people's actions, therefore, I will NOT subject an innocent person to this.

Arianna, I am truly sorry for what happened to you. From what I read here you've done a good job of not blaming yourself. You're right - there is NO reason for you to feel guilt. But does that make the whole world awful? Are you sure you want to deny yourself the EXTREME JOYS of raising your own little girl? Don't you have some good memories of life as well? Remember, they once took the Savior of the world, the most innocent and pure of all human beings, and nailed him to the cross!

I honestly am trying to find a reason why I should re-activate myself in the church - I'm missing the connection to God and Jesus Christ that I used to feel, and I find these discussions very enlightening.

The Savior stands at the door, and knocks. Don't judge the church by the actions of one man. Sorry to be a bit preachy

 

[Bishka]

Your are, of course, right Bishka. But FFH means well by his comments. He makes a good point - that we often seek divorce too quickly.

There are VERY few LDS people that actually go directly towards divorce. Many try to fix what has happened, go to their bishop, etc. etc. Most LDS who seek divorce seek it for a VERY good reason. So if my husband starts abusing me, I should stay in the relationship because trying to seek a divorce would be going "too quickly?"

 

[TrueBlue2]

There are VERY few LDS people that actually go directly towards divorce. Many try to fix what has happened, go to their bishop, etc. etc. Most LDS who seek divorce seek it for a VERY good reason. So if my husband starts abusing me, I should stay in the relationship because trying to seek a divorce would be going "too quickly?"

No, and I've got to be careful what I say here obviously. I don't condone abuse in any way, shape, or form. There are just many facets to this problem. Men are culturalized to be tough guys; there's the transgenerational problem that's handed down from one generation to the next - some are taught that's the way to solve problems. And not all abuse is physical. Women can be very abusive emotionally, and physically for that matter.

The last time I looked at LDS divorce statistics it hovered around 50%. Wow! It's hard to believe that's all related to men being abusive in relationships. It seems to me that both parties need to search their own hearts first.

 

[Bishka]

The last time I looked at LDS divorce statistics it hovered around 50%. Wow! It's hard to believe that's all related to men being abusive in relationships. It seems to me that both parties need to search their own hearts first.

There are more reasons for divorce then just abuse.

Please quote or provide a reference for the LDS divorce statistics.

 

[TrueBlue2]

I studied marriage and the family quite a bit while in college in the early '90s. At the time I had access to professional journals, and often referred to them while writing reports. Some of the articles were studies done specifically on LDS people over time. I remember the articles acknowledging that divorce rates for the LDS population were less than the US population as a whole, but that the gap was closing. At the time it was common to see US divorce rates at 50%, and divorce rates for Mormons at 45%. LDS professors at BYU, such as Brent Barlow and Doug Brinley, referred to these alarming statistics in their marriage books of the time - and I have since given mine away to my older children as they married.

I just went to LDS.org and punched in "divorce statistics" and received a series of Ensign articles, most of which are dated. Most articles will state that our divorce numbers are lower than the norm, but they still don't tell us what those stats are. I read somewhere that US divorce rates are approaching 60% so I assume the LDS divorce rate has increased as well. Elder Ballard does state in a talk given in 2007 that those who marry in the temple have FAR LESS divorce rates than average. I do not believe that the studies I read in the 90s distinguished between LDS temple marriages, and just LDS marriages.

It would be interesting to see real live statistics on this if someone knows where to find them.

 

[FFH]

Jesus Christ wants people to stay in abusive relationships? Well, let's go tell President Monson that, I'm sure he'd be happy to make it Church doctrine.

Your twisting of actual doctrine is sick.

It seems as if you are advocating abuse (both physical and mental) by this statement, which IS against God's plan, laws and doctrine.

My grandfather was a divorce court judge for the state of Utah and my father is retired from LDS Social Services and now has his own marriage counseling practice, making 80 dollars an hour.

It's a big money sucking "industry," that many lawyers and psychiatrists are taking FULL advantage of and cashing in on. My father and grandfather have made a ton of money on other people's tragedies, it's extremely sad to see divorce as the norm now, even among LDS members.

Those who have temple divorces do not fully realize what they are throwing away, that being an eternity with the Lord.

Stick it out, Satan is trying to break up temple marriages because he knows how eternally binding they really are and the blessings, those who have entered into this covenant, stand to loose throughout eternity.

Why throw away an eternity with the Lord, just because one cannot reconcile with a spouse and improve their lives.

Prayer, fasting and total obedience to the Lord can change a marriage from an abusive one to a respectful one.

SATAN gets in between my wife and I all the time, we need to keep reminding ourselves of all we have to lose for allowing this happen ALL TOO OFTEN.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm against divorce, it's a copout...

According to Chirst, unless your spouse is unfaithful, we should not divorce.

Define "unfaithful." There are more ways in which a person can be unfaithful to his or her spouse than to have an affair. There is no way a man who is abusing his wife is being faithful to her. Think about it.

 

[FFH]

Chew on this for a bit...

1 Corinthians 7: 14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

D&C 74: 1
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

 

[FFH]

Define "unfaithful." There are more ways in which a person can be unfaithful to his or her spouse than to have an affair. There is no way a man who is abusing his wife is being faithful to her. Think about it.

I'll give a perfect extreme, but real life example.

One of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostle's daughters lived in one of my past wards. She had a husband who later devulged he was gay.

It was no less than a tragic shock to this woman, who has now since remarried to a wonderful man, an absolute perfect match for her, they used to visit our home once a month for years, he was my home teacher and he had no companion willing to go with him so he would bring his wife. She also sings in the Tabernacle Choir, they are an absolutely wonderful couple, considering what they have both been through to finally find and marry each other...

God works in mysterious ways, AROUND OUR TRAGEDIES...

Make sure your reasons to divorce are actual good legitamite reasons for divorce, not just excuses.

 

[Katzpur]

Make sure your reason to divorce is an actual legitamite reason to divorce, not just a copout.

I agree that we should not divorce without good reason. Did you think I was suggesting otherwise?

 

[FFH]

I agree that we should not divorce without good reason. Did you think I was suggesting otherwise?

I don't know all the details of your friend's situation and neither do you or anyone else oustide that marriage, so we cannot judge.

All I'm saying is that if she has a temple marriage and gets a temple divorce, she better make sure it's a good reason, otherwise God will not honor her temple divorce and she could lose out on eternal blessings.

If she has a civil marriage and a civil divorce, does it really matter if she gets a divorece, in God's eyes ???

Civil marriages have no lasting eternal binding or siginicance, so does it really make any difference whether she divorces or not ???

But Christ is clear that if someone does divorce in any civil or temple marriage situation, that the person is commiting adultery if they remarry another, without having a legitimate reason for divorcing the first husband in the first place, that being "fornication," or actual sex with another man or woman, other than with your husband or wife.

The Apostle's daughter who divorced her husband, no doubt probably had sex with another man. That's an extreme but good reason to divorce your spouce.

If my wife were to have sex with another man, I have every right to get a temple divorce, and marry another woman, who has been faithful to God.

Neither one of us would ever consider doing such a thing to one another. Although we have lashed out at each other in the past on many occasions, we would never part from one another. We both dish it out pretty good, but then reconcile and realize that it's Satan who causes stupid things to come between us, threatening our eternally binding temple marriage, which SATAN ABSULUTELY HATES AND IS JEALOUS OF.

Parents AND grandparents also come between their kids marriages AND ABSOLUTELY AND PURPOSELY RUIN THEM FOR THEIR OWN SELFISH REASONS.

Divorce is rampant in the LDS culture, it's sick.

 

[FFH]

Abigail's husband was abusive to her, the Lord struck him dead, and then she was free to marry David.

It's a great story, look it up and read it again.

God is the only rightoeus all knowing/seeing/powerful judge who will judge between a couple who have been faithful to each other but may be abbusive to one another.

We are here to learn how to treat each other with love and respect, we need to allow our spouses that room to grow and improve, even in serious situations.

Things can change for the better, don't be quick to divorce.