Leaving the EU has been a disaster for the UK

[Zwing]

Actually it seems to me the chief risk to the future integrity of the EU is absorbing too many new countries that may not be ready, in terms of institutional and democratic stability. I'm thinking of the former Warsaw pact countries that are currently candidates, and Ukraine.

I don’t think that you will have to worry about Ukraine, as it’s days seem, possibly, numbered.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Brexit was passed on the basis of nativism, not sound economics, and now the chickens are coming home to roost.

I wish our southern states would Sexit...

 

[Zwing]

I wish our southern states would Sexit...

Hey, I’m in! I love anything to do with sexing!

 

[Altfish]

That’s not what I am suggesting. What the heck does it mean to “be European”? What is the “European language”, the “European culture”? European is a geographic, and not an ethnic identifier. Hell, sometimes I even wonder, “what exactly the hell is ‘an American’?”, and “American” is much closer to being an ethnicity than “European”, the constituents at least being fairly united in language and culture. Sorry, but I think that ethnicity, that ethnos is very important. It is a source of pride. Maybe that is only because of the milieu in which I grew, but that is how I feel.

It is good you brought up Trump, because the Trump drama suggests what kind of abberations can happen due to prevailing sentiment within a democratic system.

I feel more European than English. I'm embarrassed to be English
England has turned into a xenophobic, hateful country; hopefully it is starting to change.
I can relate to people being Scottish, but banging the drum for England is all about St George's flags, hating foreigners, bragging about the empire and longing for the past.
Europe is about the future, co-operation, compassion ... that's what we have thrown away.

 

[Yerda]

I'm embarrassed to be English

Madness.

In my experience English people are typically as compassionate and open minded as Germans or French or Scottish people. We all have our yahoos with daft ideas about identity, we don't let them ruin it for the rest of us.

 

[Zwing]

I feel more European than English. I'm embarrassed to be English

That is a shame. You should be incredibly proud to be English. Man, the English made themselves into the premier people of Europe. Because of their particular characteristics, they were historically able to do more with less than any other people in the world, creating the most extensive empire of history and making your language the international standard, but I’m not telling you anything that you don’t already know.

England has turned into a xenophobic…country

Perhaps it’s not xenophobia, perhaps just plain old pride.

 

[exchemist]

That’s not what I am suggesting. What the heck does it mean to “be European”? What is the “European language”, the “European culture”? European is a geographic, and not an ethnic identifier. Hell, sometimes I even wonder, “what exactly the hell is ‘an American’?”, and “American” is much closer to being an ethnicity than “European”, the constituents at least being fairly united in language and culture. Sorry, but I think that ethnicity, that ethnos is very important. It is a source of pride. Maybe that is only because of the milieu in which I grew, but that is how I feel.

It is good you brought up Trump, because the Trump drama suggests what kind of abberations can happen due to prevailing sentiment within a democratic system.

I think there is a European culture. We share a common history, basically going back to the Roman Empire and then, later, two principal strands of Christianity (Catholic and Orthodox) from which a large part of our common heritage (architecture, music, literature, aspects of politics and much more) derives. The various empires and ruling houses that have come and gone make us all interconnected in many ways. Our artists and scholars have often transcended national boundaries and so has trade. Many of us think of ourselves as Europeans and for many, certainly me, it was a source of pride to reflect on our common access to this rich heritage.

Every person is in fact a member of numerous overlapping identity categories. There is nothing mutually exclusive about being British versus being European. Like many of my countrymen, I have both lived for a while in another European country (The Netherlands), and married someone from another, different one (France). In fact, I find it hard to forgive my country of birth for snatching away the European citizenship I valued so much. This is a not uncommon feeling.

 

[exchemist]

I don’t think that you will have to worry about Ukraine, as it’s days seem, possibly, numbered.

I find that a remarkable statement, which to my mind starts to call into question your judgement - and perhaps even your motives.

 

[Zwing]

In fact, I find it hard to forgive my country of birth for snatching away the European citizenship I valued so much. This is a not uncommon feeling.

Well, don’t feel too bad, because I think that the current world order will probably change drastically over the next couple or three hundred of years, in ways that we cannot even imagine. The agent of change, of course, will be climate change, which at this point I think inevitable.

 

[Zwing]

Madness.

Well said!

 

[Zwing]

I find that a remarkable statement, which to my mind starts to call into question your judgement - and perhaps even your motives.

Please spare me the dramatic soliloquy. It’s just an observation of what would seem obvious. Russia has her all to himself, with all the time in the world, and nobody’s gonna do squat. Russia (the Bolsheviks) created the independent Ukraine in the first place, so he’s her daddy, and like Bill Cosby once said in his skit, he told his kids “I’m your daddy. I brought you into the world, and I can take you out.” More seriously, I feel that there’ll be an Ukraine after all is said and done, but one with much different borders. Personally, I think the Dneiper River would make a wonderfully well-defined natural southwestern border for Russia, and Ukraine would be left with the greater part of its territory.

 

[Altfish]

That is a shame. You should be incredibly proud to be English. Man, the English made themselves into the premier people of Europe. Because of their particular characteristics, they were historically able to do more with less than any other people in the world, creating the most extensive empire of history and making your language the international standard, but I’m not telling you anything that you don’t already know.

Perhaps it’s not xenophobia, perhaps just plain old pride.

When I am asked for my nationality I never say English. If it is an official asking, I'll say British; if it is a member of the public, I'll say European.

If 'plain old pride' includes hating people of colour or anyone who is different from then, then yes it may be.

 

[Estro Felino]

I think there is a European culture. We share a common history, basically going back to the Roman Empire and then, later, two principal strands of Christianity (Catholic and Orthodox) from which a large part of our common heritage (architecture, music, literature, aspects of politics and much more) derives. The various empires and ruling houses that have come and gone make us all interconnected in many ways. Our artists and scholars have often transcended national boundaries and so has trade. Many of us think of ourselves as Europeans and for many, certainly me, it was a source of pride to reflect on our common access to this rich heritage.

Every person is in fact a member of numerous overlapping identity categories. There is nothing mutually exclusive about being British versus being European. Like many of my countrymen, I have both lived for a while in another European country (The Netherlands), and married someone from another, different one (France). In fact, I find it hard to forgive my country of birth for snatching away the European citizenship I valued so much. This is a not uncommon feeling.

Switzerland is the emblem of the European culture, but is not part of the EU.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Switzerland is the emblem of the European culture, but is not part of the EU.

"status" is not just about politics .. what about the Swiss banks?

 

[exchemist]

Please spare me the dramatic soliloquy. It’s just an observation of what would seem obvious. Russia has her all to himself, with all the time in the world, and nobody’s gonna do squat. Russia (the Bolsheviks) created the independent Ukraine in the first place, so he’s her daddy, and like Bill Cosby once said in his skit, he told his kids “I’m your daddy. I brought you into the world, and I can take you out.” More seriously, I feel that there’ll be an Ukraine after all is said and done, but one with much different borders. Personally, I think the Dneiper River would make a wonderfully well-defined natural southwestern border for Russia, and Ukraine would be left with the greater part of its territory.

Fine, so on thinking about it, you have changed your mind, then. That makes more sense. Seeing as no one is going to invade Russia to topple the regime, it seems likely there will have to be a negotiated peace. That may involve some cession of territory to Russia, objectionable though that might seem.

As a matter of history, it is wrong to say the Bolsheviks created Ukraine. Ukraine formed the major part of Kievan Rus' in the Middle Ages, became part of the Poland-Lithuanian commonwealth and was only absorbed into the Russian Empire in the c.18th.

 

[Zwing]

If 'plain old pride' includes hating people of colour or anyone who is different from then, then yes it may be.

But, surely you exaggerate…

 

[ChristineM]

But, surely you exaggerate…

I would say he doesn't, it's a typical little England, British empire stance held by many British

 

[Zwing]

As a matter of history, it is wrong to say the Bolsheviks created Ukraine. Ukraine formed the major part of Kievan Rus' in the Middle Ages, became part of the Poland-Lithuanian commonwealth and was only absorbed into the Russian Empire in the c.18th.

Yes, because of the controversy surrounding the question, I verified the historicity of the historical independence of Ukraine myself. You are right to say that Ukraine “formed a part” of other polities all throughout history. It seems to have simply been viewed as a region or territory to be fought over since time immemorial. The point is, it was never an independent nation, and “the Ukraine” was ever more of a geographic term than a political one. The first time that Ukraine ever became a (though dependent) state of any kind was as a Soviet socialist republic. As to whether you can even consider Ukrainians to represent an ethnic group of Slavs, your guess is as good as mine. I’m quite anarchistic with respect to the territorial nation state, so I don’t particularly view these types of things through a statist lens. Perhaps influenced by that, I kind of view the Russians and Ukrainians as one people, as much as southern Americans and northern Americans are, for instance. The Ukrainian language could possibly be called a dialect or variety of Russian, after all.

I don’t want to divert this thread into a discussion about the Ukraine, though.

 

[Zwing]

I would say he doesn't, it's a typical little England, British empire stance held by many British

Hmmmm…

 

[ChristineM]

Hmmmm…

It's one of several reasons we have left England. We left well before Brexit because racism and xenophobia was pretty bad. After Brexit it went ballistic. Police records show a dramatic increase in hate crime.