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Lecture: Is science the only way...

Logikal

Member
This follows from the fact that "The Scientific Method" is a pedagogical fiction? In his book Science and Common Sense, famed scientist and former president of Harvard James B. Conan remarks (in a chapter with the provocative title “Concerning the alleged scientific method”) that “[t]here is no such thing as the scientific method. If there were, surely an examination of the history of physics, chemistry and biology would reveal it.”

I said there is no scientific method. Don't worry, this has come up before, and you are hardly alone among non-scientists to express this view:
“Pre-college students, and the general public for that matter, believe in a distorted view of scientific inquiry that has resulted from schooling, the media, and the format of most scientific reports. This distorted view is called THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD.” (emphasis added)
Lederman, N. G. (1999). EJSE Editorial: The State of Science Education: Subject Matter Without Context. Electronic Journal of Science Education, 3(2).

And just because I can:

“One of the most widely held misconceptions about science is the existence of the scientific method....The myth of the scientific method is regularly manifested in the belief that there is a recipe-like stepwise procedure that all scientists follow when they do science. This notion was explicitly debunked: There is no single scientific method that would guarantee the development of infallible knowledge (AAAS, 1993; Bauer, 1994; Feyerabend, 1993; NRC, 1996; Shapin, 1996).” (emphases added)
Lederman, N. G., Abd-El-Khalick, F., Bell, R. L., & Schwartz, R. (2002). Views of nature of science questionnaire: Toward valid and meaningful assessment of learners’ conceptions of nature of science. Journal of Research in Science Teaching, 39, 497–521.

"The model of ‘scientific method’ that probably reflects many people’s understanding is one of scientific knowledge being ‘proved’ through experiments...That is, the ‘experimental method’ offers a way of uncovering true knowledge of the world, providing that we plan our experiments logically, and carefully collect sufficient data. In this way, our rational faculty is applied to empirical evidence to prove (or otherwise) scientific hypotheses. This is a gross simplification, and misrepresentation, of how science actually occurs, but unfortunately it has probably been encouraged by the impoverished image of the nature of science commonly reflected in school science." (emphasis added)
Taber, K. S. (2009). Progressing Science Education: Constructing the Scientific Research Programme into the Contingent Nature of Learning Science (Science & Technology Education Library Vol. 37). Springer.

"there is no single 'Scientific Method'... Scientists do observe, compare, measure, test, speculate, hypothesize, debate, create ideas and conceptual tools, and construct theories and explanations. However, there is no single sequence of (practical, conceptual, or logical) activities that will unerringly lead them to valid claims, let alone ‘certain’ knowledge." (emphasis added)
Abd‐El‐Khalick, F., Waters, M., & Le, A. P. (2008). Representations of nature of science in high school chemistry textbooks over the past four decades. Journal of Research in Science Teaching, 45(7), 835-855.

"a focus on practices (in the plural) avoids the mistaken impression that there is one distinctive approach common to all science—a single “scientific method”—or that uncertainty is a universal attribute of science. In reality, practicing scientists employ a broad spectrum of methods" (emphasis added)
Schweingruber, H., Keller, T., & Quinn, H. (Eds.). (2012). A Framework for K-12 Science Education: Practices, Crosscutting Concepts, and Core Ideas. Committee on a Conceptual Framework for New K-12 Science Education Standards. National Research Council’s Board on Science Education, Division of Behavioral and Social Sciences and Education.

"there is no one way to ‘do’ science. Methods and practices vary widely across fields, institutions, and individuals. Even the U.S. National Science Teachers Association (NSTA) asserts, contrary to decades-old school lore, that 'no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science' (National Science Teachers Association, 2000). Amidst this array of approaches to doing science, there exists considerable debate amongst the general public and academics from a range of disciplines about how to characterize scientific inquiry."
Grotzer, T. A., Miller, R. B., & Lincoln, R. A. (2012). Perceptual, Attentional, and Cognitive Heuristics That Interact with the Nature of Science to Complicate Public Understanding of Science. In M. S. Khine (Ed.). Advances in Nature of Science Research: Concepts and Methodologies (pp. 27-49). Springer.

“In Science for All Americans, the AAAS advocated the achievement of scientific literacy by all U.S. high school students...(American Association for the Advancement of Science, 1989). This seminal report described science as tentative (striving toward objectivity within the constraints of human fallibility) and as a social enterprise, while also discussing the durability of scientific theories, the importance of logical reasoning, and the lack of a single scientific method.” (emphasis added)
Schweingruber, H. A., Hilton, M. L., & Singer, S. R. (Eds.). (2005). America's Lab Report::Investigations in High School Science. Committee on High School Laboratoriers: Role and Vision. Board on Science Education, Center for Education, National Research Council.

"Ask a scientist what he concevies the scientific method to be, and he will adopt an expression that is at once solemn and shifty-eyed: solemn, because he feels he ought to declare an opinion; shifty-eyed, because he is wondering how to conceal the fact that he has no opinion to declare"
Medawar, P. B. (1969). Induction and intuition in Scientific Thought. American Philosophical Society.
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Your quotes are admirable but the so called scientist are not using terms properly. You and THEY are nit picking about the literal steps involved in a scientific enquiry. The so called SCIENTIFIC METHOD is usually understood in all sciences because all sciences have these concepts involved: a hypothesis, research, test of the hypothesis via EXPERIMENT, analyzing the data, publishing the results of the data for peers to review, re-evaluate the hypothesis. There is no such thing of a science that does do those things!!! I did not mention the concepts have to be done in that ORDER nor did I say how many times can you repeatedly use one concept, etc. If there were a BILLION steps a particular scientist had to use it would involve the same steps! You are trying to make things subjective and case by case by doing what you are doing. The authors above are misusing the terminology. Some one should inform them of the correct context! SCIENCE requires experimentation. All things that require experimentation are things that CANNOT BE CERTAIN because the result of an experiment can be different from other identical experiments. In a chemistry 101 lab a student can do the exact same experiment using the same chemical components and get different results. THIS IS WHY SCIENCE IS SCIENCE.
On the other hand, there is a form of knowledge that does not require science or USE OF OUR SENSES. Humans can define words and classify things about the world without any experimentation such as numbers, bachelors, triangles, mammal, atheist, etc. All of those things can be understood without using any of our senses and does not require experiment to understand. Perhaps YOU CAN use senses on them if you DESIRE but it is NOT REQUIRED. All things are NOT science. Music is not a science, gymnastics is not a science, rhetoric is not a science, etc. I do not know what PLANET those scientists are from but on EARTH all sciences MUST involve the physical senses and at the end of the day that is all that matters. The ARTS for instance can involve the physical senses but the result is not dependent on the SENSES alone. The arts I mentioned are more CONCEPT focused. The physical result does not guarantee ANYTHING but the QUALITY of the concept DOES guarantee better results. Judo for instance is an ART: how I throw my opponent matters in how I MAKE HIM LAND. I MAKE HIM come off his feet and land flat on his back all the while controlling HIM and keeping my FORM. The same concepts apply to gymnastics: form matters (aka Quality). A person who falls off the parallel bars will score less than the person who does the same routine and DOES NOT FALL. Both people do the SAME PHYSICAL THING but one is of higher QUALITY than the other. Science people are not to good with concepts it seems. Scientist care about only the physical part and not the quality. I would say almost ALL (or in fact ALL) knowledge is induced by experience of some kind. This does not make everything science. How we know makes the distinction. With science we MUST use physical senses: sight, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, etc. The things that are not science do not FOCUS on the senses as much. The fact there are people that think gymnastics is a sport literally shows they don't do well (understand) with concepts that much. The fact that people mislabel things frequently still does not stop people from taking the side of popularity. Science is clearly not the only way to learn something. TO KNOW is a phrase if uttered by a scientist REQUIRES sense verification. To an average Joe on the street TO KNOW simply meant be familiar with . . . .. CONTEXT is key --not the dictionary.
 

Logikal

Member
...to know anything about anything?

http://christianevidence.org/blog/entry/is_science_the_only_way_to_know_anything_about_anything

The link contains a video of the lecture. In it Peter Williams argues that the belief that science is the only way of gaining knowledge is scientism which is self-contradictory and ultimately anti-scientific.

He then presents a couple of arguments that point towards God's existence which you've probably seen before but he gives it enough nuance to make it interesting (well, to me anyway). He first attempts to show that a universe from nothing is philosophically unsound. From nothing comes nothing and attempts to describe the physical situation where the quantum vacuum is nothing are problematic. His first argument follows from this. Syllogistically it goes something like:

P.The available evidence suggest the universe has a beginning. This means, he argues, that there is a first physical event.

P.Every physical event has a causal relationship to other events. A first physical event cannot be caused by another physical event (due to the meaning of the word first).

C.Therefore the first physical event has a non-physical cause.

It seems valid insofar as the conclusion follows from the premises. I don't know enough cosmology or metaphysics to say whether the premises are sturdy. I invite you people to comment.

The next argument is a design based that I find suspicious because he invokes William Lane Craig and William Dembski who both strike me as untrustworthy and it seems to argue against the evidence of biological evolution - but we can get around to that later.

By way of balance here is the rational wiki page on the cosmological argument. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_first_cause

For the record, I'm an atheist.

Your syllogistic argument needs a whole lot of WORK!!
Let's start with your premises:

Premise one: "The available evidence suggest the universe has a beginning. . . "

What evidence suggests the universe has a beginning? Are you referring to the EXPLOSION from nothing?
Both the Big Bang and Cosmological arguments share the same form; what is true for one will also be true in the other.

"This means, he argues, that there is a first physical event. " No it does not It means and looks like that is YOU saying that --not him.

Premise 2: "Every physical event has a causal relationship to other events. " I am not sure where this claim comes from but all it takes is one instance of a physical event that has NO causal relationship to other events to PROVE the claim FALSE.
The claim needs more details because you can run many different ways with the claim as you stated it. How does scratching an itch on my eye lid relate to other events? Are the events even relevant or related?

"A first physical event cannot be caused by another physical event (due to the meaning of the word first)."

Again skeptically staying neutral you should be thinking that there should be no atoms or dust in space for an explosion to occur. What evidence does science have if there is NOTHING to start with?

You allowing the existence of atoms or anything also allows the theist to place God in the "already there spot" as well.

This is not about YOU but your interpretation of the argument above. The argument must be better than your understanding of it. A valid argument does not really mean much in REALITY. A valid argument does not make the argument true which is what you seem to be after here: TRUTH is what you care about. So please assume the argument is VALID what are your issues with it? To dismiss an argument because it is invalid is a cop out. A better user can validate the argument and what would you have then? Do not attack something weak just for the sake of it. Attack the strongest version of something and you will get more out of it as far as truth and relevancy.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Your syllogistic argument needs a whole lot of WORK!!
Let's start with your premises:

Premise one: "The available evidence suggest the universe has a beginning. . . "

What evidence suggests the universe has a beginning? Are you referring to the EXPLOSION from nothing?
Both the Big Bang and Cosmological arguments share the same form; what is true for one will also be true in the other.

"This means, he argues, that there is a first physical event. " No it does not It means and looks like that is YOU saying that --not him.

Premise 2: "Every physical event has a causal relationship to other events. " I am not sure where this claim comes from but all it takes is one instance of a physical event that has NO causal relationship to other events to PROVE the claim FALSE.
The claim needs more details because you can run many different ways with the claim as you stated it. How does scratching an itch on my eye lid relate to other events? Are the events even relevant or related?

"A first physical event cannot be caused by another physical event (due to the meaning of the word first)."

Again skeptically staying neutral you should be thinking that there should be no atoms or dust in space for an explosion to occur. What evidence does science have if there is NOTHING to start with?

You allowing the existence of atoms or anything also allows the theist to place God in the "already there spot" as well.

This is not about YOU but your interpretation of the argument above. The argument must be better than your understanding of it. A valid argument does not really mean much in REALITY. A valid argument does not make the argument true which is what you seem to be after here: TRUTH is what you care about. So please assume the argument is VALID what are your issues with it? To dismiss an argument because it is invalid is a cop out. A better user can validate the argument and what would you have then? Do not attack something weak just for the sake of it. Attack the strongest version of something and you will get more out of it as far as truth and relevancy.
Thanks for the input.

Regarding your question about the evidence for the universe having a beginning, if you watch the lecture then you'll see the sources that he cites. They are all reasonable enough in my opinion. I admit I have some issues with his premises but for reasons other than those you have raised.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The so called SCIENTIFIC METHOD is usually understood in all sciences because all sciences have these concepts involved: a hypothesis, research, test of the hypothesis via EXPERIMENT, analyzing the data, publishing the results of the data for peers to review, re-evaluate the hypothesis.
1) This defines much pseudo-science too, and doesn't allow for many scientific theories (particularly those in fields like particle physics and extensions of QM).
2) Hypotheses are generally intricately tied to (and originating from) the theories they seek to "test" (at least if we try to adopt something like "The Scientific Method" misconception; a better description would be that hypotheses are generated from theories and seek to test and expand the theories that they are generated from).
3) The distinction between theory and hypothesis is blurred to the point that we have theories of hypothesis testing and a large portion of research across the sciences explicitly state that they are testing aspects of particular theories already established.
4) Hypotheses are basically never re-evaluated. The textbook "Scientific Method" (i.e., something like "Formulate hypothesis, test it, and if it is repeatedly confirmed call it a theory") was an idealization of 18th and 19th century scientific experimentation, and is wholly unsuited as a description of modern scientific research. The kinds of experiments used to teach high school and even university students The Scientific Method instead teach how seemingly isolated hypothesis could be tested independent of theory by relying on upon idealizations of classical experiments divorced from context. Yet that was when science was in its infancy, and the influence of context and theoretical frameworks was minimal enough to not be appreciated. This little myth was annihilated when the entirety of physics came crashing down from an epistemological crises resulting from centuries of debate over which of two hypotheses were correct when in fact neither were and the only reason this wasn't realized earlier was because theory dictated the hypotheses. Now, the interconnectedness of experiments with various theoretical framework, theories of research design, theory-laden interpretations, etc., make the notion of re-testing hypothesis largely impossible, particularly as hypothesis testing is in many sciences merely a formal, binary statement explicitly tied to an experimental design and statistical methodology.

There is no such thing of a science that does do those things!!!
All of them (providing we include the "re-test hypotheses"). Barring that, what you've described isn't a method. And as concepts, they are all practiced outside the sciences, from pseudoscientific nonsense history. Meanwhile, the application of these concepts removes from vital methods from the scientist's toolbox, such as thought-experiments (which can't result in any data to analyze), the mathematical derivation of theories which gave us quantum mechanics, quantum electrodynamics, quantum field theory, most of particle physics, all of M-theory (untestable) and other incarnations of string theory (untestable), supersymmetry (untestable), the Church-Turing thesis (which motivates research in a vast swathe of fields such as computer science, cognitive science, neuroscience, etc.), and so on.

If there were a BILLION steps a particular scientist had to use it would involve the same steps!
Those aren't steps, they aren't distinct, and not all of them are generally used or even ever used.

You are trying to make things subjective and case by case by doing what you are doing.
I'm actually trying to fix a disconnect I have found to exist increasingly between scientists and non-scientists that organizations such as the National Academy of Sciences and the AAAS (among others) have likewise identified.

The authors above are misusing the terminology.
Among "the authors" are basically the most influential, most important, and largest scientific societies/associations in the world.

Some one should inform them of the correct context! SCIENCE requires experimentation.
Quantum electrodynamics was derived independently of experimentation using mathematics. The most cited physics paper (EPR) written which (along with another paper by Bell in the 60s) influenced the nature of a large class of experiments first carried out in the 80s did not, itself, use any experiments. A great deal of research in neuroscience, linguistics, cognitive psychology, etc., has relied on 'hypotheses" that were formulated by Roman grammarians borrowing from ancient Greek Grammarians a few thousand years ago. There exists nearly a century of research and experimentation on the validity and soundness of the central method of hypothesis testing across a large number of sciences. Physics beyond the standard model remains largely untestable, but as most of the standard model doesn't allow for the distinguishing between the mathematical representations of systems in experiments and whatever they are experimenting on nor the results, this isn't as problematic as it would have been regarded a century ago. What was until recently the majority view of the nature of language in psychology, cognitive science, neuroscience, etc., and remains incredibly influential was constructed without any experiments. Information theory was derived using notions form physics without any experiments. I could go on, but the point is that although the sciences do require experimentation, this does not demarcate what is and isn't science as experiments can be conducted outside of the sciences and the incredibly important advances within the sciences can require no experiments.

THIS IS WHY SCIENCE IS SCIENCE.
Science is science because of Chem 101 students?
Humans can define words and classify things about the world without any experimentation such as numbers, bachelors, triangles, mammal, atheist, etc. All of those things can be understood without using any of our senses and does not require experiment to understand.
Interesting. I happen to know of a few labs at Harvard and at least one at MIT that devote much time and many experiments in an attempt to understand exactly what you are talking about. In fact, one of the most important questions in perhaps the largest interdisciplinary science (the cognitive sciences, which include fields ranging from philosophy and linguistics to physics and computer science) is how humans do this as such categorization is the central cognitive mechanism not just for humans but animals as well, although for animals such classification is non-linguistic. Most of machine learning and AI is devoted to trying to understand how humans "classify things about the world" using experiments in an attempt to create programs that can mimic this.

Perhaps YOU CAN use senses on them if you DESIRE but it is NOT REQUIRED.
Actually, scientists disagree over the nature of how words defined (and even what they are or if they exist), are mostly in agreement that none of these things are understood by our senses (or really understood at all by anyone thanks to distinctions such as Ausdruck/Bedeutung, parole/langue, intersubjectivity, etc.), and finally the definitions. In fact, "bachelor" is a classic example used by cognitive scientists who focus on language to show the problems with a non-contextual, "dictionary"-like lexicon (is the Pope a bachelor?).

All things are NOT science.
Nobody said they were.
I do not know what PLANET those scientists are from but on EARTH all sciences MUST involve the physical senses and at the end of the day that is all that matters.
First you say that "All things are NOT science" and then you state that sciences "Must involve" something all people use all the time.

The ARTS for instance can involve the physical senses but the result is not dependent on the SENSES alone.
Neither are the sciences, obviously. Assuming you agree that logic is important to the scientific endeavor, then we have an easy example of a vital tool for scientists that isn't a sense.

Judo for instance is an ART
Developed by Jigoro Kano using principles from physics and experimentation (as opposed to the much more spiritual route of O Sensei Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido, despite the common set of traditions they individually adopted and adapted to form their respective styles). Judo relied on principles of physics and years of testing, reformulation, and further experiment. It is not a science, however. Yet it conforms to your "model" of what "science" must be.

With science we MUST use physical senses
But not Judo? Or Gymnastics? What senses are used for these?

The things that are not science do not FOCUS on the senses as much.
You think gymnasts and martial artists rely less on senses than particle physicists who work with systems primarily described mathematically and to the extent they are "observed" (despite the fact that obervables here are mathematical functions) it is through highly indirect methods such as the detection of scattering from colliders or ion traps or NMR. Not only can we not see subatomic particles, but we cannot indirectly observe them without non-trivially disturbing the measurements we would like to make.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Consider the following sequence of (natural) causes/effects leading to object X:

1) X has been caused by X1 (1/2 hours ago)
2) X1 has been caused by X2 (1/2 + 1/4 hours ago)
3) X2 has been caused by X3 (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 hours ago)
4) X3 has been caused by X4 (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 hours ago)
And so on, ad infinitum.

Here we have a Possible universe consisting of X and infinite Xn, all caused by an antecedent, unfolding in one hour, and without a first cause.

Ergo, the fact that all natural things have been caused by natural things does not entail that there must be a first cause, not even if the chain of events takes place in finite time, as my counter example illustrates. In other words, the argument makes an unsubstantiated assumption with a sleight of hand, and it is therefore invalid.

This is just one of the several ways to destroy these sorts of cosmological arguments.

Ciao

- viole
You are using a sequence and countable infinity. Sequences (and series) are ordered, such that there must be a first member/term/etc. I am not sure how this defeats the "argument" in question (although this could be sleep deprivation).
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
You are using a sequence and countable infinity. Sequences (and series) are ordered, such that there must be a first member/term/etc. I am not sure how this defeats the "argument" in question (although this could be sleep deprivation).

Yes, but not necessarily a last one. Which, in this case, would be the first if we look towards the past. Here I m looking for the first cause (the last in the sequence) by observing the last effect and going down the causation chain.

It affects the argument because it infers, somehow, that there is a first cause that cries for an explanation.But in this case there is no first cause under the same other assumptions of the argument (that everything is the cause of something).

Here we have a Universe where everything is the cause of something. The whole sequence is time limited, and yet there is no lowest bound necessarily belonging to the universe. And no need to explain it, since it does not exist, necessarily, even though it is an accumulation point of causes.

The argument would have a (small) chance only by explicitely set the premise that the Universe is closed for the set of causes. Ergo, it contains its boundary. But this premise does not exist in the argument. For obvious reasons, I think. It would just show its question begging character from the start.

Ciao

- viole
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But in this case there is no first cause under the same other assumptions of the argument (that everything is the cause of something).
But that isn't the assumption. Rather, the argument postulates a causal relationship between all events. The point is to assert that nothing is uncaused which, together with a finite past, means (so the argument goes) that nothing could happen unless there exists a unique event such that the causal relationship between that event and any other was only "forward". Granting that the universe began to exist (in accordance with the standard model and the big bang theory), then there was a first physical event (the big bang). Given that a "first physical event cannot be caused by another physical event", then the existence of a first physical event implies a non-physical cause (assuming a rather naïve linear causality that is applied to a state of affairs in which no physics exist). .
Here we have a Universe where everything is the cause of something.
Not quite. Given this linear causality, there must be exist an effect that exists "now" which hasn't caused anything (because nothing has happened since this effect that could be caused). Rather, everything must have a cause and causes precede effects.

The whole sequence is time limited, and yet there is no lowest bound necessarily belonging to the universe.
Are you arguing that granted the universe began to exist there is no lowest bound, or that the big bang doesn't constitute a bounding event such that no physical event occurred before it? Or something else?
And no need to explain it, since it does not exist, necessarily, even though it is an accumulation point of causes.

The argument would have a (small) chance only by explicitly set the premise that the Universe is closed for the set of causes.
The argument assumes (with reference to "the available evidence", presumably from physics) that the universe began and that this was the first physical event. Together with the assumption that every physical event has a causal relationship to other events and that a first physical event can't have a cause, we get the necessary bounds, no?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
But that isn't the assumption. Rather, the argument postulates a causal relationship between all events. The point is to assert that nothing is uncaused which, together with a finite past, means (so the argument goes) that nothing could happen unless there exists a unique event such that the causal relationship between that event and any other was only "forward". Granting that the universe began to exist (in accordance with the standard model and the big bang theory), then there was a first physical event (the big bang). Given that a "first physical event cannot be caused by another physical event", then the existence of a first physical event implies a non-physical cause (assuming a rather naïve linear causality that is applied to a state of affairs in which no physics exist). .

Not quite. Given this linear causality, there must be exist an effect that exists "now" which hasn't caused anything (because nothing has happened since this effect that could be caused). Rather, everything must have a cause and causes precede effects.


Are you arguing that granted the universe began to exist there is no lowest bound, or that the big bang doesn't constitute a bounding event such that no physical event occurred before it? Or something else?
And no need to explain it, since it does not exist, necessarily, even though it is an accumulation point of causes.


The argument assumes (with reference to "the available evidence", presumably from physics) that the universe began and that this was the first physical event. Together with the assumption that every physical event has a causal relationship to other events and that a first physical event can't have a cause, we get the necessary bounds, no?

It all bolis down to what we mean with "the universe had a beginning" (neglecting for the moment the block universe interpretation or what we really mean with causation).

Does it mean that the Universe is bounded, or that there was a first physical event causing all the others?

I think the argument equivocates on them. It is not necessary that the former entails the latter.

Actually, I think the latter is self contradictory. If we identify the beginning with a first physical entity, then the Universe at that time consisted of one single physical entity. Period. Did the Universe began there? i don't see how, since it makes sense to consider that one single entity as the whole Universe. Claiming that it cannot be the first (unqualified) entity would just beg the question.

To make it more explicit, if that single physical entity is the beginning of the Universe then it Is the beginning of itself too, if it belongs to the Universe or it is a state thereof. And if it does not belong to the Universe then, well, we revert to the semi open set of my argument or we contradict ourselves by excluding some physical entities from the set of all things that constitute the Universe, when defined as the set of all physical things.

Ciao

- viole
 
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